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2:15 AM
@Lapys When I share the house I have constructed, people pay rent to me. Does the people who you share your artwork also pay $ 2 u?
@Mgetz Is it more satisfying than having people (or chickens) using the structure you have constructed as homes?
 
 
5 hours later…
7:00 AM
Today is the start of a massive heatwave.
Ugh.
 
7:51 AM
Was recently chagrined that a single external drive caps at around 23 MB/s
I miss my JBODs :-(
 
Massive heatwave here will peak around 25°C
I live in the far West, in this tiny place where we won't overheat
 
Is it a volcanic eruption or something?
 
Just a heatwave
 
local forecast predicts 7 consecutive days of 30+ temperatures
I don't think we ever had that.
In Belgium, I mean.
 
In France they expect a heatwave similar to that of 2003
 
8:05 AM
Fuck I remember that, it was like 40 in Paris.
Its 13c outside and I can save on AC
If only we had a large enough peltier to generate power from the differential.
I keep getting rejected from regular dev jobs, 6 applications formally rejected...
 
I wish I had a sliding window like in NY apartments so I can put one of those air-conditioning units in it.
 
8:21 AM
@Mikhail Hey, at least you get answers :D
 
New plan is that I pay you and you pay me that way we basically make free money
 
*that way the gov makes free money
Grow potatoes
 
not if you send less than 10k USD
 
It's not money but it's easy and tasty
 
Is it less illegal to print French francs?
 
user7659542
8:26 AM
You have 20 years of software engineering experience, write a piece of code which has 2 threads but you don't use mutexes to protect shared variables.
 
user7659542
Shall I push you off the cliff or will you jump by yourself?
 
I used to teach a class on that, admittedly I did a bad job.
 
user7659542
@Mikhail about pushing people off clifs?
 
user7659542
@Morwenn staying in my lab at home, not going outside with that weather.
 
Just wear a CPU cooling fan
 
user7659542
8:28 AM
I prefer water cooling
 
@Mikhail You can't use them nor convert anymore, so I've no idea whether it's illegal
I guess that you could scam people who collect them, but then they'd probably be more vigilant than anyone
@traducerad In a multithreaded program you die falling from then cliff then someone pushes you from the top
 
Growing potatoes needs skills too.
 
Productively growing potatoes sure
 
But less skills than most other plants.
 
user7659542
@Morwenn out of order execution in real life
 
8:30 AM
But here we happen to find 1.5kg of potatoes every now and then
Like, just check your compost heap and sometimes there are free potatoes x)
 
That happens to our cherry tomatoes. For the past few years, there are always some cherry tomatoes growing somewhere in the backyard. No idea how that happened.
 
Or check somebody else's garden
 
If we throw enough tomatoes on the ground in a small greenhouse, you can be sure that it will also be plentiful in the years to come
But our main problem every year is generally too many "meh" apples to consume
 
Last summer, I planted some potatoes, then didn't come to the rural property for a month during drought, they all died. I only planted a few as experiment so that's okay.
 
make cider
 
8:35 AM
> Italy: two years after having collapsed, the new viaduct of Genoa is inaugurated
^ now that's real life out-of-order execution
@Mikhail Actually there are places where you can give all your unused apples and they give you cider
Generally less than what you gave (they still need to make a profit somehow), but that's definitely better than just throwing away unused apples
 
Our rural property is located in the wine region, there is a winery nearby.
 
Not the best to make cider :p
 
user7659542
@Morwenn lol
 
9:02 AM
youtube.com/watch?v=A3_xrqr5Kdw (this is kinda neat, but feels useless for my work)
 
9:43 AM
In just a few months we started a compost heap at home, and our local garbage sorting center started handling all kinds of plastics
As a result our "normal" garbage bin became super slow to fill
 
user7659542
Isn't there a science out there which analyzes drawings and can tell how children feel/think based on those drawings?
 
There surely are sciences that pretend they do x)
 
user7659542
During meetings my boss makes all kinds of drawings on boards and speaks about software.
 
user7659542
I d like to know how he feels.
 
do you feel anything at all
 
10:14 AM
@fredoverflow great video "death by specificity". This is one reason why JS(Node) works better for us than Java.
 
 
1 hour later…
user7659542
11:35 AM
How come certain companies manage to integrate FPGAs in high-speed switches and routers, knowing FPGA's have a lower clock frequency than CPUs?
 
because they may still out perform software for certain tasks
because they operate realtime
 
nwp
11:51 AM
You should already know that clock speed is not everything.
 
12:15 PM
Clock speed is actually very much not everything. The new japanese super computer is proof of that
 
 
1 hour later…
user7659542
1:25 PM
@nwp Yes, I know but I find this so counter-intuitive
 
@khajvah Those are probably my favorite 5 minutes of Rich Hickey ever :)
 
user7659542
especially here, when talking about high speed router/switches, I'd expect this to be crucial
 
user7659542
the higher the clock frequency the faster you can eg transmit data from network A to network B
 
nwp
Why? A switch will get lots of packets that can all be handled independently. An FPGA that is massively parallel seems to be obviously superior to a CPU.
@traducerad One package sure. Millions of packages no.
 
user7659542
@Mgetz Very interesting point you made. No sarcasm.
 
1:27 PM
@traducerad whereas to me it makes perfect sense, hardware is always faster than software in almost all cases. Software is massively slower.
 
user7659542
@Mgetz unlike eg transistors that operate at the speed of physics. And FPGA operates at the speed of its internal clock
 
isnt it more about paralellism than soft/hard??
 
user7659542
assuming you put yor clock in the process' sensitivity list
 
@traducerad well so does any ASIC. But 400MHz of realtime has lower latency in many cases than 2GHz of software
 
latency != throughput
 
1:29 PM
because 'clock' can mean a lot of things
 
user7659542
@nwp throughput is higher indeed. But imagine if you were to just have a point-to-point connection. In other words your router would just be a repeater, so throughput would not matter. Your bottleneck would be your internal clock
 
if I can fully route a packet in a single clock then I can still outperform software in most cases even with lower technical throughput
 
user7659542
@Mgetz why? I'd expect the 2Ghz to outperform the 400Mhz every time. Just because of the clck frequency. (I presume I must be wrong)
 
@traducerad consider for the sake of discussion things like interrupts etc. ASICs or FPGAs don't need to have those per se. They just operate on available data based on input pins and memory.
 
depends if things can happen in parelell or not
 
1:32 PM
@traducerad well if it takes 1 cycle on the 400MHz to route a packet, and 2000cycles on the 2GHz. Then it doesn't matter. But realistically it's more like 20k-200k for the general purpose CPU
 
ie. operating on bits or bytes per operation
theoretically, sure. but this is the real world, that has limits.
afaict.
 
user7659542
@Mgetz I see. Then I presume the challenge when designing a system is to know how many clockcycles your FPGA will need to be able to output your message?
 
This is why most high end routers use FPGAs to do the majority of their routing and only go to software for exceptions. Because the FPGA can literally be reprogrammed for the new routing rules in the field autonomously.
 
user7659542
Cause maybe due to your design it may take 6 clock cycles, meaning SW will be better
 
@traducerad So in most cases you have some fixed function ASICs that do main routing, you have FPGAs for the main rules engine. You have software for exceptions and management
This is usually for pure latency reasons
the ASICs probably run in the 2GHz range
Your main throughput isn't the FPGA, it's the ASICs
The FPGA does decision making in hardware for the ASICs so they can repeat the decision later without doing anything.
a 3.0GHz Xeon will always do worse than an ASIC due to the overhead of running that with an OS etc.
 
user7659542
1:39 PM
@Mgetz How can you know in advance how many CPU and FPGA cycles something will take?
 
user7659542
If I were to want to build a router I d have no clue, in advance, how many cycles my HW will need without building it
 
@traducerad you would look into that when deciding what parts to use. You would heavily test this to make that decision. But the CPU would get outperformed in almost all cases unless it's running in realtime mode. But at that point you'd lose a lot of performance from losing threads etc.
 
user7659542
@Mgetz "what parts to use" you mean which FPGA model to choose?
 
@traducerad You'd be building to a focus. Also you basically model most of the things you'd do in software in hardware. In man cases you're just matching two or three fields in a packet header. You can easily do that in fixed function units in an ASIC
@traducerad Yes, but you also need to consider things like write cycles. Fixed function units built in etc.
 
user7659542
@Mgetz build some sort of prototype/proof of concept you mean?
 
1:42 PM
Yes, but you'd extensively test all of this. To see how much you can put in a single cycle. If it means you need to use an ASIC (extra cost) etc.
if you can do the whole thing in an FPGA that saves money in most cases
you can save the ASICs for the higher end super expensive parts
If you look at switching you're just matching MAC addresses, even IP addresses don't matter
so inter-router traffic doesn't get routed per se it just hits in memory tables that say if it's valid to switch to that MAC or not. If it's not it gets handed to the routing engine.
 
user7659542
@Mgetz "to see how much you can put in a single cycle", typically I think you can only output a single bit per clock cycle if it is a serial communication. For instance the wires going to your RJ45 connector carry serial data.
 
user7659542
so, isn't the answer to that question always 1 bit? If you re dealing with serial stuff
 
@traducerad That's separate off the shelf ICs in many cases, even if they come from the same company
 
depends on protocol..there is more than 1 wire..
 
in many cases you're talking literally just memory movement
 
1:47 PM
youd have to define the operations required...read in the data, compare to ram, etc..
 
user7659542
@ABuckau No ethernet has only 1 wire whch carries data (neglecting the noise cancellation mechanism they have with the + and -)
 
let's say you've designed your system so that the memory page size is around the size of a packet. you can literally just use virtual memory mapping tricks to hand it off to an adapter.
 
ie. what steps are involved in 'routing'
 
@ABuckau don't confuse layer 1 with layer 2
 
ethernet being the protocol..reread what i said.
 
1:48 PM
or layer 3
routers are in general layer 3 devices, switches layer 2
 
user7659542
@Mgetz I don't get the point you re trying to make here
 
user7659542
@Mgetz you mean it s a separate IC which may buffer the serial data and is therefor not related to the FPGA anymore?
 
@traducerad the routing engine gives zero craps about the adapter. That is a physical later concern. The routing and switching engines only care about later 3 and 2 respectively
@traducerad correct, you only send it in a format that IC cares about which is generally just setting up in memory tables etc.
so the IC will have data structures and registers that tell them where those data structures are
 
user7659542
OK, but then my point still holds: the answer to "to see how much you can put in a single cycle" is always 1 in a serial communication. Unless you start using an FPGA with a zillion pins so you output everything parallelly
 
@traducerad depends? you can make multiple 'threads' in an FPGA
but it's not like a CPU
 
1:52 PM
how much, 1, what?
 
It's a fixed function unit
 
user7659542
@Mgetz you can indeed have multiple logical blocks. But still you cannot output more than 1 bit per clock cycle
 
@traducerad That makes no sense? You'd probably design it such that you're outputting enough in parallel onto a bus to route quickly. But it's all implementation dependent. Sure per pin that might be the case but you're going to have more than 1 pin
 
user7659542
Take this for instance:
 
user7659542
 
user7659542
1:54 PM
(random image from the internet)
 
user7659542
as you can see every time you have a rising clock edge your address gets incremented
 
user7659542
meh wait, that s not a very good example...
 
Yes but you'll notice it's referring to Address[0:31] there are 32 address pins?
 
you could do 100 of (that) at once
 
user7659542
@Mgetz I presume it must be a vector of 32 bits
 
user7659542
1:56 PM
but he will never be able to output that 32 bit value once in 1 single clock hit
 
@traducerad no those are pins on the same bus clock
 
this is starting to feel..fruitless
 
@ABuckau It is because you need to understand a lot more about how individual routers are architected and that's all largely trade secret. But honestly this is closer to a DSP or a GPU than it is a CPU in how it works
mostly because it pretty much is a DSP
 
sure, the problem is not clearly defined to me. but i dont care to know. but not sure what trad. is trying to get out of this convo
 
user7659542
@ABuckau simple: routers/switched are (inter alia) made out of fpgas. Yet FPGAs have a lower clock frequency than CPUs. Why do they use FPGAs which (I would think) slow everything down?
 
2:01 PM
@traducerad Not purely, they use a lot of ASICs too
 
user7659542
asic is just the next step after fpga...
 
using FPGAs purely would be prohibitive from a power usage
 
user7659542
except it costs millions of dollars
 
psralellism.? to which you ask "which parts?" : idk..but thats the only logical reason(?).
 
@traducerad different, uses the FPGA does things like routing engine rules. ASICs do the majority of the switching, actual routing etc.
stuff that doesn't change all that much at customer whim
 
nwp
2:03 PM
That and that FPGA clock cycles and CPU clock cycles are not comparable because you do different things during each of them.
 
No OS or mode switching, or interrupts in many cases helps too
 
but you could run the cpu without an OS.?
i mean, why not...running just one application.
obviously not that simple..but in theory
g2g :(
 
@ABuckau you can but you lose the benefits of a CPU in most cases then, particularly things like multiprocessing and coordination.
CPUs are good at doing really general tasks
 
user7659542
So what I boil down from this is that on FPGAs there is a way to serially output multiple bits/bytes in a single clock cycle
 
user7659542
which may be the reason why they are interesting in routers/switches besides their hight throughput/parallelism
 
2:07 PM
@traducerad wrong lesson. They are a way of taking something that would take 80-200k cycles on a CPU and turn them into something that can be done near realtime in far fewer cycles
 
user7659542
@Mgetz Ok, fair enough
 
This is why modems are ASICs for example, it's not because a CPU couldn't do it. It's because it takes a lot more time for a CPU to do it
and these things are often latency sensitive
 
user7659542
although an FPGAs clock frequency is lower thanks to it being able to do stuff parallelly you are able to greatly reduce the number of clock cycles needed and therefor outperform a CPU
 
pretty much
 
user7659542
Interesting
 
2:09 PM
also power reasons
but yeah think of it as this ASICs are your first line of defense, they handle 80-95% of the work
 
user7659542
I realize writing vhdl/verilog is one thing, but really grasping it and being able to put and use an fpga (in a clever way) in a system is quite a different thing
 
user7659542
being able to say "look here we should use an fpga because xyz" takes another level of understanding
 
FPGAs are your second line, they handle 4% of the work. CPUs are your last line for when everything goes wrong.
 
user7659542
to me an ASIC is just an FPGA design which got put into an IC
 
user7659542
and you paid millions for that to happen
 
user7659542
2:11 PM
oh and you consume less energy
 
@traducerad not necessarily, the critical part is "Field Programmable" e.g. you can actually have the router OS reprogram the entire FPGA in the field
so if your user says I want rules X, Y, Z, and then do this for everything else. You can potentially do all of those in the FPGA
 
user7659542
So far I have only seen FPGAs being used in two cases:

- video packing
- signal routing
 
They are used in automotive all the time, ditto areospace
particularly for the latter... a CPU may be too slow
 
user7659542
2:29 PM
well in aerospace they are not using it for speed reasons afaik
 
ASan is bullying me ç_ç
 
are you sure? Because there are a lot of FPGAs in Avionics
 
nwp
Bully it back.
Tell it UBSan is better.
 
I'm trying to fix my memory errors to own it
UBsan had been useful exactly once
 
nwp
That's just appeasement. See where that got Poland.
Put a memory error in ASan and laugh at it to assert dominance.
 
2:34 PM
HAHA
Oh, UBsan might have actually been useful twice
Totally worth the hours of CI it has eaten up over the years
Why is stealing code without making the effort to understand it so error prone :'(
It's unfair
 
user7659542
3:10 PM
@Mgetz for instance due to cosmic rays some parts of your CPU may be damaged. An FPGA allows you to reprogram everything as you want and to place your "hardware" at other non damaged places
 
user7659542
if that makes sense to you...
 
@traducerad they should be shielded enough and be rad-hardend for anything super critical
 
 
2 hours later…
5:06 PM
That rename... :D
 
 
2 hours later…
7:22 PM
@traducerad lol
 
 
2 hours later…
8:59 PM
 

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