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user142019
19:00
Magic mushrooms banned? I don’t believe you.
user142019
They don’t ban anything in The Netherlands.
@Zoidberg'-- Clearly, since you aren't banned :P
user142019
They should ban people who commit crimes.
Ell
Ell
@Zoidberg'-- have you/do you use drugs recreationally? If it is not too rude to ask
user142019
@Ell oxygen.
Ell
Ell
19:01
@Zoidberg'-- really? o.O
user142019
@Ell you do too I hope.
Ell
Ell
but oxygen doesn't do anything.
user142019
inb4 joke
@Ell Oxygen is cleary a drug... have you ever seen the kind of withdrawal symptoms people who try to quit go through?
Ell
Ell
@Borgleader haha, but nobody uses it recreationally :P
user142019
19:03
@Ell 00 GET
user142019
Also, people who meditate use oxygen recreationally.
Ell
Ell
man I've been watching these youtube videos and they make me want to try drugs really bad
user142019
hahahahahhaa don’t.
user1804599
Drugs are bad and you should feel bad.
user142019
Man.
Ell
Ell
19:05
it's also made me want to attempt to make methamphetamines at home :L
user142019
I want to make a web app but I’m out of ideas.
Ell
Ell
and moonshine :P
user142019
user142019
Still want to make it?
Ell
Ell
@Zoidberg'-- how about a jquery animation maker thing?
@Zoidberg'-- to sell, silly.
19:07
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh, I want to chose a topic! But I don't have the necessary rights :(
@Ell So jail sounds like a good retirement home to you?
user142019
I won’t feel sorry for you.
Ell
Ell
@Borgleader I'm not actually going to do it obviously, I just think it's very interesting that particular substances are banned
I just find it very interesting
and moonshine too :P
You know what else is interesting?
C++ Templates.
user1804599
19:09
Haskell.
And it's legal!
user142019
@Borgleader you think.
Ell
Ell
also weed, lots of people do weed, and even though it's a class B drug, the police don't seem to care o.O
You can get prescriptions for weed, can't you?
Ell
Ell
@FredOverflow perscriptions?
19:12
Weed for medicinal use (yknow for terminal phase cancer patients and such)
Today, I had my students implement prime factorization. Only about 30% made it. Maybe it was a bit much for their first week on loops? :)
user142019
You’re a teacher?
o_O
I didn't know he's a teacher.
user142019
I want @FredOverflow as my teacher.
user142019
But @FredOverflow doesn’t want @Zoidberg'-- as a student. :P
19:15
Unix has it's place and Windows has it's place. I just think Unix/Linux makes for a better server platform.
This must be the fifth time this has come up :) How about "Yes, FredOverflow is a teacher" as a topic? :)
user142019
Hey pinging yourself isn’t possible anymore.
@Chimera
@Zoidberg'-- You'd probably be bored to death, it's a freshmen course.
You should play this song for your students in class if you ever get the chance, @FredOverflow:
19:16
@FredOverflow is it online?
user142019
@FredOverflow Well I don’t know shit about prime factorization. :P
user142019
And the course I’m following now is too. xD
@mizi_sk In a sense yes, but you need to be a student at our University to get access, and you have to understand German :)
So on steam I purchased a game and lost the download. How can I get the game and license back? Is there a link in my steam account that provides it?
@FredOverflow no German, ou
@Chimera should be in your apps list
19:17
@Zoidberg'-- Wait a minute, aren't you designing your own programming language? You don't really want to learn about "what is a variable, what is an assignment, what is a for loop" again, do you?
user142019
@mizi_sk inb4 leak. /cc @FredOverflow :P
user142019
@FredOverflow well we got those at school last month.
Xeo
Xeo
@Chimera Your library should have it
@mizi_sk Yeah I see the apps but I don't see any links to re-download them or get the licenses
user142019
We got a homework assignment for making a web page. I made a web server with it in Haskell in order to keep it somewhat of a challenge. :P
19:18
@Xeo Is that available after installing Steam on my PC?
@Zoidberg'-- Does your teacher understand Haskell? :)
Xeo
Xeo
It's inside of Steam, yeah
Ell
Ell
hmm.
user142019
@FredOverflow no. :)
@Xeo Ah thanks!
19:18
@Zoidberg'-- I can't imagine that going over well.
Ell
Ell
These guys are venturing into cherynobl and for some reason they say drinking lots of alcohol helps o.O
So if I really like Counter-Strike, what other games would you recommend?
That reminds me: is the water under Hiroshima still boiling?
hm, my crt mem leak tool doesn't show the origin of the leaked object...
just raw data
SW:KotoR2 for 2.5$ on steam o.o these guys are nuts...
19:19
@Chimera definitely not Call of duty
@Ell That's a common mis-belief. Alcohol may help against the fear, but that's it :)
@FredOverflow we had haskell in first semester at our university
Ell
Ell
@FredOverflow ahh right - actually that makes sense, the guy said that radiophobia was common - a nocebo effect
@mizi_sk You lucky bastard!
@FredOverflow don't know about that :D everybody was totally confused
@FredOverflow at least who had some experience with procedural programming
@FredOverflow it was "easy" for non-programmers
19:22
I think that's great!
@Zoidberg'-- before programming in Java / after programming in Java for 2.5 years
user142019
@Cheersandhth.-Alf haha
user142019
Our first programming language was JavaScript and this week we’ll start with Java.
user142019
@Zoidberg'-- You poor thing!
user142019
19:23
XD
user142019
I learn Java in under two hours.
user142019
The rest will be the standard library.
@Zoidberg'-- You are a genius then. Join the NASA
@Zoidberg'-- You'll need at most a week for that ;)
user142019
@AlbertoBonsanto I already know many things about Java.
19:24
@Zoidberg'-- Just don't compare strings with == and you should be fine ;)
user142019
For example the fucking inconsistent == and how terrible fake generics work.
I tried to use Java generics once
Then I gave up
@Zoidberg'-- I hardly can manage learning C... Books aren't so good (well the one i have access to) or maybe i am just dumb how these pro say :)
I was like "This is shit."
C was easy for me to learn.
@Zoidberg'-- Better try C#
user142019
19:25
And how interfaces are a damn work-around around the fact that the language lacks multiple inheritance for no reason.
Plus, when I elarned C, I didn't have Malloc.
user142019
@AlbertoBonsanto tell that my school.
So I did everyone on the stack.
@ThePhD What's so hard about T extends Comparable<? super T>? ;)
Everything was either global, a temporary on the stack passed out, or a temporary stack variable memcpy'd into a nother one
19:26
@Zoidberg'-- What do you mean?
@FredOverflow AAGH OH MY GOD AAGH SHIT AGGGGHHHH runs away.
user142019
@AlbertoBonsanto they teach me Java.
user142019
Also, Java “lambdas” are fucking verbose.
@AlbertoBonsanto Don't learn C from K&R, it's massively overrated.
They forced me to use Java when I wanted to learn Ray Tracing and Computer Graphics
With that Sketch thing
19:26
@Zoidberg'-- Java 8 has quite nice lambda syntax.
@Zoidberg'-- I disagree with that first they should learn a simple language like C, or Pascal
Sketchpad? Sketch? Something Sketch? I dnno, it had sketch in it.
@FredOverflow I am studying from Deitel and Deitel but it's a bit messy....
It has its own following.
user142019
foo(new Bar() {
    @Override
    public void muh() { /* crap here */ }
});
// STUPID LANGUAGE Y U NO SYNTACTIC SUGAR
19:27
@ThePhD I wish I could do ray tracing at school. I tried on my own. Massive failure on my part.
@Zoidberg'-- Try Lisp their syntax is easy to understand hehehehe
user142019
They should teach Haskell first.
@AlbertoBonsanto How is C simple? You cannot even read a string from the console without talking about security problems.
user142019
@FredOverflow the language itself is simple, like assembly. Using it is a different story.
Maybe C# would be a good place to start?
19:28
@AlbertoBonsanto I don't think there is an outstanding C tutorial book. Maybe I should write one? ;)
user142019
Maybe not?
@FredOverflow Now you see why i say why that book suck, in that oen they don't teach anything about security :)
Ell
Ell
Ruby I think can be very simple, and also very powerful, esp. blocks (lambdas/procs/etc.)
You don't have to worry about memory, tehere's no issues with security, reading stuff in and out is dumb-simple.
@Zoidberg'-- Again, Java 8 will have real lambdas with nice syntax.
19:28
There's even a fat libary for you to use.
user142019
@FredOverflow I know, you told me already. :P
@FredOverflow But do it for dumbs :)
Starting with C++ isn't bad either.
39
Q: What is the most orthogonal programming language?

FredOverflowI find myself repeatedly annoyed by having to teach freshmen about special language rules (like array-to-pointer decay) that have absolutely nothing to do with programming in itself. So I wondered: What is the programming language with the smallest number of special language rules, where everyth...

@FredOverflow The rectangle. -------
19:29
@ThePhD Right, as long as you leave out the funny parts and crank all warning levels to 11.
user142019
Starting with C would be great. The übernoobs will quit immediately, and the other people will learn how memory and pointers work.
Which is completely irrelevant for learning how to program. I would never recommend starting with C.
@FredOverflow And the worst part is the lack of knowledge about pointers that book has.
If I had a choice, I would say C#.
user142019
You cannot program if you don’t know how computers work.
19:31
Python, I don't want to be crucified because of my tabs. =l
My first language was assembler cause i am electrical engineer :)
user142019
Python. <3
If it were my decision, I would probably pick Haskell, Scala or C# :)
user142019
Assembler is not a language. It’s a program that turns assembly code into machine code.
Well, I have a holy hell of a lot less language exposure than anyone here.
user142019
19:31
@FredOverflow You are the best.
@Zoidberg'-- thanks for the correction
I've never used Prolog, Haskell, Scala, Smalltalk, Brainf*ck, or anything like that.
user142019
Starting with PHP is the worst thing you can do.
I've only used Java, C#, C++, C++/CLI, PHP, and a few times HTML.
Unfortunately, it isn't my choice. I have to teach C++. Which is totally fine with me, but not very exciting if you leave out the stuff that is too hard for beginners. Like, we won't talk about references until week 8 or something.
19:32
@FredOverflow Wat. =l
I would flip a table in a class like that.
Sometimes I still with computer courses were like those 401 Courses from MIT and such.
user142019
@FredOverflow let me guess, you will talk about pointers in week four? :)
They murdered you, right from the get go, and only the toughest survived.
Well, as long as the course covers interesting stuff that doesn't need references, where's the problem? You don't want to introduce functions and talk about 4 different kinds of parameter passing variations in the same week, trust me.
I need to learn pointers deeply :(
Many have a hard time understanding fundamentals like the difference between parameters and arguments.
19:34
Deep pointer learning.
T*, to the max.
user142019
Also teach that arrays are not pointers.
@Zoidberg'-- Pointers were in week 12 last year, but I'll probably leave them out completely this year. Remember, it's an introductory course in programming that happens to use C++. Pointers are not so fundamental to programming that a beginner needs to learn them in the first semester.
I think it'd be easier to teach C++ in two segments: stack-based, and heap-based.
@Zoidberg'-- I won't teach arrays at all. I will teach std::vector and std::array, of course.
user142019
@FredOverflow oh introduction to programming.
user142019
19:35
@FredOverflow +1
@FredOverflow Is a teacher? of what University? Wow those guys are so smart, very impressive!
Heap-based includes pointers allocation new delete square-brackets stuff.
@ThePhD I also won't talk about new and delete. And no smart pointers :)
Ell
Ell
@Zoidberg'-- you can programme java with only knowing how the JVM works
Stack-based is just variables and other basic stuff, functions, etc.
19:37
@Ell Does it work? the JVm (sarcasm)
~Link()
That's some badass hair.
I kind've want to touch it.
user142019
@FredOverflow stop having the same hair style, beard and nose as me. :P
Impressive @FredOverflow
@ThePhD Thank you. It's a bit longer by now, the photo is already 3 years old :)
19:38
Now I want to bring a comb and comb it.
But that'd probably be excessively awkward.
What does Dipl.-Inf. mean?
@FredOverflow Stack-based cleaning!
@R.MartinhoFernandes diploma information technology or something? :)
19:40
nubberies
@FredOverflow So, what C book do you recommend for dumb latins? as me :)
user142019
@AlbertoBonsanto Learn You a Haskell for Great Good, obviously.
@Zoidberg'-- C not Haskell! ;)
user142019
Shit, he noticed.
@AlbertoBonsanto I only have three books on C. "Programming in C" is decent, but there must be something better out there. I heard good things about "Learn C the hard way".
19:42
@TonyTheLion They should provide an API.
Then the news sites can automatically put TL;DR on their articles.
@FredOverflow Thanks!
I also heard good things about "Head First C", but when I took a short peek, it was basically saying that arrays are pointers, and that was it for me :)
Am I able to see who downvotes a question?
Anybody play any of the Hitman games?
Arrays are not-yet, but almost, pointers.
user142019
19:47
Arrays are completely different from pointers.
@ChristopherIckes No.
user142019
Pointers are objects representing memory addresses, arrays are lists of objects.
pointers are a nice way to iterate over arrays, so usually the decay happens automagically and nobody is the wiser.
@ChristopherIckes No. Unless you're having a wet dream.
19:48
@Zoidberg'-- At the university where I studied, the software engineering course starts with Haskell.
@ThePhD Right. Now imagine std::vector<T> automatically decaying to std::vector<T>::iterator. People would run around putting houses on fire :)
@ThePhD The problem is that pointers are not just that.
Pointers are many things, and that is what makes them so nasty.
@Zoidberg'-- Not all pointers are objects. For example, &some_variable is a pointer, but not an object.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, it may be bad, but it feels so good.
user142019
template<class... Ts>
class failtor : public std::vector<Ts...> {
public:
    operator std::vector<Ts...>::iterator() { return std::begin(*this); }
}
user142019
19:50
@FredOverflow what would be a better term? “Values”?
Has anybody played any of the "Hitman" games? If so, are they fun/good?
@Chimera Sexy nunstrippergunner ladies.
where is konrad when I need him
user142019
UK
19:51
Oh, noes, there is a Steam sale on.
10
A: Do the young minds need to learn the pointer concepts?

FredOverflow Why did the C master Dennis Ritchie introduce pointers in C? Because pointers are a very powerful mechanism that can be used in many ways. And why did the other programming languages like VB.NET or Java or C# eliminate them? Because pointers are a very dangerous mechanism that can be m...

@ThePhD Yeah I saw that in the trailer.... Are the others in the series any good?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Wallets getting raped!
Unfortunately, they're not sale-ing anything I want to buy.
Then again, I don't particularly buy anything in the first place. :3c
@Zoidberg'-- I usually refer to pointers as "typed addresses" :)
Xeo
Xeo
19:52
@FredOverflow And what do you call void*?
@FredOverflow void* ?
@Xeo An untyped pointer :)
user142019
@ThePhD how is void* not a type?
Xeo
Xeo
aw.
Cheater. :c
@Zoidberg'-- Apparently void* is not a type, and GCC will lambast with errors when I try to delete[] it, because it's not a complete type WAAHHHHH GCC WAAHHHHH.
... Sorry, just annoyed at the number of warnings GCC usually gives me. ._.
19:53
#define BLACK_HOLE void *
@ThePhD How you conclude the former from the latter leaves me wondering.
user142019
@FredOverflow #define :(
Given struct foo;, is foo not a type?
user142019
@LucDanton not in C. :)
@LucDanton I don't think it's a complete type, just a type declaration.
user142019
19:55
It’s not a definition.
But my C++ Language Lawyer std-foo is rusty.
user142019
It’s a declaration.
Yes, sorry, that's what I meant. Fixed.
When your compiler tells you a complete type is involved I think it is not reasonable to conclude that void* is a not a type.
@ThePhD You should be annoyed at your code, not the warnings.
19:56
Hey, gotta delete them void* sometimes.
I will not bother replying to that.
Well, no.
I've since eliminated the need to delete void*, because I found a better way that's probably equally as bad, but I digress.
user142019
Isn’t void* a complete type?
user142019
]
19:58
delete means 'destroy and deallocate memory'. You cannot destroy via void* -- there is no type information to know what should be destroyed.
@Zoidberg'-- It is.
I honestly cannot fathom a reason to want to delete void*.
A variable-data Image class which can hold multiple kinds of data, which can usually be stored as a void* or even a char* (or better yet, a byte*)
C++ has virtual member functions by now ;)
I am not listening.
user142019
using byte = unsigned char; lol
19:59
Oh, well okay.

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