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03:47
Nov 9 '16 at 3:31, by Mikhail
Fuck, I go to Chipotle for an hour and Trump is our new president.
Looks like Biden might become your new president. Not sure whether he is suitable, at least he deserves some recognition for trying to get elected for some 30 odd years.
 
6 hours later…
10:21
800 members ... must admit this year has not been good on getting new members or retain active members.
Buuuut ... I have been able to steal share more elite people from other groups because those groups have been even less active.
 
6 hours later…
jrh
jrh
16:08
7
Q: Qlistview Selectionchanged event not found in Qt?

user662285Qlistview Selectionchanged event not found in Qt What is the equivalent of selection changed event in Qlistview in Qt?

A bit of a mess here, the OP initially posted the question saying they wanted help with a QListView, but it looks like later on they realized they actually meant QListWidget, one answer is about QListWidget and the other is about QListView
The OP edited the question to be about QListWidget but it got rolled back; really there should be 2 questions, one about QListWidget, one about QListView; I wasn't able to find any good C++ dupe targets (but there are Python dupe targets)
I don't want to sadden you but I fear almost everyone in this room stopped caring about policing the website years ago :')
jrh
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Hypothetically I'd say the solution would be to post a QListView question, migrate the QListView answer from here over to that one, then edit the question I posted to be about QListWidget as the OP initially intended, but that'd be an edit war because the OP's edit got rolled back.
@Morwenn Oh probably, but it doesn't hurt to try
I mean, just don't expect answers :x
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this is the kid gloves version before I make a meta topic and potentially get the OP a lot of downvotes
this is also a "hey can the C++ community handle this" instead of asking high rep Javascript experts to try and figure out what a Qt Widget is
Nah, the C++ community is mostly dead and moved someplace else
And even before that they didn't really care tbh
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16:15
Out of curiosity, where is someplace else?
Depends, a few are still here, a bunch moved to a private Discord server, some are found on Twitter, etc.
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Those platforms are kinda bad for documenting stuff
that's unfortunate, but I get it
Yeah, it was never about documenting
This was always a place to chill, we still redirect the C++ questions and answers to another room to this day
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IMO SO only paid lip service to documenting stuff anyway, honestly
I think it'd take nothing less than a mod to handle this question's situation single handedly
I'm not sure I'm fluent enough to tell apart the meaning of what you wrote from its exact opposite (wrt lip service)
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16:20
ah, so by lip service I meant they advertised a platform that was the long tail of answers to attract skilled users but I don't think they ever really intended to make a site where it was easy to maintain content beyond a certain shallow level
SO did better than a lot of forums that can't be edited at all, but it's kinda falling apart and the whole UI is optimized for askers, not people trying to document stuff
IMO if SO was really trying to make a repository of programming language, search would have been at the forefront and they'd be investing in cutting edge algorithms that could beat Google's general text based search
They made big efforts to push people to moderate and maintain everything themselves through gamification, but even that has its limits and SO crumbles under the weight of its own success
jrh
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I would actually be really interested to see, e.g., a C++ focused search algorithm that could parse things like templates
It's not the best platform for documentation or for structuring information, but the help you can find for specific problems (by googling them and clicking SO links, haha) is really tremendous
If you want to parse templates you need a proper compiler haha
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well, yeah, but why not, there's online compiler services
More than a compiler you'd need libclang, but even then all the snippets don't compile of their own and need contextual information so you can't really do much about them
It would have a big cost for not much more money
jrh
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16:26
also SO is okay for finding information but only at a basic level and generally the farther you get off the well beaten path the more vague the question titles get, the worse the answers get, and more dead links sneak in
SO is there to find solutions to problems and does so way better than old forums
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@Morwenn I'm not saying it's easy, but considering all the effort people put into documenting stuff, surely somebody can put dev time into making sure people can find the docs?
No, it's too complex a problem
Compiling C++ in a formal self-sufficient context is already a hard enough task
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It doesn't have to be perfect
What we need isn't algorithms to find through code automatically, it's people who write careful questions and careful answers we select words to ensure that Google search returns relevant results :p
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16:29
it just has to be better than Google which can't even handle half the symbols
Even if it doesn't have to be perfect it has to be better than the current Google searches, and that's really hard to beat
Google made the symbols situation a lot nicer though
jrh
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I get junk most of the time from more complex C++ searches
I get relevant results most of the time v0v
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I suspect Google falls back on popularity metrics and ML guesswork for the weirder stuff
But relevant results for complex C++ generally imply using specific standard wording because that's what people will use in answers to complex questions
The whole tag is mostly a C++ thing
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16:32
I get mostly trash when it comes to searching for the ownership of resources
which is pretty darn important for RAII
That's very vague
jrh
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as in, "does this fancy collection type make a copy or is it just a view into something else"
Concepts & documentation, it's not really SO's job
I haven't even heard of SO docs in a long time, is it still a thing?
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no, they pulled the plug on that
Not surprising
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16:34
@Morwenn that sort of question meets all the rules of SO, though
Not too broad, answerable, on topic
It's already crazy hard to write correct documentation for your own projects tbh
jrh
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somebody's gotta do it
literally everything on SO is a gap in somebody's docs
Nobody has to do it though
Fix the docs
When doc is lacking I just open an issue on the project if I feel that's important tbh
jrh
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I think SO got popular partially because nobody wants to learn 500 different documentation formats
and/or bother submitting pull requests and all that
SO is 500 different documentation formats :p
No two answers are formatted the same
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16:37
Also sometimes when you submit doc improvements you get "I think that's clear enough already" from the author
SO has view counts to prove that wrong
Well, IME people are globally better at opening issues in projects than at asking questions on SO that won't be closed :')
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and anyone can edit on SO, not true of docs
The barrier to entry on SO has more than once proven to be super high
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@Morwenn yup, these days it is, all the low hanging fruit is gone I think
Among all my engineer friends a whole bunch simply gave up asking or answering questions because they were always closed, while they still submit issues and PRs to OS projects
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16:39
PRs vary wildly, not every dev cares about docs
Which is when people who had issues and fixed them in a comprehensive manner start writing in-depth articles :p
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if a dev kinda runs on the "my code is great already" mindset they won't document as much even when they probably should
To me SO's best role is "Google error message, get relevant results and solutions", it's where it shines the most
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@Morwenn yeah, and I'd probably be inclined to write a github.io blog or something for articles instead of a SO post, to be fair
jrh
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16:41
though the half life of personal blogs is not very good, lots of nice malware links going to zombie blogs
That's also true
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that's why the marketing behind SO was appealing to me
ideally something that would stick around even when the original authors moved on
I mean I pay for server hosting too, I get it
you look at the bill and one day maybe it's just not fun anymore
SO is a great idea, I just don't think it should be an all-encompassing solution
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or your host one day decides it wants more money and throttles you or shuts you down, or you get hacked or spammed
The day SO closes down we'll be glad there are hundreds of illegal mirrors trying to make money from it x)
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16:43
Most aren't actually illegal, CC BY allows it
Fair point
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@Morwenn I wish I knew what SO actually wanted to be, heh
I think they're too afraid to make any statements about what it is and isn't
@jrh Nowadays? A profitable company, that's what they really want to be
or at least a few years ago thats what they wanted to be
That's sadly the bane of big free tools: at some point you need to be profitable enough to survive (or evolve) or die
16:49
I think MS should buy SO and keep it as a public service
They did a rather fine job with GitHub tbh
tell Bill Gates
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Attract niche early adopters with a specific goal to stand out, have the niche fans be your cheerleaders, attract attention from non-niche users who have nonspecific goals, suddenly nobody remembers what brought the early success, but it doesn't matter anymore because the inertia is strong, hmm
It's always.... tricky, when a company struggles in the late phase of that cycle
The inertia is humongous sometimes
You can read about how of a challenge it was to switch to HTTPS for SO
Anyway, I'm leaving for now
Sorry if I sounded rude or something
jrh
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what success is due to just inertia from good things in the past (that a company may or may not be focusing on anymore) and what success comes from recent decisions can be hard for a company to evaluate (or be motivated to evaluate)
@Morwenn not at all
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17:11
Attempting to speculate on SE's mindset for a bit (I could be wrong), their initial expert cheerleaders are now in the extreme minority, I'd guess they're optimizing for user growth and raw numbers. It might not even be their decision, but something they do under pressure. It's probably difficult to make the case that a tiny percentage of users is worth putting dev time into.
That's a very long way of saying "optimizing for money" is merely correlated with vague, safe goals. I think it's more complicated than that.
18:08
@Mysticial thoughts?
 
3 hours later…
20:51
@jrh If you look at this specific room, it used to host a rather impressive number of users with incredibly high reputation
I don't remember how many were in the top 100 or even top 50 back then, but it wasn't just a couple
They all got bored, got annoyed by SO politics and moderation, didn't feel like contributing anymore and most of them left
Look at the reputation of the current owners and factor in the fact that many haven't contributed to the site in years
On the other hand we were kind of the edgy room and had a whole bunch of issues with mods, which is why many eventually moved away
tracing types down python call stacks sucks :-(
and having the same function support singletons, lists, and numpy arrays is even sadder
sad language
idk I find it pretty accurate with proper use of raise from
@Morwenn we have multiple meta questions... which is more than most rooms
but yeah there was a time when the user board was a lot more full than it is now
I'm surprised the room never actually got banned
I think it was a close thing honestly?
21:01
What if SO didn't support a ban mechanism for rooms?
The number of owners is a hint :p
I suspect the reason it didn't is because they left
They could close rooms
Make them read-only
Back then I guess that the lounge had some kind of power because it hosted a bunch of users that actively contributed to the community, and banning would have likely made those users ragequit
@Morwenn that largely happened anyway?
Its kinda stupid from a business perspective because SO chat a lot of room to grow, for example personalized coding help etc.
21:03
They eventually quit anyway, but the room died at the same time...
I mean even I rarely answer questions anymore. I usually just comment the answer honestly
@Mgetz Yeah but in the end the final move came from loungers and not from the mod team
eh... bit of both really
Same, I think I haven't answered a question in two years
They also changed the policy, so you can't really delete your answers when you rage quit (or at-least you need to manually wipe everything).
21:04
things the management did pushed a lot of folks away from SO
Yeah, who performed the final move is irrelevant to the result
I guess that Mysticial is still active
Not sure about sehe or jerry: they're not even in the room anymore
@Morwenn eh not really
 
2 hours later…
23:01
@Morwenn I just got this brilliant idea, python type hints should also include restrictions/assertions on the value :-)
@Mikhail tbh you can do whatever you want with annotations and decorators to enforce the check
I mean, lets say you only want to accept a number between 1 and 255...
Heck, we even have @singledispatch to overload on type, and you can totally do the same thing to overload on value
lol
thats a lot of typing
literal with every integer between 1 and 255
Second has ValueRange(1, 255)
I wanted to hijack annotations to make a value-dependent type number system in Python
23:51
Whats the use case?
Do I need use cases?
That's not how I've started projects so far :p
I just can't imagine the syntax you'd use...

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