« first day (3749 days earlier)      last day (1181 days later) » 

5:00 AM
Look what I have found on the internet today!
 
 
8 hours later…
 
2 hours later…
2:16 PM
@TelKitty Giant meteor fly pass earth: "they're just taunting me now"
 
 
4 hours later…
6:41 PM
I tried to improve std::swap_ranges by swapping elements bunch by bunch with a cacheline-sized buffer instead of one by one
It makes my algorithms faster for long double, but slower for int
Which is rather surprising: I'd expect it to benefit from moving more elements at once, but apparently it doesn't
 
@Mikhail I'd have said rather the opposite. Pragmatically useful, but seems to be implemented as a special case. Call me old fashioned if you will, but I still have this crazy idea that a regular, orthogonal instruction set is kind of a cool idea.
 
What?
 
ARM
 
Can't hug a child with ARM chips!
 
@JerryCoffin x86 could probably be a lot faster if Intel focused on just making the code people actually run faster
 
6:48 PM
This pack/unpack is important for host side performance. Now you can quickly pack/unpack the data before sending it to an ML accelerator card or GPU. Its going to be a popular instruction.
 
@Mgetz I suspect they do that a bit more than more people realize.
 
@JerryCoffin doesn't seem like it when they are spending that much die area on a feature almost nobody uses
 
This feature is going to be very much in demand
 
@Mgetz Which feature do you mean? AVX 512? If so, I think it's pretty much a chicken/egg situation, where nobody can use it primarily because availability is too limited. At one time, the same was true of 32-bit protected mode, 64-bit flat mode, every media extension ever, etc.
 
@JerryCoffin eh... less so for the others. People ignored the 286 protected mode largely (it was dumb). 64bit mode was pretty quickly adopted by intel and it was in every AMD chip. MS de-facto saying that OEMs had to ship 64bit win 7 also helped.
but even intel hasn't really shipped AVX512 on commodity hardware
they did AVX and AVX2
 
6:57 PM
Part of the issue is branding. So AVX256 -> AVX512 resulted in only marginal improvements for code that already ran AVX256. BUT Intel started interesting instructions (like for neural networks, such as the one I linked) into the AVX512 namespace. So its kinda not clear what we're talking about.
But host 32 bit -> device 16 bit (inference) is a very common pattern
 
@Mikhail but if the instructions aren't present on commodity hardware nobody cares
 
@Mgetz its comming,
 
they can be amazing instructions. But nobody is going to go waaaay out of their way to buy an HEDT part that's already way out of date to support them.
 
Good chance, we're buying a bunch :-/
 
7:01 PM
But its going into sapphire rapids
 
you notice what's missing there?
 
@Mgetz A few people care. Google, Micrrosoft, Amazon, etc., will use it in. And even though servers don' t have the volume of clients, they have a lot higher profit margin.
 
@Mikhail allegedy, but AMD hasn't said they'll support it
 
@Mgetz love
 
@StackedCrooked also technically true
 
7:02 PM
:D
 
@JerryCoffin many of whom already have extensive investment in FPGAs, ASICs, or custom silicon
 
I think thats what cute about this instruction, its the instruction you use to pump data into the custom silicon. Intel is adding some host side optimizations for neural networks, etc.
 
Can someone provide me some clarification?

White-box testing is testing your code that you are familiar with?

Black-box testing is testing someone elses code you are unfamiliar with, or having someone unfamiliar with your source code test it?
 
@Mikhail or I could just run a quick kernel to convert them all docs.nvidia.com/cuda/cuda-math-api/…
@bigchungus ask on programmers
 
7:08 PM
@Mgetz thank you didn't know that was a chat room
 
@bigchungus it's better... it's a QA site
with it's own chat
 
16d inactive o.0
 
@Mgetz Sure, but you might want to do it on the host
the stuff I work on is so fast its usually bottlenecked by PCIe so its better to send less data, in the end
 
@Mikhail I could... but why? If the data is already in float format... then just transfer it the once, and convert into the input for whatever I need. Fewer transfers that way
 
basically doubles the PCIe bandwidth
 
7:10 PM
@Mikhail I'd ask... but I probably don't want to know
 
9 mins ago, by StackedCrooked
@Mgetz love
 
destroying your PCI-e lanes by moving things when don't need to isn't love
 
@Mgetz Yes, they do. But both Intel and those customers would rather get that built into the CPU than use FPGAs or ASICs for it.
 
@JerryCoffin well intel definitely... their customers are just making their own CPUs because ARM includes instructions for it
 
Can anyone help me understand why my "optimized" swap_ranges is slower than the naive one for int, but faster for long double?
 
7:18 PM
@Morwenn call memmove
 
@Mgetz Their customers are making their own CPUs because they can't get something off the shelf that does what they want. But most of them would rather not be in the CPU business if they can help it.
 
@Mgetz just enough elements to that it uses memmove instead of SIMD instructions?
 
@JerryCoffin probably not, but intel isn't exactly listening to their asks either
@Morwenn it looks like it's realizing what you're doing and doing just enough of a prolog and epilog and then doing memmove in the middle
memmove is usually faster than SIMD btw... because it's usually a rep stosb
 
and yet it's faster for long double, where it only has to move 4 elements at a time :/
 
@Mgetz Oh, I think they are listening. But they're stuck with the fact that developing new CPUs always takes time, and Intel is currently having other problems as well, so they simply can't do everything they'd like to right now.
 
7:21 PM
I hate it when your compiler can't just generate the best code for all scenarios
 
@Morwenn try adding -ftree-vectorize
@Morwenn if it could it'd be called ICC
the only issue is it wouldn't support c++20 then
 
haha
@Mgetz doesn't change anything, I think it's already implied by -O3?
 
@Morwenn it significantly changed generated code when I did it?
 
eh, it didn't change at all for me
can you share? maybe it's a godbolt bug
 
dunno didn't do it twice... so yeah might have been
honestly I'd expect the naive to win almost all the time
because of decoder cache
 
7:26 PM
and yet somehow I've got a consistent improvement with long double in the sorting algorithms that use the "optimized" version
Here the difference between new optimized and new optimized2 is the swap_ranges function
 
fld TBYTE PTR [rax]
add rax, 16
add rdx, 16
fld TBYTE PTR [rdx-16]
fstp TBYTE PTR [rax-16]
fstp TBYTE PTR [rdx-16]
blame 80bit double
which nobody uses
 
ooooh, so I got anormal results because of long double? :/
 
@Morwenn well AVX doesn't support it
hell I'm not sure x87 really supports it anymore
 
Dammit, I used it for benchmarks because it was less prone to random optimization than small integers, so I thought it represented "average" types better
 
@Morwenn long double isn't even portable because not all compilers support it anymore
 
7:30 PM
My code only compiles with GCC and Clang lol
 
What can I use for benchmarks which doesn't give inconsistent results because of int/double optimizations then?
 
that seems to compile on MSVC...
 
Oh, I meant my libraries
It's a sea of ICE
I should try with the very latest one, but so far every new MSVC version choked on my code
 
@Morwenn could be worse... could be a sea of WTF
 
7:34 PM
nice
even random to_chars implementation details
 
@Mgetz x87 supports it, but (almost) nobody really supports x87. Even when they do, they often don't support 80-bit long doubles anyway--Microsoft last supported 80-bit long doubles in their 16-bit compilers...
 
Benchmarking is hard ffs
 
@JerryCoffin does x87 still have dedicated hardware?
 
I need a good type for benchmarks which isn't affected by random math optimizations but still not as stupid as long double I guess
 
@Morwenn but yeah naive should win for any portable type so double
 
7:36 PM
@Mgetz Yes, I'm pretty sure it does, carefully hidden somewhere deep in the bowels of the processor. Just hasn't been updated to any significant degree in a couple of decades.
 
ok, I'll go with double then...
 
@JerryCoffin so whatever shipped with the Pentium M then?
I was going to say Pentium 3... but I'm pretty sure they did actually improve it between the two gens
and x87 was an absolute pile of dog crap on P4
 
@Mgetz The last time I'm sure they did a significant update to x87 was around the Pentium II timeframe. They probably have since then, but I'm not sure exactly when.
@Mgetz I'm not sure how much of that was x87 being a pile of crap, and how much was just being attached to such a pile of crap that it couldn't perform, regardless.
 
@JerryCoffin I know they improved it for P3, P4 they focused all the hardware on SSE/SSE2
 
It's time for me to leave you all and cook for the family
 
7:41 PM
@Morwenn Enjoy!
 
Well, it'll be simple but long T_T
 
@JerryCoffin looks like a little of both, they worsened the cycle counts on quite a few critical instructions, but worse the load and store times were 10x the P3
 
@Mgetz Hmmm...that surprises me a bit, I guess. Agner Fog uses one table for both Pentium II and III, and I don't recall seeing anything like "X for PII, Y for PIII".
 
@JerryCoffin Then I'd trust agner, any improvements may have just been clock speed
and cache
 
@Mgetz Thinking about things, whenever uop fusion was introduced (Pentium M, IIRC), that undoubtedly did change things for at least some x87 instructions, so it clearly has been revised substantially more recently than Pentium II anyway.
 
user7659542
7:51 PM
@Morwenn long time I haven't seen you around here. I almost started thinking Covide got our favorite frenchy
 
user7659542
@Morwenn How old are you if you don t mind me asking?
 
@JerryCoffin I didn't think uop fusion ever touched x87?
 
@Mgetz I kind of thought it affected a few things like fp load and store, but I'd have to go back and look to be sure (and given how long it's been since any of this really mattered, I doubt that'll happen).
 
@JerryCoffin I didn't think that it did because x87 is all stack based. So it really can't optimize that.
 
@Mgetz I'll take your word for it--I'm not sure either way, and don't care enough to bother looking it up.
 
8:01 PM
That's pretty much where I am too
 
8:27 PM
I just listen to a podcast about 2038 being the next y2k and thought it was interesting that that type of thing is still a problem.
 
9:08 PM
No, 2038 is not a Y2K. What on the other hand is a problem!...
I started a very modest onlyfans, talking about the complexities around RAII and how we want to simplify stuff. I offered lectures in my (previously mentioned) garters for my "premium fans". I got instabanned.

I'm reading the ban reason now...
Oh my the onlyfans moderators are quite discriminatory if you'd ask my opinion.
 
@CupOfJava There's probably some old software that will suddenly show wildly inaccurate dates, but it's not nearly as widespread, nor nearly as difficult to fix. Assuming the software was written at all well to start with, simpy re-compiling will normally fix the problem.
 
@JerryCoffin Also Torvalds would have in his peculiar way pointed to this problem as being an actual issue.
How am I supposed to feel about the "ask stackoverflow, c++; they are the nicest people" video?
 
@JerryCoffin pretty sure it's a significant issue
the amount of code around nowadays is exponentially more than y2k
and there's still a bunch of code, especially embedded stuff that's still relies on 32-bit timestamps. Like, the world's not gonna end. So no reason to stir up the Y2K panic again.
 
9:25 PM
@CaptainGiraffe About the way you would when a random person made a statement with no support, but almost certainly at least some reason.
 
I mean the video is right. It's a miserable place for actual newbies
 
@JerryCoffin It is a divide, I'm happy it's not my divide.
@PeterT Why so I've answered hundreds of newbie questions.
 
and you haven't seen the hordes of people aggressively commenting about unrelated "you shouldn't do stuff this way" and "why are you even doing this" underneath. Seemingly being upset about people asking questions in a way that they can't immediately answer them.
 
@PeterT 2038 is a problem if it uses signed 32-bit timestamps. With unsigned 32-bit timestamps, the problem arises much later. For what it's worth, there are also likely to be some problems in 2036, when NTP time stamps will roll over.
But all of this misses a lot of the real point. A simple grep for a few things like time_t, mktime, and localtime turns up the vast majority of code that's at all likely to encounter a problem in 2038. The big problem with Y2K was that most of the problem arose from storing dates in strings, so people ended up looking through all sorts of unrelated code because a lot of it was hidden is more or less random string manipulation stuff.
So pretty much any place somebody had something like char foo[max_len]; it needed to be looked at to see whether max_len was based on reserving 2 digits fro the year.
 
I think "just search the source" is assuming that a) "there's source code available" and b) "someone still knows how to compile it"
 
9:38 PM
@PeterT In the corner of my eye, yes. Hordes, very much no. From my perspective that would be an exremely unfair representation.
 
@CaptainGiraffe from my observations there's a very clear difference between the C++ tags and some other languages.
 
apologize for the spelling, t and r are right next to each other, I was hoping I could hit them both in the correct order with one finger. I was wrong.
@PeterT Ok, fine, I've seen Sam close 2 questions a tad prematurely.
@JerryCoffin That is cool and chilling =) Fortunately now we can work more principled =)
 
@PeterT Honestly, I think a much bigger concern is simply how (or even if, in a lot of cases) the software/firmware involved can be updated, even if the vendor has a fix in hand. Quite a few smaller embedded systems don't have anything like a USB port to allow updates, and a lot of older systems may have the problems embedded into masked ROM that can only be modified by installing new hardware.
 
@PeterT Whatever the criticism, I'm happy to feel at home with this crowd.
 
@JerryCoffin I didn't look too much into it but from skimming, I think it mainly affects Unix. Which to be honest I think you're right, I don't think it will be relevant in 2038.
 
9:54 PM
I just talked to my computer savvy nephew. He agreed that we should modernize unix by s/send/yeet/g

So sendmail becomes well...
 
I think you mean yeetmail
 
Aye aye, captain
 
@CupOfJava It affects quite a bit of use of C and C++ on various other systems as well.
 
10:10 PM
It's not just C or C++, so many more languages. Because many of them also base their date-time stuff on libc
or POSIX stuff, since that has the promise of being "portable"
 
@PeterT Also true--but the main point was that it's a lot more widespread than just UNIX.
 
also, replacing the programs is one thing. Migrating tons of databases or file formats is another
 
I love hearing non-programmers talk about y2k like it was a hoax.
No, it was just fixed before it became a problem
 
@traducerad It's just that I don't always have much to contribute, I'm often lurking ^^"
@traducerad I'm turning 30 later this year
 
@PeterT An awful lot of them migrated to 64 bit timestamps quite some time ago. MSVC switched from 32 to 64-bit time_t in 2005. gcc sort of switched around the same time, but had a macro when you built the library to include a hack to a support both 32-bit and 64-bit timestamps for a while, but even that's been gone for years now (~2013).
 
10:25 PM
 
@CupOfJava It was an unshielded twisted pair, not a coax.
 
10:49 PM
I just got reinstated on onlyfans with a flag [bestiality] as long as I include garters I can provide content. My wife will be quite perturbed
I guess, it is not the platform for me. Tall guys are always discriminated against.
 
11:02 PM
:51418238 My kids and coworkers seem to find them more painful than funny. They make me smile though...
 
11:41 PM
I'm a master of career limiting moves.
But the first hour of onlyfans gave me $34000. This is not right.
My wife says we are disconnecting
OMG I LOVE MY WIFE!
 

« first day (3749 days earlier)      last day (1181 days later) »