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1:38 AM
@Mysticial Hey, can you ever seen this performance problem. std::calloc takes ~ 40 seconds to to allocate 16 GB of RAM (system total 64 GB) on one of my dual socket systems. But normally takes a second on almost all other system. Is there something special about memory allocation time on multisocket systems?
 
Maybe your system is highly fragmented.
 
2:24 AM
@Mysticial Just for the record, this is not c++ wizard skills but a more specialized skillset.
 
2:53 AM
@CaptainGiraffe Of course.
@Mikhail Seems like the difference is whether library or OS is zeroing the memory on-the-fly or if it's relying on zero-on-first-touch by the OS.
 
Well doing std::calloc should actually zero it? So there shouldn't be a difference between single vs dual socket. Also its Windows.
 
Logically yes. But you can cheat by relying on the OS to zero on page-fault.
I can't explain the difference between 1 vs. 2 sockets.
Seems OS-specific.
 
I decided to reinstall the entire OS instead of debugging :-)
 
A profiler may be able to tell you whether it's the library that's zeroing or the OS.
Keeping in mind that the library may be some system .dll which can vary depending on what the system is.
 
Have you ever measured page fault latency times on single vs dual socket?
 
3:03 AM
I haven't. I assume any page-fault to be "infinitely long". So I try to design it out.
 
Me too, thats why I allocated all the memory but now I moved the infinity to program startup :-(
Which is bad user experience
 
3:45 AM
@Mikhail check the implementation you should be able to see it via the source
In theory it's just HeapAlloc
 
 
2 hours later…
5:24 AM
static byte enter_config[]={0x01,0x43,0x00,0x01,0x00};
static byte set_mode[]={0x01,0x44,0x00,0x01,0x03,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x00};
static byte set_bytes_large[]={0x01,0x4F,0x00,0xFF,0xFF,0x03,0x00,0x00,0x00};
static byte exit_config[]={0x01,0x43,0x00,0x00,0x5A,0x5A,0x5A,0x5A,0x5A};
static byte enable_rumble[]={0x01,0x4D,0x00,0x00,0x01};
static byte type_read[]={0x01,0x45,0x00,0x5A,0x5A,0x5A,0x5A,0x5A,0x5A};
How am I supposed to understand this code when there is no comment?
 
6:17 AM
@tel which part do you need explained?
 
The first 2 lines
 
they define some magic numbers.
 
...
That's what they say pre-Isaac Newton times.
 
monkey noises
check the documentation for the software youre interacting with if you want to know why the numbers are what they are.
 
6:47 AM
@ABuckau When you see a fat raccoon do you think: 1) the raccoon is skilled at foraging for food. 2) the raccoon is good at begging for help from other people
Of course when your beg doesn't fruit, you would have to go foraging ...
 
7:44 AM
@tel depends , if it runs towards me or away.
 
 
3 hours later…
10:31 AM
@ABuckau What's the difference?
 
11:16 AM
Only if we could harvest energy generated from bush/forest fires.
 
Don't we implicitly harvest some of it with wind energy :P
 
11:46 AM
Congratulations on that less than 1% efficiency.
 
 
4 hours later…
3:26 PM
@TelKitty If it were even close to 1%, it wouldn't be so bad--but I'd guess it's actually well under one part per billion...
 
The Lounge is not a parrot!
 
is an order or magnitude ... or 10 ... really that important though? :P
 
We need to stop burning all that wood and to use it to actually build stuff instead
And to plant trees back
 
nwp
So we can hug the trees.
 
It's a trap!
A carbon one
 
4:04 PM
the second best kind of trap
 
nwp
gay
 
Gays are also partly made of carbon though
 
@Morwenn but is is happy carbon
 
it sure is
 
4:25 PM
@TelKitty Have you found what they mean? xD
 
4:50 PM
I find it so cool to have magic hex in code.
 
@Dexter I reject code with magic numbers. Please explain your rune combination or don't bother submitting the PR in the first place.
 
nwp
I remember someone from CppCon complaining about people explaining stuff in reviews. It doesn't help that the reviewer now understands, the code is still confusing. You have to change the code and hand it in for a review again instead of explaining it.
 
@nwp not in the PR, in the file
either via naming the items or other techniques
 
5:27 PM
@nwp Usually. There are cases where the reviewer simply got off on the wrong foot and misunderstood code that honestly was quite clear. Rare, but it does happen now and again.
Just for one example, a few years ago I wrote some code that allocated some extra space between items it actually used, to assure that each item that was used would end up in a separate cache line, to prevent cache aliasing. And even though the code had a comment saying it was to prevent cache aliasing, a couple of reviewers were confused about how code that wasn't doing graphics would need anti-aliasing...
 
@JerryCoffin I thought there as a tool in the stdlib for this now
 
@Mgetz Normally if people have magic number, then there will be a obvious reason for it. And finding how the author was thinking is fun xD
 
w = 16
(int) log2(w) usually return 4 but it sometimes return 3 for the same value of w.
Is there any reason for such a misbehaviour of C++?
 
@Dexter IME? not really, magic numbers usually are some hidden meaning that requires debugging or tracing back through the code to figure out what should have been a constant in the first place.
 
5:41 PM
@Mgetz I think people will debug anyway , even if there is no magic number.
for numbers only used once or twice, it is ok for me.
 
6:07 PM
@Mgetz There sort of is--at least now, it'll tell you how much padding you need. But this code predated any of that being added to stdlib.
@Mgetz There's certainly lots of code that has all sorts of strange magic numbers that don't have obvious meanings at all. In the other direction, I've seen some that insisted on something like static const int zero = 0; to avoid using 0 as a magic number (and somehow seemed to think zero was actually an improvement).
 
6:25 PM
@JerryCoffin really?
I mean NULL to nullptr I understand or even using NULL instead of 0... but really!?
 
Hey, it's a bit orthogonal but C2x might be getting nullptr too
 
Gotta love the internet. There are people on OC forums are calling AMD "a big fail" because AMD is pricing their new Threadripper chips above $1k USD and therefore they can't afford it.
 
@Mgetz Truly and honestly (modulo the detail that it might have been done as #define zero 0 instead--I can't remember for sure, but it kind of seems like this might have been C code).
 
@Morwenn kinda surprised it didn't as it meant that systems that required using the zero address for something were non-compliant
@Mysticial so... the intel HEDT chips are somehow cheaper now 🙄
 
@Mgetz not at all, 0 is the null pointer literal but it isn't required to assign an actual 0 as the underlying null pointer value
 
6:29 PM
@Mysticial Well they're obviously right--I mean, Intel's 32-core chips are practically free... :-)
 
@Morwenn no I was referring to the zero address. In C++ nullptr isn't guaranteed to be zero but NULL is
thus systems that use the zero address for things Glares at DOS are non-compliant
 
@Mgetz Morwenn's point is that even though NULL is required to be zero, assigning NULL to a pointer is not required to produce a pointer with all bits set to zero.
 
^ that
 
@Mysticial they quoted the intel price waay off... like 1k $1979.00 - $1999.00
that's directly from intel
 
6:33 PM
@Mgetz The new 18-core is only 1k.
Intel halved it to 2k from the previous "generation".
 
@Mysticial IOW, Intel is desperate to keep from losing too much market share, so they've adopted a semi-sane price for a reasonably high-end product, for the first time in at least a decade.
 
@Mgetz Wrong one. That's the SLX refresh. Look at the Cascade lake one.
 
@Mysticial not on Ark yet, pricing isn't final
 
Intel has been advertising a 2x increase in price/performance for CLX HEDT.
There's no performance increase. So it's the price cut which - lemme find the source.
 
6:42 PM
still comparing a 24 core 48 thread part to a 18/36 part
honestly the threadripper better compares to the 28/56 parts from intel?
 
And yet the dude is complaining that the price is too high. I want my 64 core TR for free and it must come with free installation and breakfast while I wait.
 
@Mysticial again... different class of part. TR really isn't in the same category at all last I checked. Intel just knows that the 18 core part is what people will buy because of the clock.
nevermind the fact that they'll never actually get those clocks on most x299 boards
 
As an aside, I would love to hear suggestions from people that have nothing to do with hats. -- Ok. I have two. Firstly: Just Don't (I suspect I'm not alone with having nothing to do with hats because I don't want to have anything to do with hats). Secondly, just to keep the pot boiling, how about a Reinstate Monica hat? — Rob Moir Nov 8 at 11:47
^^ hahaha
 
because the VRMs are too weak
 
This is great:
6
A: Suggestions for Winter Bash 2019

Ver Nick says Reinstate MonicaReinstate Monica hat

 
6:47 PM
@Mysticial ...and inevitable.
 
@Mgetz Yes because people want the 64 core for < $500 and use it for - gaming...
 
@Mysticial because that won't cause issues.. right. Either way the 3960X will absolutely destroy the intel part on anything to do with memory in most cases just because it has more cache
 
@Mgetz I bypassed their VRMs and added my own power supply...
 
>>> no 3950X is an expensive mainstream CPU.
I don't see a real upgrade to 2950X, I'm so disappointed.
WTF
 
wut
 
6:52 PM
@JerryCoffin it supplies enough voltage but the current might be an issue
 
@Mgetz Rated for 500 amps.
 
@Mgetz Oh. He meant that he has the 2950X and there's nothing worth upgrading to?
Fuck, I assumed the OP was male by using "he". I'm gonna get banned.
 
@Mikhail apparently nobody believes you exist overclock.net/forum/10-amd-cpus/…
because who would ever beat the snot out of PCI-e lanes at 4.0
 
@Mysticial Hmm...would giving you a timeout actually have any effect on a room owner? I'm tempted to put this to the test... :-)
 
@JerryCoffin no
 
7:01 PM
@Mgetz Kinda figured it shouldn't.
 
Skylake's been out since antiquity. And they just found it now?
 
@Mysticial wait this wasn't already a thing? I thought intel always had issues with jumps across cache-lines? Maybe I'm only thinking of other architectures where instruction size isn't insane
 
In this case it looks like a correctness bug as opposed to just a performance one.
 
ah OK, yeah that makes sense... not surprised intel does stupid crap
 
But the patch turns it from a correctness bug to a performance one.
 
7:05 PM
@Mysticial my guess is because most Jumps probably aren't on cache lines and are near jumps which are smaller and thus less likely to have this happen
the likely candidates for this are FAR jumps
:47823681 no I think you're right, but remember that may include prefixes and immediates
 
@Mgetz Sure.
 
@JerryCoffin I suspect that it's more complicated than that, where for example the prefix and instruction may cause the issue but the immediate won't etc.
 
@Mgetz Yeah, I'm trying to find the actual erratum, but I'm not sure I have. The closest I can see is SKX67:
 
no idea, almost willing to bet this erratum affects haswell and broadwell too
 
I'm not at all sure that's the erratum being discussed here though. Unfortunately, the article doesn't seem to specify Intel's errata number for it.
Oh, I'll bet this is it:
And boy, ain't that an informative description?
 
7:21 PM
> Something is wrong with the processor.
 
@Mysticial ...but we're not gonna fix it.
 
7:34 PM
Trying to refactor someone's code only to discover that their unit tests assert that the floating-point round-off is exactly as the original. FFS...
 
@Mysticial Was thinking about this while watching a video, TR really isn't a HEDT part except that first one. They compete with Xeon-W not the intel HEDT parts if you really think about it.
 
@Mgetz The 32-core doesn't count as HEDT?
 
@Mysticial it's at the ragged edge, but if you look at what AMD is positioning it against it's not 9980XEs it's Xeon-w
 
Or rather the W3175X/W3275X.
 
Yep, and from that perspective TR3 is out of the park
tbf the intel parts compete with themselves at that point but I'm largely skeptical of most x299 boards really supporting sustaining those clocks
 
7:45 PM
@Mgetz From the power-delivery aspect?
 
Yes, very much so. The majority of x299 that I've seen can't deliver that much power to the socket and would likely have really rough power even if they could.
They seem focused well below the 150W mark
 
The higher-end boards have no problem delivering upwards of 400W sustained.
 
not saying they couldn't do it briefly
@Mysticial the new ones, yes. The vast majority... eh...
 
I have two of them, my Gaming 7 will sustain 300W. The Designare EX will do 400W easily. Both are well above the thermal limits of the CPUs since I haven't delided either.
With sufficient cooling (on the CPU), my Designare could probably sustain 500W given how much room there's left at just 400W.
 
at the end of the day I have neither board nor CPU in hand to test with. Nor the FU money to buy them
 
7:49 PM
But my CPU won't allow since it'll shoot well above 100C.
The lower-end X299 boards (the ones without the heatpipe to the back panel will have trouble above just 200W)
 
@Mysticial what's Vccin on x299?
2.1v?
 
@Mgetz 1.8v, but every OCer who knows what they're going will be running it above 1.90v.
I think I run 1.900. The more extreme OCers will go up to 2.1v. But that's danger territory.
 
@Mysticial Theoretical max on that board is 760W but they are just 50A PowIRStages
so reasonably speaking anything above about 20A per stage is going to get toasty
eight stage VRM btw
 
The Designare has active cooling on the VRMs.
So it's a step above the Gaming 7 (non-pro).
 
damn wrong board
 
7:54 PM
The Gaming 7 (Pro) is the same as the Designare, but with better aesthetics.
 
stupid manufacturers using the same name
12 stage 60A Intersil powerstages
Theoretical max of just under 1.4KW
 
I think all 3 of them have the same VRMs. (Gaming 7 with and without Pro + Designare) But the Gaming 7 (non-pro) lacks the VRM fan.
 
but the inductors max out first at 51A each before saturation... and you wouldn't want to get even close to that
honestly it looks like reasonable delivery on the high end board is 600-700w
that said that's to the power plane not to the socket or the chip
 
@Mgetz The rumors that I've heard are that the W3175X has problems with the socket in terms of power delivery.
 
@Mysticial socket resistance is a thing yes... and can be nasty
 
8:00 PM
There's enough VRMs on that thing to handle like 2kw+. But if you sustain it for an extended period of time, the socket breaks down. But I have yet to hear independent confirmation of this.
 
@Mysticial Not to mention the minor detail that you're getting disturbingly close to the maximum you can pull from a normal 110 V socket. You're usually limited to 20 amps (2200 watts) for a circuit, but (of course) you'd normally expect your GPU(s), monitors, etc., to be on the same circuit as the CPU...
 
8:16 PM
hahaha
@JerryCoffin That's a problem I've hit in my computer room.
Since my "computer room" is just the master bedroom, it only has the "normal" single-rail for the whole room. When I've got all computers running simultaneously + a humidifier in the winter, it'll pop.
And I'm not exactly willing to tear down the walls to add additional rails. Even a washer/dryer or kitchen power socket would do.
Actually, if I could use the electric heating rails that would be great. Those are ridiculously high since it's - Chicago.
 
8:51 PM
-8
Q: German embassy in Nigeria studies visa refusal

James OkorieI applied for for study visa from German embassy in Nigeria with my language course admission letter/blocks acount €8.800,with health insurance. but was reject that they dauting the poppose of visit that now after appeal they reply that we should that they are looking into it.since 4 months till...

 
@Mysticial It'd be kind of a pain, but an electrician might be able to snake in another wire from the breaker panel, to add an extra circuit just for the computer. Alternatively, add a wind turbine outside the window... :-)
> Columbia says Reinstate Monica
Nice.
 
haha
 
@Mysticial I'm pretty sure a simple 440/3 phase line should handle that without a problem (provided it's well insulated and less than 2000 square feet).
 
I'm not even sure how the electric heating works. Under each of the floor-to-ceiling windows, there's a heating element that sounds like those oil heaters, but mounted into the wall. There's also forced air heating that's independent of that. But I turn that off because it sucks out all the humidity.
The electric heating does have its own breakers.
My dad said it's technically possible to just replace the breaker with a higher amperage one. But that's obviously not safe if the underlying circuits aren't rated to handle the higher draw. Might also violate some building code.
 
9:14 PM
@Mysticial Would almost certainly violate building code. In an individual house that's been remodeled, somebody might (easily) use larger wire than required just because it's what they found, they were paranoid, it happened to be on clearance sale, etc. But at least as I recall, you're in a pretty large condominium. Chances of that accidentally having heavier wire than required are minimal (to put it mildly).
 
9:32 PM
Yes, the wire may be over the requirements.
but if you can't be certain it is, better not to
 
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too. It's a large condominium building and there's no way to check the existing wires without tearing the place up.
Maybe looking behind the circuit breaker would work.
"Condominium" sounds like some heavy metal element.
 
If you have an ohm meter, you could potentially measure the length of a wire and its resistance and give an approximation of the wire size
thought now that I think of it, it would require a precise ohm meter and a way to measure large distance :/
 
It also fans out to at least 5 different plugs in the room.
I count 7 actually.
 
That said, can you somehow measure the actual current being pulled?
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Maybe if I insert something into the circuit breaker itself.
 
9:38 PM
may be the breaker gets triggered by inrush current when a motor start running?
So you could potentially just put a beefy condenstator next to a device like AC unit
 
Last time I broke it was when I had 2 humidifiers and 5 computers simultaneously running my test suite. Within a minute of putting that 5th computer under load, it popped.
That's when I realized that the plug by the door (where the humidifiers are) are on the same circuit as the rest of the room.
Because I've simultaneously run up to 6 of my machines under load before with no issues before.
Also, I think the ceiling mounted lamp is halogen and also on the same circuit.
Not that I care about power efficiency during the winter. The more things that produce heat the better.
 
that said, are you sure your building is actually up to code already?
 
I'm pretty sure it is because the building is huge. If they systematically fucked up every unit, somebody would've found out by now.
When I add up the power draw of all the computers running + the humidifiers, it's definitely into that 2kw range.
So I'm not surprised that it did trip the breaker.
Solved the problem by running an extension cord from the 2nd bedroom to run the humidifiers.
In any case. It's supposed to be a master bedroom. Nobody draws 2kw out of a master bedroom. Maybe if you're running two hair dryers at the same time while watching TV because the bathroom usually doesn't have a TV.
 
I don't think I draw 2Kw from any room except for the oven
 
Last year during the polar vortex, I had a thick layer of ice at the bottom of my balcony door. (condensation from the humifiers which froze on the metal door) Given how thick the ice was, I had to get rid of it or it would melt and get into the floor.
So I took a hair dryer to it.
Blew the circuit in the living room.
Even after turning off the TV and the computer, still kept blowing it.
Didn't figure out why a single hair dryer would pop it. But later on, I suspect it's the halogen ceiling lamp that was putting it over the limit.
*Not last year. Early this year.
 
9:54 PM
@Mysticial I have towels against the bottom of my exterior doors
 
@Mgetz Same. I learned my lesson after that.
I've been doing the same on all my windows. But never thought to do it on the door.
It's a pain-in-the-ass though. During the worst of winter, I'll need to replace the towels every few days because they will saturate from water. And they are frozen to the windows so I usually need to hair dryer them out.
Then throw the ice hard frozen towels into the unused shower to defrost and dry before putting them back on the windows.
In my computer room, I have an entire desk of computers against the window. It's a pain-in-the-ass to get to the bottom of that window to replace the towels.
So I'm actually considering getting yet another of those adjustable standing desks just so I could elevate the damn thing to get to the bottom of the window.
 
Wow o_o
 
Since winter is the best time to run my computers, I'm typically maxing out the circuit breaker in that computer room. So I need to run an extension cord from a different room to run the hair dryer.
If it weren't for my job, I wouldn't be in the midwest. lol
 
@Mysticial aren't you in a high rise built sometime recently? With double pane windows?
 
@Mgetz They are double-paned, but the frames are metal.
Mar 19 '17 at 17:42, by Mysticial
user image
The condensation is usually on the window frames - which will be well below freezing even on the inside.
So the moisture from the humidifiers will condense on the window frames. Then drip down to the bottom of the frame where it freezes solid either directly on the frame or in a towel I place there.
 
10:11 PM
@Mysticial that's normal, when I was in Russia, my mother in law installed metal door as front door and we'd get a few cm of ice on the frames during winter
 
@Mysticial lower the shades during winter, it traps a layer of dryer colder air against the window
 
You may want to have isolation foam sprayed inside the frame to improve isolation but I guess there's little you can do
 
you can also use the film that's popular in canada to keep the moisture out of the frame
 
@Mgetz In the bedroom that I sleep in, the shades are lowered all the time. I haven't noticed any less condensation on those windows than the other ones.
@Mgetz How does that work?
 
basically? you shrink wrap the windows and it traps the air in a much better sealed way
 
10:15 PM
Does it work on the window frame?
 
a little hard to do with that corner you have
but it does work
 
transform your 2 glass window in 3 glass window
 
The windows are fine. They're double-paned. It's just the frames.
 
yes but works better if you use the wall
 
@Mysticial it's going to prevent humidity of your room to get in contact with the frame
no humidity no condensation
 
10:16 PM
got it, that's what I was hoping for.
I think I'll have to try it.
 
Also just to be sure, you can probably leave some SiO2 packet inside to absorb humidity
 
Problem is, winter came early this year (below freezing this week) and the frames are already soaking wet. Not ice on the inside yet since it's not that cold yet.
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I need the humidity for myself.
 
oh yeah, we got 30cm of snow in a day here
 
@Mysticial yeah the issue is still that corner... but if you're careful with it, it should work
 
Without the humidifiers, condensation isn't a problem. But then I'll dry up and die.
 
10:18 PM
you might have to put up a dowel to keep the corner though
ok I need to get off before I go insane... today has not been fun
 
later
@JerryCoffin Does condensation ever get as bad as this in Denver?
Not sure how cold it is there though.
 
10:36 PM
@Mysticial I lived in Colorado Springs, not Denver. It rarely gets really cold (some winters it probably doesn't even get below zero). Big thing is what sort of windows you have--aluminium frames have pretty serious problems. In Colorado I had wood frames with vinyl coating, which insulate pretty well.
 
Denver and Colorado Springs aren't the same thing? :P
 
11:09 PM
@Mysticial Now that you mention it, they nearly are the same thing any more. Or at least Denver's southern suburbs and COS' northern suburbs are pretty close to meeting in the middle, anyway.
 
I knew it!
 
@Mysti small fan pointed at the window?
 
@ABuckau Which message are you replying to?
 
condensation problem
 
Ah. That's not practical. Windows are too large and there's too many of them.
Not sure if it would work anyway.
 
11:31 PM
 
@Rick The condensation is caused by humidifiers that I use to keep the humidity above 30%.
 
@Mysticial How far about 30% do you try for? Unless it's really well insulated, it's going to be tough to avoid condensation if it goes about 40% or so...
 
Soon your ceiling will turn dark because of mold
 
@Mysticial I am sure there is a hydrophobic spray for windows you can get
 
@JerryCoffin I don't expect to be able to avoid the condensation. Just enough to at make all the towel-replacement stuff more manageable. So this winter I'll be doing a few things - one of which is replacing my computer desk by the window with an adjustable one. Another thing is to get a faster way to defrost/dry the frozen towels that doesn't involve shoving them in the dryer.
I used to try to keep it above 40%. But that was unachievable in January even when I was putting 12 gallons into the air every day.
My tolerance has increased a bit, so I'm targetting 30-35% this winter.
The biggest headache isn't the condensation. It's maintaining the humidifiers themselves.
They require constant cleaning and they break down all the time.
 
11:43 PM
@Mysticial That seems like it should probably be quite a bit more manageable.
 
Most of the shit you buy off the shelve will break after a couple months or become unreliable at full blast 24/7 for long enough.
This year, I'm trying something different. Fuck it with the humidifiers that need cleaning. I'll use industrial grade humidifiers that use filters.
How ever much I end up paying replacing filters will probably be worth the time and headache spent maintaining a bunch of household humidifiers.
 
@Mysticial In Colorado I had a whole-home one, so there was a water pipe going to a...thing in the flue next to the furnace. In 10 years I barely had to do anything to it.
 
just buy a huge 100-pound bag of industrial-grade desiccant
 
@Rick That does the opposite of keeping moisture in the air?
@JerryCoffin I kind of have something like that on order.
A 2700 sq.ft one.
Should be arriving later this week.
 
so what's wrong with RainX or the other hydrophobic window sprays
 
11:49 PM
@Mysticial How big is your condo?
 
@Rick I'm probably going to do something like that for the window frames this year.
@JerryCoffin 1500
 
@Rick From what he pointed out above, most of the condensation is on the frames, not the windows themselves.
 
And it takes 12 gallons/day to keep it barely above 30%.
But I can't find a volume/day rating on the humidifiers. Just a "sqft" rating which is kinda useless.
 
@Mysticial I suspect that just moves the problem. If the water is still condensing, hydrophobic spray just means it's less likely to leave a few drops behind as it flows down to the floor (or window sill).
 
@JerryCoffin Insulating is probably the right thing to do instead.
Hydrophobic sounds like the next social issue that SE will try to tackle.
 
11:52 PM
@Mysticial Swimmers beware: the hydrophobes are out to get you!
 
To summarize: For this winter:
1. Optimize the condensation handling process.
2. Switch to lower maintenance humidifiers.
 
@JerryCoffin condensation is going to form somewhere, the cold holds less moisture. I thought gas-filled or vacuum windows were a standard now for homes.
 
@Rick The windows are double-paned/vacuum. But the frames are metal.
 
@Mysticial I'd also think hard about the shrink wrap that @Mgetz pointed out. I used something like that in my first house in Colorado, and it worked pretty well there.
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah, that would go under #1. Reduce the amount of condensation.
 
11:58 PM
@Mysticial why don't you paint the frames with a less heat-conductive paint
if the frames are the source of the problem.
 

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