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12:06 AM
Also fuck std::filesystem::path append operator for changing the path-in place. Can't do auto full_path = dir.append( path) if dir is a constant
Also I'm probably doing something wrong
 
Hey, have anyone ever tried to convert c++ libraries to c# by swig?
 
12:25 AM
@Mikhail Certainly easier to use: auto full_path = dir / path;
 
I was getting some compilation oddities when dir was const
 
@Mikhail Hmm...I've seen it work when it's const, but I'll admit I've never tried to push hard to find all the dark corners (and, of course, you could be seeing a bug in an implementation).
 
@JerryCoffin Sometimes it's '/' sometimes it's '\' - depends on whether you are using linux/unix or windows.
 
@TelKitty std::filesystem overloads operator/ for paths, so it appends paths together, and it's up to the implementation to use the correct syntax for the underlying system (e.g., I'd expect '/' on Linux, either '\' or '/' on windows, and ':' on VMS).
Since there is no `operator\`, it clearly can't/won't/doesn't overload it, regardless of the underlying system.
@10Replies Some regulars here are probably sick of hearing me say it, but it depends on the student. When/if physicists and mathematicians learn to program, they're often very comfortable with fairly abstract languages like APL, Haskell and Agda (and in many cases, never deal with lower level languages at all). On the other hand, many electrical engineers are pretty happy starting with assembly language, possibly moving on to C and/or Fortran, but dislike anything higher level than that.
 
12:48 AM
Also everybody I know who uses haskell in production is a a total looser with a degree in something intimidating and a job that involves the absolutely most boring kind of code parsing data. Also 100% of them are on antidepressants.
 
@Mikhail mathematicians don't do production. They write some squirrely code that ran well enough to (at least in their opinion) confirm their preconceived notions about something, publish a paper, and repeat ad nauseam.
 
That's the best case, most of them don't publish anything. Its "okay" in their community because everybody is "nice". Their thesis can easily be a rephrasing of a previous paper or work. Which really means they paginated something in Latex.
You don't know how lame mathematicians are. Most of them don't do math, they are just paid to do math.
 
The few mathematicians I know of are very brilliant, just not the best coders.
 
@Mikhail No matter what they're paid for, if they don't do math, I don't consider them mathematicians.
 
You lack the technical expertise to judge is they are "really" doing math :-)
That's the trick with mathematicians :-(
 
1:01 AM
@Mikhail That's certainly true in some areas. There are a few where I can spot BS part of the time though.
@Mikhail They even conspire about it. Von Neummann once advised Shannon to use the word "entropy", because it would make it (nearly) impossible for anybody to argue about exactly what he/it meant (and having published his own theory on entropy ~20 years before, Von Neumann knew of what he spoke).
 
@JerryCoffin I used to work in finance IT, the mathematicians were almost always employed as quants (Quantitative analyst) in that field.
 
@TelKitty Seems reasonable. Actual finance doesn't involve any math, after all. :-)
 
@JerryCoffin It does - find global maximum and minimum for example.
And lots of statistics.
 
1:17 AM
@TelKitty I thought the irony there was obvious enough I almost left off the smiley, but I guess even that wasn't enough...
 
It's hard to tell irony or sarcasm on the internet - you should have learnt this by now :p
 
@TelKitty The fact that I'm still on SO at all makes it pretty obvious I'm a slow learner. :-)
 
@JerryCoffin You will fit right in with the rest of us here.
BTW, physicists and engineers work are very relevant to every days life if you have paid enough attention. Mathematicians work - not so much so.
 
1:43 AM
hey guys kind of unrelated but does anyone konw what it means if something runs as a service
for example I'm running Grafana as a service right now which allows localhost:3000
to show some badass graphs from db monitoring
can anybody tell me what as a service means in this context
 
 
1 hour later…
2:57 AM
@SamuelWakeman Serve, server, service - a program on the server to serve others enquires.
 
3:53 AM
We’re writing to let you know that the Meetup @ WeWork pilot is coming to an end. We will continue to honor any existing reservations for Meetup events held at WeWork spaces, however beginning today you will no longer be able to make any new reservations.
Oo, WeWork can no longer provide venues for our A.I. in Robotics meetups (or any meetups for that matter). I guess we are just lucky to be able to secure a year of venue booking with Microsoft in their CBD startup hub a month ago.
Also my dad was able to sell his shares in historical high 3 months ago in order to be able to pay for the land intended for the solar farm.
Eventually I would run out of good luck, kitty would go splash. I wonder how far I would be falling then.
Good thing is that kitty has pretty thick skin & I am insensitive to falling. If down to the trough, I will be just crawling my way back up ... I think ...
 
 
4 hours later…
8:10 AM
The problem with servos is that, even if the robot does nothing, it still uses a lot of power. Yesterday I forgot to turn the robot off while having dinner, by the time I was back to my desk, the battery was flat.
 
8:54 AM
@Mikhail How is that me ç_ç
Oh, I get it, I lacked context
 
9:36 AM
huh SE deleted the pronoun FAQ and put up a new one and now I lost my best scoring answer on meta.SE :(
 
nwp
9:52 AM
Rip internet points. Thankfully I find the tragedy of those decisions funny by now instead of being sad. But you can't say it didn't work, lots of upvotes this time. Or maybe they don't count downvotes anymore in an attempt to be nice.
 
well at least I have a valid question about the pronoun rule that should gather a few new magic internet points.
 
nwp
Meh, has been answered before. "You are allowed to forget. But not maliciously."
 
I didn't see that answered in the new faq list. Though I only skimmed it. And this is specifically about being personally corrected and being expected to remember it several days later.
 
nwp
Forgetting pronouns of everyone is fine, forgetting pronouns of trans people only is discrimination. And they went back to allowing not using pronouns, so it's not even a problem in practice.
Too bad they diversify pronouns instead of unifying them.
 
For the past few weeks, meta was like a train wreck of distillers’ grains that attracted a mountain range of swines.
But what do I know?
 
10:28 AM
hi
is anyone good in c?
 
nwp
@SunishaSindhu Ask here and ask your actual question.
 
thanks @nwp
 
11:02 AM
I wonder why many companies still only stick to C++11
 
 
3 hours later…
1:33 PM
@DexterLiu I'd sadly be not that surprised to find out there are more places sticking to pre 11 than 11 onwards
 
1:47 PM
@thecoshman The cargo cult is strong in the C++ and C communities
 
seems a lot weaker than most other programming language communities, there's fiefdoms all over the place that act almost independent of one another.
 
2:01 PM
yep and those contribute to the cargo cult
 
 
1 hour later…
3:11 PM
It's not so much cargo culting as risk aversion
companies are slow to move away from what they know works
hell, they are slow to move away from what they know does not work
 
Honestly... most of the 'risk aversion' I've seen actually creates more risk and is based in cargo cult
 
not sure if I'd call it 'cargo cult', but yeah, risk aversion is ironically risky :D
 
it's def cargo cult.
 
depends on the reasons, if the reason is 'risk aversion' but isn't evaluated constantly then yes it's cargo cult
if the reason is "this version has borked code gen" that's a different issue.
 
3:27 PM
it's kind of a "let hidden bugs lie" mindset. Trying to change as little as possible so that none of the cruft comes back to bite you. Obviously that's a recipe for calcification, but it's the same as with all "updates". The ROI isn't always clear, so doing nothing for most people seems the safest bet
 
^
There is some logic behind it
Like, why take the time and money and risk to update a code base as new version of C++ come out, if you're not really developing it anyway?
There is something to be said for making it easier for if / when you do want to do some actual changes
 
successful companies always break stuff and then fix it, it's when companies become top-heavy with respect to management that they become "risk" averse.
 
I agree, not everything needs updates all the time and I really value Microsofts approach of trying to break as little backwards-compat as possible/reasonable.
 
@PeterT the research actually suggests this isn't true, that early adopters have fewer issues in the long run
 
right, that why I said "it seems", people often don't see "do nothing" as an active decision
 
3:33 PM
moreover the issues they have tend to be solved faster because the teams developing are more apt to pay attention
 
doing nothing -> things break , whoever changed things is at fault
actively change stuff -> things break , you might be made responsible
 
at the same time, not everything is worth adopting.
 
3:54 PM
@DexterLiu The real reason most projects right now stick to this is honestly debian... which last I checked is still using an ancient GCC
 
4:16 PM
It seems unreal to me xD why debian still use an ancient gcc?
So companies work with microsoft more, would more like to use newer c++ standards?
 
@Mgetz ...and Redhat/CentOS. Until about a month ago, CentOS 7 was current, and it shipped with gcc 4.8.5 (which doesn't even support C++11 completely, not to mention anything newer).
@DexterLiu Maybe, but Microsoft's compiler has also been known for relatively poor conformance for quite a while. It's gotten better in the last few years, but depending on what parts you look at, you could make a decent case that it has the poorest conformance of the big 3 compilers.
 
@JerryCoffin until you look at intel... then MS looks really really good. But not very fast
 
@Mgetz Yeah. The sad thing is that there was a time that Intel's compiler was cutting edge, and then they apparently decided not to update the front end (even though they use the EDG front end, so excellent language conformance should only be a matter of updating a license and re-compiling).
 
Really good to know about this!! Now i am confused why the c++ committee has been so rapidly putting out new standards. When it is not so needed?
xD
 
4:33 PM
@DexterLiu Define "needed". If we base things only on the bare minimum absolutely necessary, we'd still be toggling switches on a front panel. Most of the changes to C++ have been substantial, meaningful improvements though.
 
Well people obviously though the time between C++98 and C++11 was too long, so the committee is trying to find a way to not repeat that
 
I think so too. The new features are really good.
 
@PeterT Not just trying--they seem to be succeeding pretty well (in this regard, at least).
 
does anybody know what c++ standard visual studio use as default? I have never really thought about that XD
I guess it is automatically set to the latest
but I never saw any even c++14 features in the code pool in my company..lol
 
@DexterLiu Not exactly. The current default is C++14. docs.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/build/reference/…
 
4:46 PM
interesting !
Thanks
 
Is it true that when doing a load on an atomic variable the std::memory_order argument (relaxed, acquire, release, ...) only affects the surrounding loads/stores, not the load of the variable itself? Or is this only true for read-modify-write operations (fetch_add(), etc...)?
 
@StackedCrooked Depends on the operation and the hardware.
 
@DexterLiu so it's more that due to confusion with ISO they waited waaaaay too long to do C++11
 
I mean from portable C++ point of view.
 
@StackedCrooked yes, the memory order argument does exactly that
usually...
 
4:58 PM
@Mgetz You mean "yes", as in the memory order argument only affects the surrounding loads and stores? Or "yes" as in it's only true for read-modify-write operations?
 
@StackedCrooked yes that in theory it only affects the surrounding loads and stores
then there order_relaxed which is an unholy abomination that even the committee hates
 
I always thought the memory order only affects surrounding loads/stores. However, I recently read about std::shared_ptr::unique becoming deprecated because it's not reliable in multithreaded code because it's a relaxed load.
 
On x86, relaxed, acquire, and release only affect what things can be reordered and what can't be reordered.
 
@StackedCrooked hence order_relaxed being an unholy abomination
 
Are you saying the rules for order_relaxed are different?
 
5:17 PM
That's still consistent with the idea that the memory order only affects the order of the surrounding loads/stores.
 
@StackedCrooked I don't see why they can't fix it by "upgrading" from relaxed to release.
 
That's what I think they should do.
 
Oh, wrong reason. I thought unique was to convert to a unique_ptr or something.
 
@StackedCrooked I would say it affects the ordering of that load relative to that of surrounding operations.
 
Yeah, it's almost useless as is.
Or rather, too easily baits misuse.
 
5:24 PM
@JerryCoffin Yeah. That's what I meant to say.
(But worded badly.)
 
6:03 PM
@andreyrk So that's who stole our mascot!
 
6:21 PM
XD
You guys are basically in both of the c-++ rooms
 
6:36 PM
@DexterLiu I'm an owner on both
 
6:55 PM
That's so cool!!
I want stack exchange to come up with an app with these rooms
They only have a stack exchange app, which will reload everything again after I switched back, only after a short time lol
Not reload, but lost everything and I have to click all the way to the question again
 
7:37 PM
 
8:05 PM
single NUMA domain capable confirmed
 
8:20 PM
@Mgetz Yeah, one node for the entire socket. Impressive.
Though I think in Zen 3, it won't be as uniform since they'll allow adjacent CCX communication without going through the I/O die.
 
@Mysticial not sure it's practical for the 64core with SMT enabled but it's technically doable It looks like? maybe? They didn't list the per core NUMA requirements
@Mysticial based on what's buildzoid has said and others have observed it's uniformly ununiform
 
@Mgetz Zen 2 is uniform because everything has to hit the I/O die. Which means there's room for optimization for things that are right next to each other to no go all the way to the I/O die. Once they exploit that (Zen 3), it won't be uniform anymore.
 
It won't but FCLK will become even more important then than it is in Zen2
basically everything I've read says that FCLK is the key to Zen2 performance and buying ram over DDR4 3800 is kinda a waste
 
Actually shit. I'm not sure if that Zen 3 optimization I mentioned is publicly known yet. I don't know what I know is public and what isn't.
 
the sweet spot seems to be 1:1 FCLK to UCLK with the fastest possible FCLK
want to nuke it?
 
8:25 PM
nah, it's small enough.
 
it's not like people couldn't have figured it out
but honestly memory access in Zen3 will likely be uniformish anyway enough that NUMA really isn't needed
core to core is a different case
but that's the same as core to core inside a CCX as is
 
The line between NUMA and non-NUMA is kinda fuzzy. By definition, any non-uniformity is NUMA. But of course it needs to be big enough for it to be worth exposing it to the OS.
 
8:37 PM
@DexterLiu You mean the mobile app? I believe it's pretty much abandoned--it has a fair number of bugs, quite a few limitations, and and abandoned for years (literally--last updated in 2017).
The mobile web site seems to work better than the app (and if nothing else, it's updated more frequently).
 
AMD has faster cache line ping pong than Intel right? I don't understand why people worry so much about inter-CCX latency
is it only faster within a CCX?
 
@doug65536 only faster within a CCX currently, allegedly Zen3 will be faster inter CCD
and adjacent CCD
 
8:55 PM
@Mgetz It'll be interesting to see how well the real thing holds up to the rumors (but there's certainly been no room to complain for the last couple of years or so).
 
@JerryCoffin yeah. Ok. That explains something. The mobile website looks also cool. But I always prefer an app XD
 
@DexterLiu It wouldn't be so bad if the app had worked well before it was abandoned, but they did a release 1.0 (which was buggy, of course), then did (going from memory here) only a couple minuscule fixes before abandoning it. They've also published an API, but at least when I looked, it was missing a number of crucial capabilities, so you can write your own app, but unless you do some reverse engineering and such, it'll also be severely handicapped.
 
My personal opinion is that the mobile app for SO is a waste of time and a misuse of resources. Because most people use SO when they're at work already on a desktop. Likewise, it's hard to provide quality answers on a phone. IOW, you shouldn't be using SO on a phone anyway.
The case is obviously different for SE in general as there are sites where it is reasonable to expect people to use on a mobile device.
But regardless, the mobile app(s) sucking is probably the least of SE's worries right now.
 
9:31 PM
@Mysticial Oh, no argument here. They have some pretty serious fires to put out first.
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah. If we go by the voting, they've managed to ideologically split their user base into a 1:5 ratio with the majority against the company and an all-out scorched earth total war between the two sides.
 
@Mysticial Yeah--at this point, enough hard feelings have surfaced that healing the rift is going to be drawn out and difficult, even if they really start doing good things (whereas most of what they've done so far as exacerbated the problems).
 
@JerryCoffin They can dig themselves out of it if they start by admitting mistakes. But they can't because either because of ego, or because of legal implications involving Monica.
114
Q: How can we move forward if SE will not admit to wrongdoing for legal reasons?

Peter OlsonAs I understand, one of the major grievances of the community recently over the situation with Monica is that the Stack Exchange team has not apologized for or admitted to any wrongdoing over making public statements that negatively affect Monica's reputation, here on Meta, per-site metas, and al...

But I think thing the whole thing blowing up on Monica is kinda silly since the license-gate seems to have much bigger potential for legal issues.
In one case, it's maybe a libel suit from one person. The other case is a class action of all users.
 
9:49 PM
@Mysticial Hard to compare the two. With Monica, the damages are probably fairly small, but I'd say something like 80% chance that they lose if it goes t court. With licensing, the damages are potentially a lot larger, but I'd guess their chance of losing in court is much lower. In particular, proving damages from it (in monetary terms) is likely to be considerably more difficult.
 
true, maybe an injunction is more likely in the latter case?
I'm imagining one of those really bad visual novel endings where the relationship becomes so bitter that the users get together to threaten a class action.
 
@Mysticial Hmm...maybe. A permanent injunction normally means everybody agrees about the facts of what happened, so the only question(s) involved are legal ones. The judge decides the legal question(s) and, if merited, issues an injunction.
A temporary injunction is similar, except it means there may be a disagreement on the facts, but there's a possibility of severe damages before a hearing can conclude. In this case, the judge basically assumes the facts are as alleged by the party asking for the injunction, considers the legal matters, and likelihood of immediate damage to decide whether to issue the injunction. If memory serves, they are allowed to ignore "facts" so far-fetched that no reasonable jury would agree with them.
I believe either way, however, you still need to be able to enter a case in court, so you need "standing", and that might be difficult in this case.
 
user8104581
 
user8104581
I'm thinking this is where the experiment idea started
 
10:05 PM
Apparently TR4 socket might be dead after all :(
 
@andreyrk I'd prefer if they just did <0 as opposed to zero. Then it's no longer misleading.
 
Or why not have a separate popularity score?
 
user8104581
@Mysticial I very much prefer this to be fair. i.stack.imgur.com/s0m5H.png
 
@andreyrk haha
Might as well go all way and say,
> This question is bad.
> This question is bad and therefore you should feel bad.
> You are bad.
> You suck.
> Your mom sucks.
> Your children sucks.
Or separate vote buttons for users to judge whether the OP properly used pronouns.
 
user8104581
@Mysticial Don't give them the idea haha
 
10:18 PM
So you have 3 sets of voting buttons on every post and comment:
1. Useful or not useful.
2. Like or dislike.
3. Correct or incorrect use of pronouns.
Likewise we need additional tabs to sort answers based on the new voting categories.
 
@Mysticial Why not just render a POO, PILE OF?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Because it's not welcoming enough?
maybe
 
Why does anyone even care? I've seen correct downvoted question/answers there's a reason the reversal badge existed
plus, if the question is so bad, it should get closed/flagged as inappropriate in some way.
It's not even clear why there's a downvote button at all when you think about it
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I think they're hiding from the wrong people. They should hide the vote count from the OP and not the voters. Because it's usually the OP that whines about it and sees it as "unwelcoming".
 
Why downvote a question anyway? if there are proper tools to flag/remove bad questions.
 
user8104581
10:26 PM
@Mysticial That's a double-edged sword, wouldn't be long before they started logging off their account to see the actual vote count. Their self-security might get a hit :-)
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix It tells other uses to not waste their time. It also knocks it off the front page and feeds the roomba.
 
user8104581
Also discourages improper behavior, some sort of punishment is arguably essential to the way societies work. Can't make boundaries on what is right or wrong without it
 
@andreyrk The idea here is that vampires can't be fixed. So just get rid of them quietly as possible. Because anything other than feeding the vampire will be unwelcoming and lead to negativity.
 
@Mysticial of course but without downvotes, it would motivate people to vote up questions and flag the bad ones. They'd get knocked off anyway, as it would work a bit differently
 
user8104581
@Mysticial I think many people just need a little push to get on track
 
10:30 PM
@andreyrk one could say if they disconnect to see how bad their score is not come back, it's a problem solved situation.
 
@andreyrk That push will need to be in the form of positive reinforcement. Downvotes are negative to anyone who isn't familiar to the site.
 
that's my point
remove downvote and force everyone to change the way bad questions are handled
right now, people will just sink the thing to hell and move on on their day, while the little new guy is crying in his corner
 
So you keep the downvotes from the OP, but it's still there for all the "reviewers" to judge. If anybody wants to try to help the OP either by answering or a positive nudge as a comment, they can.
 
user8104581
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I concur, still having a scoring system while not having downvoting might work IMO, kind of like how comments work
 
yes, then handling bad question would be done through flagging so if the question is so bad it would give proper attention to the OP and clear the frontpage until action is done
 
user8104581
10:34 PM
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Also seems to me could make unpopular opinions considerable at least a little, instead of just skimming due to downvote bias
 
yes I find it a bit ironic that SO became a "no opinion" question board while having people biased on downvote/upvote based on opinion
It's like you can't ask a question that can have an answer based on opinion, but you can have an opinion on the question itself. I'd downvote all question tagged with php because php suck
 
lol true that!
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I was gonna say that the whole pronoun thing is already opinionated, but clearly saying that would get be branded a facist far-right bigot by the left and an SJW by the right since both sides consider their positions to be facts and not opinions.
 
user8104581
@Mysticial We live in a tribaciety
 
> both sides consider their positions to be facts and not opinions.
Facts shouldn't be biased, so if you have a point of view on some fact, it's an opinion.
 
10:48 PM
@andreyrk New 10K privilege: ability to see actual vote counts on your posts.
 
Yay, soon I'll be in the 10k club !
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix If only belonging to the 401K club meant I had enough money to retire...
 
Turn your rep in money
if you can sell 1 rep at 1$, that's literally ~400,000$!
 
@Mysticial I think it's more that both sides believe their positions are supported by facts. And honestly, to some extent that's probably true. The question is which facts you consider more important.
 
also that developers are probably well known to be over confident on what people really need
 
10:55 PM
Of course, some have also opined that the standard measure of arrogance should be the nanodijkstra.
 
11:22 PM
@JerryCoffin I endorsed my vote to you and you're telling that the evaluation of facts is unclear?
@JerryCoffin To me this is more of a measurement truth than an opinion, the pico might produce more easily read values though.
 
@CaptainGiraffe Could be. Or perhaps Dijkstra constituted one mole of arrogance...
 
@JerryCoffin Ah, the arrogance atom, at position 1337 in our beloved table =) Fortunately quite unstable. Outside computer science they only saw it once at CERN. That guy has a bad headache now.
Also why is the lounges title "The Lounge is not a parrot!" when it quite clearly is?
 
@CaptainGiraffe Because although parrots may not lie, they certainly don't always tell the truth.
 
@JerryCoffin That's deep man. That's deep.
 
@CaptainGiraffe If it's really that deep, maybe you need to feed the parrot less often (or clean the cage a little more often).
 
11:35 PM
When I was about 13 I wrote my first aphorism; - At least the crazy guy doesn't go mad.
Solid stuff.
@JerryCoffin The cage is hard to clean because it is supposed to be self-contained.
 
@CaptainGiraffe "crazy guy"? That sounds very unwelcoming. Demanding that others experience the same reality you do shows you are a patriarchal colonialist.
For that matter, demanding that others experience reality at all is undoubtedly evil and narrow-minded.
 
@JerryCoffin But very helpful to the person designing user interface!
 
I wonder if you would still consider someone as 'crazy', if the person proves self to be much more intellectually superior and people around are the mentally retarded ones by comparison.
 
@JerryCoffin patriarchal colonialist. YES. I love my dad, he is still alive. Mom hi! I love you too. Colonialist, sure, I have a big enough apartment.
 
@TelKitty Are you trying to treat sanity and intelligence as the same (or even related)?
@CaptainGiraffe Ah, I'd been meaning to ask about whether you had room for me to stop by for a few weeks of drunken debauchery, but I guess I don't have to ask...
 
11:46 PM
Drunken debauchery all the way
 
:47663101 The kids would probably be bored, not being allowed to participate in either drunkenness or debauchery.
 
@JerryCoffin Modesty, propriety, and a cup of tea then it is.
 
@CaptainGiraffe I'm not sure that justifies the trip. Maybe I send the wife and kids somewhere proper, and "accidentally" get lost on the way there...
 
@JerryCoffin Neat, I'll PM you the "itinerary". We'd start with a traditional journey! You ever had fermented herring?
 
@CaptainGiraffe Like Sourstromming? (sp?)
 
11:54 PM
@JerryCoffin Yes, exactly like surströmming
 
@CaptainGiraffe Yes, I've had it. I prefer it over lutefisk (a weak compliment if ever there was one).
 
@JerryCoffin Don't care much about the lutefisk. The goal there seems to get your lips numb from allspice.
 

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