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9:00 AM
@Zoidberg Something for RoR
 
user142019
Gonna rollback. :P
 
@sehe No, it should not. It rewards bad behaviour.
 
user142019
@sehe RoR?
 
Ruby on Rails?
 
@Zoidberg 145 questions, not bad.
 
user142019
9:01 AM
@TonyTheLion NO REALLY??! But what's with RoR?
 
Personally, I think this is my pest analogy to date :P
 
@Zoidberg The sound lions make.
 
user142019
Ah.
 
user142019
Ruby on Rails was the buzzword of 2011.
 
user142019
It's not cool anymore. Use Node.js and MongoDB. They're web scale.
 
9:02 AM
lol
I don't do buzzwords
 
user142019
Me neither.
 
@TonyTheLion buzzword is a buzzword
 
yomomma is a buzzword
 
user142019
A few days ago I found a buzzword gem.
 
user142019
It was a slogan with like seven buzzwords.
 
9:03 AM
Btw, I wrote this tag wiki stackoverflow.com/tags/blinking/info
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes relevant
 
It's actually better than some of crap I have seen today.
 
we're all about the buzzwords, we are all lean and agile and synergy and hyperbolic with scrum and web 5.0
 
the has top answerers :P
@thecoshman oh gawd.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Does it? I'm not so sure. If anything, it would hint the OP why his question goes unanswered. As a matter of fact, on a handful of occasions I have even actively followed 'repeat offenders' (by dropping their activity feed in my RSS reader) so I could try 'to straighten them out'. Roughly, this worked in 3 out of 5 cases, I'd say
 
9:06 AM
@sehe It won't make the question be answered.
 
^ I don't care much for the review queue...
 
@TonyTheLion sad thing is, I wish I was exaggerating
 
Xeo
Gawd, I don't remember DaemonTools pressing so much on installing shit to my system.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes So? I'm not sure what you're trying to say there
 
@sehe The editor will go on making those lousy edits, because they get approved.
 
9:07 AM
@Xeo oh, it's been a long time since I've had need for that :P
 
0
Q: Why to avoid std::enable_if in function signatures

hansmaadScott Meyers posted content and status of his next book EC++11. He wrote that one item in the book could be "Avoid std::enable_if in function signatures". std::enable_if can be used as a function argument, as a return type or as a class template or function template parameter to conditionally re...

for repwhores who are also smart
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes O shit. That's the thing. Why should I be concerned that other people want to waste time? The way I see it, the editor lost valuable time doing, effectively "diaper cleaning" on total noobs or just forum-sociopaths. Why is it so bad? Because of badges?!
 
Xeo
@thecoshman Installing VS2012 at work.
 
@Xeo 2hrs of wait fun
 
9:09 AM
@sehe Because they also waste the time of the reviewers.
 
@Xeo oh, it's been a long time since I've had need for that :P
 
It takes very little effort to make that kind of edit.
(There is a reason one of the reject reasons is "too minor".)
 
Xeo
@TonyTheLion Rather, force-restart fun.
 
user142019
phpBB is a nightmare.
 
9:11 AM
it works, shut up
 
user142019
"Let's make the most terrible settings the default!"
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not unless you do... review
 
¬_¬ some people don't have enough to occupy their time
 
9:12 AM
@Zoidberg it's PHP, you can't expect anything else
 
@sehe Having to take two or more people's time to review an edit on an ALL CAPS post that changes one word is not something I consider positive.
 
user142019
@thecoshman you accidentally a word.
 
I'd say the review queue is a failure, and there is little more to make that clear than by leaving it. Since you obviously agree that the way it works encourages wasting reviewer time, why do you review? That's "keeping a bad system in place" in a way.
 
@TonyTheLion no no no, as shit as php is, you can't excuse idiotic developers making idiotic decisions about what idiotic settings they want as default
 
user142019
"Accidentally" should by listed as a verb in Oxford Dictionary.
 
9:14 AM
@sehe No, what I say wastes reviewer time is having lots and lots of one word edits to review.
 
@Zoidberg isn't it listed under Accident? of the OED is overrated
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What do you suggest would help (besides, not reviewing?)
 
user142019
@thecoshman not as a verb.
 
@sehe If those edits are rejected the editors won't keep coming back with them.
 
user142019
It's listed separately as an adverb.
 
9:15 AM
@Zoidberg strange...
 
user142019
@thecoshman not really, since it is no verb.
 
user142019
It's an adverb.
 
@Zoidberg oh, well that makes sense
 
user142019
You cannot accidentally something.
 
9:15 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes So the problem is neither with the edit, nor with the alleged credits the editor gets. It is with the organization of the review queue. I'd say, that's what needs changing. I'm not the type to go to meta over this. I prefer to vote with my feet fingers. It's as simple as that: if I prefer gamedev or expertSexchange, I go there. If I prefer SO, I stay here. If I hate meta, I stay way. Same thing for review queues. They don't waaste my time.
 
What is wrong is approving those poor edits.
It encourages more of them.
 
then what are you complaining about?
 
user142019
@CatPlusPlus lol
 
I don't what's the worst thing about this really
 
user142019
Hello @Necto.
 
9:16 AM
It's a badpostfest
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ok, but we can't influence that, now can we? I wouldn't accept it. Neither would you. Yet, enough people appear to like doing this
 
And badeditfest and badreviewfest
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Beyond your control.
 
Everyone is an idiot
 
user142019
9:16 AM
Cool, Lisps.
 
pretty soon we are going to need recursive reviews
 
@sehe Yes, we can. You said the edit should be approved. It should not.
 
Hello, @Zoidberg
 
Users lose their edit suggestion privileges if they get too many rejects too often.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, I'll tone it down. I'm not opposed to people approving it.
 
user142019
9:17 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes SO REJECT ALL THE EDITS :F
 
Holy shit
> (or DoS but do not abbreviate so due possible misinterpretation as DOS OS)
 
@sehe The review queues have an effect even if you don't go there and just stay on SO.
 
Argh
My brain
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Really?! Suddenly feeling a motivation burgeoning to visit the edit queue (with a pick-axe!)
 
user142019
If you spell MS-DOS with a lowercase O, you're a moron.
 
9:18 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm aware of that. It's not my (sole) responsability
 
@sehe Temporarily AFAIK. It's on a post on meta somewhere.
 
user142019
Unless you spell it "ms-dos" for stylistic reasons.
 
@Zoidberg No, you are a geek with a sense of hUmour
 
I'm just wondering what is it for
 
user142019
What's with all this rUmour.
 
user142019
9:19 AM
@Necto what is what for?
 
If you know what DOS is then you have no trouble distinguishing between DOS and DoS based on context
 
The chat
 
Because SERIOUSLY
 
user142019
@Necto for chatting.
 
Yep, you are right
 
9:20 AM
@CatPlusPlus this
 
user142019
For making fun of terrible languages and terrible posts on Stack Overflow and Reddit and HN.
 
@Zoidberg fuck, we've doing it wrong all this time
 
Ok, may be later I'll have a look at my free time
 
You know what will help this post? Making "Bold" BOLD
 
user142019
9:21 AM
This place is the only best place on all of Stack Exchange.
 
> Prefer pass-by-ref-to-const to pass-by-value for std::shared_ptrs.
Scott Meyers suxors :(
 
user142019
lol
 
so yeah, turns out the day before I get my pi set up for back up my server to, the drive gets replaced ¬_¬
 
9:22 AM
lol
 
urge to use server, waning rapidly
 
nice
 
> Thank you for reviewing 20 Suggested Edits today; come back in 14 hours to continue reviewing.
Fuck you this was the worst experience ever I want my money back
 
user142019
9:25 AM
@TonyTheLion lol
 
I'm so glad I have the most exciting job ever.
not
 
Xeo
@TonyTheLion Woah, way too crowded IMO.
 
@Xeo Looks more like a public Internet room or something.
Maybe in a school.
 
Xeo
hmm
GNAAAAAH
Fuck you VS for forcing me to restart.
 
9:45 AM
Hello :)
 
I'm disappointed at lack of responses to my very important poll
 
which poll?
 
@CatPlusPlus what?
 
The one in the topic
 
what poll?
 
9:47 AM
I already know your answer though
 
I'm disappointed at lack of responses to my very polite greeting.
 
Qt I've used
and it's ok
@ereOn Hi
 
@TonyTheLion: Hi !
 
How's things?
 
9:48 AM
@ereOn "Hello :)" is not a very polite greeting. A polite greeting would be, "Hi everyone I love you all, you are my best friends. kthxbai"
 
Qt is good. But I hate what it does to programmers.
It makes them be afraid of references.
 
@Abyx Okay that's actually worse than I thought
 
Everybody at my job that does Qt won't use references (and will use pointers instead)
 
And will allocate everything on the heap because "you can control when objects are destroyed that way"
(and end-up with MyClass::~MyClass() { delete m_my_member; } anyway...)
@Mysticial Fair point: Hi, people. I love you so much, I'd like to marry you all and make passionate love all day long.
 
9:50 AM
@ereOn :)
sounds a bit homoerotic though :)
 
I can't do any better
 
I'm obviously teasing you. It's impossible to make a good greeting in this room.
 
Surely. But its possible to make an awful greeting
 
"hi fuckwits" may work :P
 
$greeting = "hello you"; print $$"greeting";
I think mine is even worse.
 
10:00 AM
hi fuckwits
 
@ereOn Is that a bad thing with complex, non-copyable or expensive-to-copy GUI classes?
 
@MartinJames QT sucks. Pointers suck. Is that the answer you wanted?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Not exactly, no :)
 
@MartinJames Yes
 
10:15 AM
I don't really get what you guys have against object pointers - you all running scared of the big, bad NULL ptr?
 
Yes.
 
> Wall Street analysts were actually expecting AMD to lose more than this for Q4, so AMD essentially lost less money than was expected
@MartinJames we are scared of noobs running with pointers. It's like a child with matches or scizzors
 
@BartekBanachewicz Well the first step to not sucking is to suck less...
 
I sense huge oportunity in the kitchen equipment for them. Like my fridge.
 
@MartinJames: I have nothing against pointers just like I have nothing against not wearing pants. But when its freezing outside, I'd rather wear some.
 
10:18 AM
They should switch to ARM architecture, imo.
 
I just don't get the "I never use reference" way-of-thinking. When its the appropriate tool, why should we use something else ?
 
@ereOn Usually the argument is "so I know exactly what the code is doing", which is a stupid argument.
e.g. "I code in assembly so I know exactly what the code is doing"
 
haha, I don't even know my own code does most of the time.
 
There's reasoning about the code and thinking in terms of machine behaviour
One of those things is useful
 
10:23 AM
But my compiler does. Weird? I can freely call a member function with void* address by assembly and it runs properly without any error. :) — xersi 5 mins ago
 
@CatPlusPlus lol
 
Is there a word for "argument-from-the-fact-that-it-works-on-my-machine"?
 
You shouldn't. If you are writing non-GUI, single-threaded apps with no polymorphism and trivially-copyable classes, use references. I don't do such apps, so I don't use references very often. Yes, I do get NULL ptr AV/segfaults, and such bugs are usually obvious and so trivial to fix.
 
@Mysticial I'm going to print it on a giant wooden stick and use on assembly fanatics.
 
@MartinJames What
 
10:25 AM
@MartinJames Eh?
 
There are assembly fanatics? I thought they had died out as a race.
 
@Insilico Yep, I heard the same arguments here : "With references, it is not obvious that your function call may change the state/value of the passed reference !"
Because mutex_locker(my_mutex); is not obvious enough I guess.
 
@ereOn That's idiot reasoning
 
Oh - we agree on something!
 
There is no difference between non-const references and non-const pointers in this regard
 
10:26 AM
@CatPlusPlus: Couldn't agree more. But it seems my arguments against that don't hit them. I don't know how to convince them.
 
So basically POSIX defines an UB in C++? — H2CO3 28 mins ago
@MartinJames I wish they had.
 
Show them a function signature that takes a non-const pointer and ask if it mutates that
Hint: you can't tell
 
@ereOn Tell them you will save a lots of power and save trees, because the code could use . instead of -> (thus, will be smaller)
 
Same with references
 
@CatPlusPlus: Then usually the answer i get is : "Qt doesn't use references, it must be for a good reason"
 
10:28 AM
What you can prove is when it cannot mutate the object, and that's when the pointer/reference is const
 
Which kind-of prevents any further debate.
 
@ereOn Tell them that with references they can use "." instead of "->", which will save a pointer dereference and therefore make your code faster! :-P (N.B. this line of reasoning is complete bullshit)
 
It's like they took refuge in the Qt church.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, that's something weird as heck.
@ereOn Get better function names.
I think the argument that & makes it clear that it is an out parameter is a lazy cop-out.
 
@Insilico: Haha. Tried that one. Got that : "Then we have to think whether we should use . or -> at every call. If we use pointers everywhere, we don't have to think about that"
 
10:29 AM
@MartinJames But seriously what does copyability have to do with anything
 
If you need that to make it clear, your functions are likely to have poor names.
 
Or polymorphism
 
@ereOn actually it can be mutex_locker(const mutex&)
 
No, it can't
 
it can.
 
10:30 AM
@Abyx Nah. lock is inherently a mutating operation.
 
@Abyx You don't need to convince me ;) I'm merely relating what I have to face every day.
 
mutex can use mutable members
 
@Abyx Depends on what mutex is.
 
That's shitty design
 
std::mutex has no const functions.
 
10:30 AM
or use a pointer-to-real-mutex
 
@ereOn I don't get the whole "OMG we need to think OMG let's go shopping instead" mentality. Picking between . and -> cannot possibly take more brainpower than coming up with a non-shitty program design.
 
Yeah, makes sense
 
Eww - Abyx used the 'p' word.
 
Let's make mutex pretend it's not mutable BUT REALLY IT IS
Seriously
 
@Insilico: Yep, indeed. I usually answer that if they didn't wanted to think, they should have picked another job.
 
10:31 AM
Where did you learn type design
 
@CatPlusPlus there was a talk by Satter - "concurrency something"
 
@Abyx Herb Sutter?
 
What, "how to make concurrency even harder than it is by making types badly designed"?
 
I actually don't know where to stand on the "mutex should/should not be const" debate, however, if it is const, and is a member of a class Foo, how can one use it in a const method of Foo ?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I know! A global void* array of locked things
 
10:33 AM
@Insilico yeah
 
@Abyx In his last talk, Sutter explained why mutex::lock should not be const. (It's the same reasoning as the cat gave here)
 
Should it then be declared mutable in Foo ?
 
mutable is bad
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes but he used mutable for some reason
 
@Abyx mutable std::mutex
 
10:34 AM
@CatPlusPlus I've overheard a dialogue on our labs recently. "But how am I supposed to store another value? - make another global array! simple!"
With a size of 10000, of course.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Well, I think we can all agree on that madness.
 
I still want the explanation on how references prevent polymorphism or using non-trivially-copyable types
 
@MartinJames I still keep mocking the guy who said that
 
:allears:
(Hint: they don't)
Well, hard to explain. I'll check again. And check whether 4-byte pointer or 8-byte pointer is correct or not... — xersi 3 mins ago
He's really bad at this
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes, Y U NO LINK your "Almost static if" article on that SFINAE question?
 
10:37 AM
@CatPlusPlus The OP really is just not getting it.
 
@CatPlusPlus They do not. They just make it more awkward to store stuff in containers - the kind of thing that happens to GUI objects all the time.
 
@Xeo Working on it. I am writing an extensive answer... I don't like to just link-drop to my stuff.
 
@Xeo If someone else links to it, it doesn't look like self-promotion. I've linked that post a fair number of times.
 
@MartinJames How do they make it more awkward to store stuff in containers?
 
@CatPlusPlus did you read the "I am building up a function library, and I will use its database to call a function by assembly" That won the internet for me.
 
10:38 AM
@BartekBanachewicz No and I don't think I want to
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ah, good robot.
 
@CatPlusPlus: Proof that references are bad:

// Using references: code is unreadable
ABC& aaa = bbb();

// Using pointers: code is nice and clear (just like Qt's)
User* user = getCurrentUser();
See ?
 
@CatPlusPlus I mean that's the quote from that guy
 
Right
 
@ereOn How can I argue with such impeccable logic?
 
10:39 AM
@ereOn What? That's terrible.
 
@ereOn using Qt and "nice and clear" in one sentence should be punished
 
@Insilico: You can't, that's the beauty of pointers.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah he's really bad at this
 
@TonyTheLion it was irony
 
@BartekBanachewicz oh I'm not good friends with irony or sarcasm
 
10:39 AM
@TonyTheLion Hence, the sarcasm in "impeccable logic". :-P
 
@TonyTheLion Badlet
 
Because the object has to be copied into the container, (unless it's moveable, in newer compilers).
 
With the same logic, I can also prove that singletons is the best viable pattern, that const makes the code slower and that object-oriented programming is the only realistic paradigm that one should use in C++
 
10:41 AM
The object can be constructed directly in the container
Magic~
 
emplace_ass.
 
@CatPlusPlus It can be, yes...
 
@ereOn You can also prove that CPS is the only sane way to program.
 
Really, replacing back with ass in stdlib would make coding much funnier
 
If you ever do container<T*> you're making code worse than one copying 4GB of data every second
 
10:42 AM
Crown Prosecution Service?
 
though
 
@MartinJames Continuation Passing Style
 
@MartinJames Continuation Passing Style. It's the insane way to program. (Hint: no one but madmen and some compilers actually use it)
 
Chicken Passing Style
void foo(chicken&);
void bar(chicken&, int);
Every function has to take the chicken
 
@CatPlusPlus Well, copying 4GB of data may keep a lock held for some time...
 
10:44 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes how does it work? like O.a().b().c()?
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's method chaining. CPS is something different.
 
user142019
What's a good C or C++ library for encrypting data using a public RSA key?
 
I will look up Continuation Passing Style, though I've already decided I don't want it.
 
I tried to read the wiki examples but they're just fucking unreadable
 
10:46 AM
@Zoidberg cryptlib maybe
 
@jalf Awesome - 40 years with no Macs, Windows ME, PHP, Adobe updates, patch Tuesday.....................
 
@BartekBanachewicz You know how you can turn a bag inside out, as people do to pick up dog poo? Imagine that "inside-outing" process, but on a person. Do you see the guts all over? Good. Now turn the guts themselves inside out. Repeat until you cannot turn anything else inside out. That's CPS.
8
 
That is a great analogy robot
 
anal-ogy
lol
 
Oh thanks. Am I supposed to cook breakfast now?
 
10:49 AM
@MartinJames You're asking people living in very different timezones if you're supposed to cook breakfast at a certain point in time?
 
I think he's worried about the interaction of food with the CPS-as-guts imagery.
 
You ruined him
 
Somehow, sausage and bacon sizzling will remind me of CPS....
 
My rep is 44055
And I have a cold
 
Yeah, I quite like that analogy. That was a neat spontaneous moment of awesome, I think.
 
10:50 AM
@CatPlusPlus Get better soon!
 
@Zoidberg [Self-advertising alert] libcryptoplus (uses OpenSSL underneath.) Also comes with examples to do just that.
 
I think I feel sick.
 
I don't have a cold, but I have to get that CPS horror video out of my head.
 
@MartinJames That was in 1978 -- long before the Mac, Windows Me, PHP, Adobe Updates or Patch Tuesday had been invented yet (the hot "PC" of the time would have been an Apple II, Commodore PET, or TRS-80).
 
GPL3 library augh
 
10:51 AM
@MartinJames CPS horror video?
 
Don't make GPL3 libraries
 
Continuation passing style?
 
Don't make GPL libraries
 
5 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@BartekBanachewicz You know how you can turn a bag inside out, as people do to pick up dog poo? Imagine that "inside-outing" process, but on a person. Do you see the guts all over? Good. Now turn the guts themselves inside out. Repeat until you cannot turn anything else inside out. That's CPS.
 
Still no stars :<
 
10:52 AM
@Insilico Yeah, that's a good analogy.
 
@CatPlusPlus Actually, I chose GPLv3 a long time ago, never changed it, mainly because I don't really know where to stand on licences.
 
OKAY I'LL STAR IT GEEZ
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes +1 ;)
 
And oh POLL : I found IUP best. But since it's either C or Lua... well.
 
@ereOn Not on GPL
 
10:53 AM
What is your grief against GPLv3 If you mind me asking.
 
@ereOn DONT GPL EVER
 
GPL is terrible for libraries
 
Use Creative Commons.
 
I see three stars, and a PG rating.
 
Because it forces the library user to use GPL
 
10:53 AM
@CatPlusPlus Stallman thinks it's wonderful.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Only CC0 is suitable for software (excuse me if I told you this before).
 
Stallman is also insane
 
@CatPlusPlus What's your opinon of LGPL then, out of curiosity?
 
@Insilico Still too restrictive but meh
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you didn't. My code is under CC3-BY-NC-SA. What's wrong with it?
 
10:54 AM
The only think I seek is : I'd like to "prevent" companies that only write closed-source softwares to use my libraries without even asking (I wouldn't ask for money, I just love the idea of "asking")
 
What is a good license for that ?
 
@ereOn BSD. MIT. CC.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Not really
 
@BartekBanachewicz Dunno, IANAL. I am going by the word of the CC lawyers themselves on this.
 
10:55 AM
It's a silly idea anyway
 
@CatPlusPlus everything is better than GPL
 
@ereOn Why do you require the "asking" part?
 
@ereOn Asking, or informing? Do you literally want them to email you and ask "is it ok to use this"? Or is it enough that they put on their website or in their product that they use your library?
 
Creative Commons does not recommend using their licenses for software, except for CC0.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes that's pretty weird
 
10:56 AM
Because the former is probably going to make it a non-starter for most
 
Public domain everything
 
@Insilico: I don't require it, but its a way to ease the life of those who contribute to open-source and not the one of those that just use things without contributing at all.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I think someone postulated a plausible justification on chat before. Sec.
 
Maybe it's a bit idealistic, I don't know.
 
@ereOn Hint: almost nobody contributes
 
10:56 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes CC0 Public Domain Dedication is GPL-compatible
 
@ereOn What if said company uses your library then later makes a shitty-ass product with said library? :-P
 
Dec 2 '12 at 2:19, by Luc Danton
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's not clear whether the license would apply to source and/or binaries I think.
 
@ereOn I've never contributed to Boost. And yet I use it. Is that wrong? :)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes fucking fuck. Now I have to find new licence
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, CC0 is fine. None of the others is.
Dec 2 '12 at 2:20, by R. Martinho Fernandes
It's not an issue with CC0, because it gives up rights on everything.
 
10:57 AM
@jalf Yep, the informing part would be enough to me. At least I know my code may be of use to somebody, its always comforting.
 
I've never contributed to any project with a contribution process because fuck the effort
 
Some countries do not have the public domain concept at all.
 
@wilx That's why CC0 exists. It fallbacks to whatever is possible when there is no PD.
 
> C++ is a statically typed language, but its type system is very weak. You can freely cast any pointer to any other pointer using reinterpret_cast.
I think implicit casts result in a "weak" type system rather than explicit casts.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes So CC0 effectively provides PD where PD laws don't exist?
 
10:58 AM
damn damn damn.
 
@Insilico CC0 was created with the main purpose of solving that problem, yes.
 
@StackedCrooked I'm pretty sure there's a cast that not even reinterpret_cast<>() will do.
 
@StackedCrooked Yup
 
@jalf I would say no. I just like to avoid companies that copy a source code, remove all licence information into it and use them without even giving proper credit to the author.
 
@Insilico Yeah, like const cast, or simply casting from int to double.
 
10:59 AM
(Well, no license can protect effectively against that anyway...)
 
@ereOn Yeah your GPL license will SURELY STOP THOSE
MAKES SENSE
 
@Insilico reinterpret_cast<int*>(const_cast<int const*>(p))
 
@CatPlusPlus: I absolutely agree. See my second sentence about that :p
 

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