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-92
A: Moderator Resignation Notice

Sara ChippsWe’re sorry to see you go. We understand there are some folks upset about the decision made this week. We aren’t going to share specifics out of respect for all individuals involved but this is a site reaching millions of people and we have to do what we believe fosters a spirit of inclusion an...

-92 o.O
I hadnt seen that the first time I looked at it
I would assume change in the management starting from the top.
00:44
Anyways, I think I have an excellent solution in regards to duplicate question >_<
Can we, like, group duplicate together and showing them as a group, indexed by time. Current question and answers will be highlighted, answers from similar questions can be shown as 'approximates' down the bottom.
01:31
@Mikhail well you can set that up in the projects themselves?
02:21
@Mgetz So, the #defines control several items. For example, the #define selects the camera, stage, incubation equipment. I can't have a target for every combination.
@Borgleader This has become so regular now that it's almost funny. I can't tell if she's the one pulling the strings or if she's just the paid punching bag (or some combination of both). It's no secret that SE employees dread posting on meta. If Sara is the only one with thick enough skin to do it, then it makes sense she is the spokesperson.
2
-113 ... oh god its getting worse
@Mysticial It's also a bit insulting to get a canned responso like that
I mean... I don''t expect anything else but stil
@Mysticial It would be interesting if they got a guy to post something similar to what she said. Just as a psychological experiment to see who gets punched more.
Starred the msg to show the true nature of things (the person just wants to watch the world burn). Unfortunately it's not just him, a lot of people are like him when the said thing is not so related to them.
This world is neither good, nor bad. The world is what it is - consisting of causes and effects that have existed hundreds if not tens of thousands of years (or more). Just because you were not aware of them does not make this world any better or worse.
Also why is the moon program called Apollo mission, isn't Apollo the god of sun?
SO messed up by hiring people who have nothing better to do then destroy their community. They fell into a predictable trap.
02:36
@TelKitty I wish I can hear all the background politics, people convincing other people to join one side or the other.
Of course, I'm on @Mikhail side.
@Rick You can post a question in the name of demanding transparency :p
Doing nothing at all, for these rather petty squabbles would have been better.
But I agree, this site has become less and less transparent as years go by.
If still no IPO in a couple of years, what happened recently would become a train wreck looking back.
There is not going to be an IPO for a while.
I am not on any side, since I don't know exactly what have happened. Never jump into conclusion before you know the whole truth is one thing I have learned in life.
02:41
I would say it is best to trigger small upheavals, so they don't culminate into large shocks the system can't handle.
@Rick The central processing doesn't deal so much with priority as routing. So I get some data in from a source, put it into a packet, then plop it into a queue. A (more or less) separate processor looks at the packaging to see what sort of data is is, and who wants that sort of data and sends it to them. They then (typically) look at the contents and do things with it. Vaguely like a specialized publish/subscribe system.
@JerryCoffin by why does it need to be a multi-producer lock-free to do that.
It just seems like it's doing a lot
I am assuming it's lock-free because a lot of threads are operating on it at that same time
03:03
@Mgetz So it failed even at completely stock settings. (2133 - no XMP) memtested it and failed after a couple hours with multiple errors on a single bit (flipping from 0 to 1). After memtesting different configurations the whole weekend, I've isolated it down to a pair of stick (which I can then RMA together).
The bit the flipped 0 to 1 is always on the same physical address, but it doesn't consistently flip. So it's not a "stuck-at" fault. And the same two sticks passed fine on my X299 machine.
The are slight differences in the timings which I'm tinkering with now. (2T on the X299 and 1T on the B350)
But 80% chance says I'm gonna RMA that pair since there's no way there can be a single weak physical bit unless there's something wrong with the stick itself.
I think I am confusing lock-free with wait-free. lock-free prevents stalling, so other useful work can still be done. In wait-free algorithms, no computation can be prevented by another. I just fund the definition lock-free concurrency concerning a queue strange it almost seems to contradict itself.
if something has to wait and prevents other tasks from preforming the same operation, but can still perform other operations seems counter-intuitive.
@Rick It doesn't have to be (and isn't) lock free. Strictly spealing it wouldn't really have to use queues at all- but they make it easy to keep each piece simple and isolated.
03:23
@JerryCoffin This is what I am reading: github.com/cameron314/concurrentqueue
and trying to make sense of
 
8 hours later…
11:29
@Mikhail No you can have a project that knows how to copy for each target and just does so
11:41
@Borgleader -196 and drowning
@Mgetz yeah, I'm not sure how best to do that.
@Mikhail set up a project with a target and then do a couple of xcopyies?
@Mysticial that sucks but at least you caught it
 
4 hours later…
15:47
@Mgetz Actually I got two different sticks (tested in isolation) to fail on the same DIMM slot. So maybe it's not that simple.
I'll have to test the other pair this week.
@Mysticial which board and what memory topology?
I ask because AMD favors Daisy chain pretty hard. It's possible a T topology board could be causing issues.
16:10
@Mgetz Gigabyte AB350m Gaming 3.
Currently testing the other stick that's failing to see if it consistently fails on the same address and bit.
But the two sticks are failing on different addresses.
But the stick that failed multiple times consistently failed on the same address with a 0 -> 1 bit flip.
The Asrock board that I'm going to get will be T topology.
@Mysticial expect crap mem speeds then and it looks like the board you have is T topo too
which is not good for AMD
yeah in theory T-topo should be better for four dimm configs, but AMD seems to just treat it like it's not a thing
so it is likely struggling to get good timings on it
@Mgetz None of that should matter at stock speeds. I'm just checking to see if the memory is defective.
@Mysticial stock being DDR4 stock or XMP stock?
DDR4 stock 2133
because even at DDR4 stock that board will likely struggle with those DIMMs
16:23
I'll probably try all 4 sticks in an X299 with an extended memtest.
16:43
@Borgleader -369 o.O
@Borgleader Definitely the largest of the shitstorms in the current era.
Also probably a lightning rod for a host of different but related issues
I wish I could see the full context of the current one. But the various pieces of this here and there kinda already paint a picture of it.
21
Q: A very recent post asking people to go "on strike" was just deleted

John OmielanI was just reading a new post suggesting members go "on strike", i.e., stop moderation and similar type duties, for some period of time to get the attention of the SE staff. It was only on the site for a few minutes, and I was just about finished reading it, when it was deleted. I assume the OP d...

that's a thing now
17:33
@Mgetz To be fair, that one is pushing it a bit.
@Mgetz Not exactly a big surprise. In fact, I'm almost surprised that nobody seems to have advocated boycotting SE in general yet. There is probably one good point though: with Rome burning, they're unlikely to waste time on us.
@JerryCoffin we'll see
@Mgetz Yeah. The other side of it is, that if something should arise that somebody feels really needs to be dealt with, they probably won't have time to try to sort out the details--could easily lead to a "shoot them all, and let God sort it out" sort of mentality.
@JerryCoffin not going to go into detail that have been allegedly leaked but that seems to the case thus far. Right now I'm not assuming too much but the whole thing stinks.
@Mgetz Me being me, I'm tempted to flag my own post, just to see what happens. After all, "shoot them all, and let God sort it out" could certainly be seen as offensive to/by some... :-)
17:39
I'm sure there's a ton of people who have valuable thoughts and things to say. But not many are speaking up because we're at the point where it wouldn't be below SE to start "taking action" against people/accounts for disparagement.
@Mysticial Not to mention, if even a fraction of what's being claimed has any relationship to truth at all, it seems unlikely that speaking out will accomplish anything anyway.
@Mysticial They don't care Meta is dead anyway
17:53
There are two lines I'm watching closely to see if and when SE will cross them:
1. Elimination of freedom of speech.
2. Intentional misinformation (fake news).
@Mysticial If what Monica was claiming was true, they've basically already crossed that line. I'll admit that's not proven based on public knowledge, but I think the number of other moderators resigning gives a decent indication that it's probably at least largely accurate.
@JerryCoffin Both lines? Or just #1?
Oh my--and the flags message says that Tim Post has just frozen the Meta Room.
@JerryCoffin Yeah, saw that.
18:02
@Mysticial Just #1 at this point. The only "response" I've seen so far has contained little enough information it doesn't qualify as news of any sort--real, fake, fantasy, or anything else.
...and now people are (somewhat understandably) offended at its being frozen.
9
Q: Why was the meta room frozen?

opaLooks like the meta room was frozen by Tim Post. AFAIU the meta room is supposed to be the place for extended discussion here on meta that would otherwise fill answers and questions. Won't this just spill into normal meta now? Looking at the past comments (though not terribly closely) it doesn't...

@Mysticial Hmm...gasoline wasn't putting out the fire? Here, let me see if this rocket fuel will do a better job...
@JerryCoffin I think if you pour enough gasoline on it at once that it blocks out all the oxygen it will.
@Mysticial well technically explosives works... but unless it's an oil well it's usually not the best choice in a highly populated environment
18:12
@Mysticial Undoubtedly true (a bit like the explosions they use to put out oil well fires).
Damn. Beaten to it due to my slowing typing again. I'm definitely a loser when it comes to FGITW...
@JerryCoffin to be fair it's how they put out the great fire of london IIRC (also with hooks to pull down buildings)
@Mikhail Looks like it's probably quite a bit quicker than getting explosives in place.
@Mikhail I recall that, it doesn't actually put it out in most cases though. But it will sap enough energy just from atomization in most cases. IIRC someone did something recently that was quite similar but used a smaller high bypass system to do the atomization to decrease loss to the heat of the exhaust
"Here honey, time to blow out the (giant) birthday candles!"
 
2 hours later…
20:48
...and now people are actively asking about the legalities of taking SE content, and creating a new site with it.
17
Q: Can one take the entire Q&A base and move it to a new site?

Patrick HofmanIn the light of all recent moderators and experienced users quitting, I was wondering if anyone is allowed to take the entire Q&A set of a site, and move it to a new site, with new rules? I think you can, as long as you follow the attribution rules mentioned in the CC license, and you don't copy...

Looks like we have another POV here:
2
A: Firing mods and forced relicensing: is Stack Exchange still interested in cooperating with the community?

Yvette ColombNot an answer, but clearly a necessity, as someone tried to edit me into this list on the question. I stepped down as a moderator before all these events. I stepped down because I'm tired. Ironic, as I've spent more time on here since all this broke out than I did when I was moderating. I suppo...

@Mysticial Seems to be a bit more than just a different point of view. One is saying that there were only questions asked to try to get clarification of the new CoC, while the other is saying that there was flat-out refusal to comply with it. Without seeing the actual discussion (which we probably never will) it's not obvious which is correct, but it seems pretty clear to me that the difference goes beyond mere differences in point of view.
@JerryCoffin From the random and pieces of things I've seen here and there, the (potentially highly distorted) picture that I have right now is:
The "stance" is about gendered pronouns. And that the change in the CoC is to require that everybody refer to people by their preferred pronoun. Furthermore moderators are required to enforce it. This didn't sit well with some of the moderators (such as Monica), which then led to the disagreement leading to the current shitstorm.
Many of the current resignations aren't directly a result of this episode, but rather this was the final nail in the coffin for a number of things that has been building up.
21:03
@Mysticial That certainly seems to fit with what @Caleb said.
@Mysticial I'd have to say that's almost certainly true--as we've noted repeatedly here, things have been going downhill (and pretty quickly at that) for some time, and moderators constantly deal with the worst of it.
So, if this thing falls apart, where would the new lounge be?
Frankly, I'm a bit surprised there haven't been more moderator resignations sooner (but from what Yvette said, maybe there were more and I just didn't notice).
@Rick Quite a bit of the Lounge migrated to Discord quite some time ago (before you came along, I believe).
So where the heck are you guys
@Rick I spend more time here, but now and again, I hang out on Lounge<C++> on Discord as well. There are a few people who've never migrated there, and I'd miss them if I didn't come here. I wouldn't bet on SO shutting down entirely very soon though. If worse came to worst, I'd guess somebody would buy it, and it'd continue on in some form. It's a valuable enough property it's unlikely to just disappear.
Cool, so I am already in the right place just in case
21:14
@JerryCoffin The thing that strike me here is that if both sizes feel strongly that they are right. So if they feel they are right, why doesn't each side post the full story so that others can agree with them? Or perhaps both sides feel that their position isn't popular and is afraid of backlash.
maybe legal reasons
Obviously taking any stance on anything LGBTQ is going to piss off a lot of people no matter what.
@Mysticial At a guess, the moderators have probably already agreed that discussions in the mod-only chat can't be copied/pasted/etc. elsewhere.
@Mysticial Certainly doesn't piss me off. I sexually identify as an "infallible genius", and I'm told nobody's allowed to dispute or denigrate any part of my sexual identity, which I think is pretty cool.
2
infallible genius is a sexual orientation
@JerryCoffin SE can disclose whatever they want since they make the rules. So if SE feels that they are in the right, they can silence a lot of the noise by revealing what happened and they fired Monica because she wasn't "progressive enough". Though it's been only a couple days and according to George Stocker, SE will release a public statement soon. So we'll wait for that.
21:26
how does sexual orientation become part of the conversation on SE. Isn't SE a group of technical sites
@Mysticial SE may be able to disclose it. On the other hand, if she said something with a "reasonable expectation of privacy", then they may not be able to. Exactly what qualifies as a reasonable expectation of privacy is mostly up to the court(s) to decide.
I thought all of this was community-driven
@Rick That's exactly my thought. Full disclosure, I'm left on the social spectrum. But this whole shitstorm (on a technical no-politics site) coming down to something like this is basically, WTF. REALLY!?!?! Come on...
I don't know any of these details around the controversy, but I assume the rules are outlined somewhere. If someone breaks that rule, then members in that community take action. Based on Hierarchy. But maybe I am being nieve about how the system actually works.
@Rick First of all, SE does include some sites that are more socially oriented than technical (e.g., devoted to things like religion, politics, etc.) But even here in the Lounge, there's (at least theoretically) room for problems. What would happen if I referred to you as "he", and you said you wanted to be referred to as "xhe" instead? Apparently the new CoC requires not only that all do so, but (the part that apparently raised the problem) that moderators enforce doing so.
21:34
@JerryCoffin you mean I have a feminine sounding name, but I still want to be referred to as "he" or something along those lines?
And at least as Monica claimed things stated, from then on I'd have to use xhe--I couldn't (for example) rephrase things to refer to you as "@Rick" instead.
@Rick Right. Personally, I think it's a little like proving all your code correct. In theory, the idea's nice--but in practice, demanding that everybody keep track of which pronoun to use for which people is pretty onerous. There are few enough Loungers we probably could now, but in its heyday, I'd have simply quit--I simply couldn't have done it.
that seems rather problematic, feminine masculine is embedded in the language and culture. Maybe this is a way of introducing new terminology to describe something people don't use in everyday language.
@Rick Some of it certainly involves new terminology (such as the aforementioned "xhe"). Some of it involves phrasing many of us were once taught was improper grammatically (like using "they" instead of "he" or "she" when referring to one person).
@Rick It is. I actively need to keep track of all the exceptions and even then, I still screw up by habit. Not saying I shouldn't keep doing it, but it's very prone to error given that it's ingrained into the language.
I hear in Norway or maybe Finnland they are introducing new gender terms. But this really concerns official language, not common day conversation we have.
And it's only important if a member of that community lets people know. So for example context is important. If someone who is a regular tells us they are such and such. I think most people would respect it
Because they have skin in the game. Skin being they are invested in that community.
user8104581
21:48
I'm pretty sure I've lived all my life without ever wondering about this topic until this year
@Rick The thing is that is everybody is going to mentally assign a gender based on name and avatar. So a trans person who has both set to their gender of choice should have zero problems online since nobody will even know. It's only when it's ambiguous does the person need to clarify.
@Rick In fact, we have a regular in the Lounge who doesn't fit a nice, neat binary gender identity--and as far as I know, just about everybody here has been respectful and considerate. But at the same time, I'm pretty sure if somebody used a gendered pronoun, it wouldn't lead to any anger or acrimony either.
user8104581
Change for the sake of change
@Mysticial labels mean different things to different people, and a lack of familiarity can make things seem like a threat. However, that should not be important here. If someone is such and such, the only thing that should matter is, knowledge, commitment, skill, talent, and ability. Some weird aspect can make people talented in other areas and see problems and solutions where others cannot.
@Mysticial A trans person who (for example) simply identifies as female, and uses a female name and avatar isn't likely to lead to problems. Problems mostly arise if/when they demand a pronoun specifically for something like "physically male but identify as female", rather than just "female". Personally, I think that's a little like my demanding that people refer to me in a way that identifies (for example) both my current weight, and the weight I wish I was instead, but maybe that's just me...
22:00
However, this is a hard thing to decipher sometimes. Sometimes talented people can do things that violate the values of society.
A good example of that would be the guys who developed Android at google
Andy Rubin
he got a 90 million payout. A company will usually give you 10% of what you produce for the company as a general rule.
@Rick ...or Hans Reiser
Values are long term strategy and profits are a short term thing.
Anyone can break the rules to win, it's single-minded objectives that prevent you from seeing the black-swan events that eventually cripple you. You have a million bucks but can't go out to a restaurant because people despise. World is a strange place
22:19
@JerryCoffin Wait. I honestly didn't know that.
Mar 26 '13 at 18:06, by Code-Guru
Wait! so is Cicada a girl or a boy?
@Mysticial Pretty sure it's fairly uncommon. I dunno--maybe (at least currently) just a California thing, for all I really know (I've encountered in real life more than online).
@JerryCoffin I had to google this. I've never heard of all these trans pronouns.
Maybe that's what I get for living away from California for so many years?
@Mysticial Be me, sitting in a conference room with some people. We go around the table saying our preferred pronouns, all the pronouns match. Reminded me of saying grace before a meal.
The perpetual shit storm on meta is amusing because they could have done nothing and had no problems. SO, like much of the software community is more inclusive than almost any place. Should have been the world's easiest job, just go to work and play WoW all day.
@JerryCoffin I don't encounter it. I witness weird shit but never encountered it personally. However, I stay away from things that are outside my comfort zone.
23:08
Also I just learned Asians are apparently people of color
Why the fuck do black people support the Democrats again? :-)
I’m a gay, POC, self-taught developer, and making programming knowledge more accessible to people from all walks of life is a way of giving back for me.
@Mikhail you are just learning this?
Yes, I (almost) have a PhD optics and work almost exclusively with Asian people. If anybody can tell colors apart its me.
I just asked a few people in our lab if they identify as POC and none of them do. This includes a 3rd generation American Asian undergrad.
The problem is that one group is historically underrepresented, and the other group is historically over represented. For example, Asians have a harder time getting into schools and are ineligible for financial aid designated for historically under represented group.
I think I've spent too long in the Midwest, but at least now I have a few more POC friends :-)
23:23
@Mikhail For those who honestly want to test themselves...
Note: at least for me, results depend heavily on monitor quality. On a laptop, it basically says I'm almost color blind. On my calibrated monitors at home, I can get a perfect score every time.
23:54
Lol

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