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12:25 AM
@Mysticial Oh he is more than salty. He is briny. :-)
 
 
2 hours later…
2:17 AM
@wilx About 3/4 of them are able to implement the hash table. Among those, about half are able to do it with the thread safety reqs.
I have the feeling that the candidates that I get are already heavily filtered before they get to me. I don’t see a lot of shitty candidates. But I hear about it a lot from my colleagues.
 
What are the thread safety requirements? Lockless?
 
2:34 AM
@Mikhail Can’t say since that’ll just let people game it.
 
Has knowledge of lock-free programing gone up over the last decade?
 
Don’t know. But a non-negligible portion of the candidates I interview are fairly well-versed in it.
 
Its something I've never used, outside of preparing for job interviews. The closest thing was writing my own locks in CUDA (which was trivial).
So, do the engineers you interview learn this material from their previous jobs, or self study?
 
2:54 AM
From previous interviews or online interview preparation website probably.
 
@Mikhail Previous jobs. It’s very easy to tell if someone is actually versed in it or only learned it for an interview.
 
Are they all fintech or is lockfree programing used somewhere else? (Maybe networking?)
 
Search engines would use them too I assume.
 
@Mikhail These are for direct hire full-time positions. The bar is lower for fresh grads as they’re they go into a separate track. But the job isn’t guaranteed. It’s more like a super-extended internship.
I don’t think we’ve ever hired a software dev straight out of school.
 
@Mikhail Actually it's probably used when speed requirement is prioritized over accuracy.
 
3:05 AM
You didn't quite answer the question, specifically do people do lock-free programing outside of fintech? How did you learn lock-free?
 
Many 'top talents' hired to solve a 1 dimension problem - $ can only go up or down. Algo trading, spin the simplest maths concept into most complicated ones since the 20th century! -Telkitty
 
3:42 AM
@Mikhail I don’t know. I learned it at my previous job and got good at it on my current among my personal stuff.
 
3:57 AM
Fuck, I've gone too far, I'll never get a job using std::mutex :-)
Also one of our machine learning DCNN keeps overfitting, somehow I don't think synthetic data augmentation will help. I'll cite one Mikhail Belkin's paper on the interpolation regime to explain why.
 
 
4:20 AM
@Mikhail Don't worry, 90% of programming jobs are "How do I get the data from the database to the UI and back? And how do I make sure I don't have to rewrite every year?"
And interviewing fot these jobs typically doesn't require you to implement hash tables.
@Mysticial Does lockfree simply mean compare-and-swap?
 
Well, most of the jobs I applied to were pretty good, and they did require that stuff, and I got a few of them. Personally, I'm probably going to go entrepreneurship or medical image processing, as faculty jobs are requiring past a 800 citations (these days, for men in my field).
 
Lock- free data structures seems like something you would use for mapping a maze or constructing one. So I would think you would encounter them in games or any big data organization
 
Yeah I know, I read those when I was a kid and they helped a lot.
 
4:36 AM
@Rick Are the majority of games multi-threaded these days?
 
1) Instead of lock free, just go single threaded (or task parallel), or use mutexes 2) wtf is a big data organization? Some failed SQL business like Palantir?
 
Any game that's graphic intensive and has a dynamic immersive environment
 
Not sure about that, I suspect there are more opportunities for task parallelism than available cores
 
@Mikhail companies that implement stock market trading algorithms, NSA, Google, Facebook, Alibaba. Anywhere they scrape the web or any large dataset in real time or as fast as possible.
 
Meh, we used hadoop
 
4:49 AM
@fredoverflow There's several different definitions of "lock free".
The class definition is just no mutexs - so it includes cmpxchg. But there are lockless things that don't even need that.
cmpxchg is still an expensive instruction as it still needs to lock the cache line with respect to the cache coherency.
 
@Mysticial Yeah, like java.lang.String.hashCode which uses a lockfree int for caching purposes. Because it doesn't matter if multiple threads "interfer" with each other, they're all going to compute the same result, anyway.
 
public int hashCode(){
return (int)(Math.random() * 1000000000);
}
 
hash codes must be deterministic → no hire
 
5:04 AM
When you think about, it's irony - computer science is all about getting every bit right, being 100% correct, but the fields where the people who use it and get paid top salaries are the ones that doesn't need 100% accuracy. Trading - statistically, you only need to get it right 60%-70% of the times in order to make money and in search engines, well, you just have to be better than the rest. As long as you return top 30 out of 1000+ relevant results, you could be possibly fine.
 
if only there was an extra zero, then it would be integer overflow
 
@Mikhail The Java compiler doesn't allow integer literals beyond the limits.
 
We hire top talent to get it probably mostly right!
 
Shooting your self in the foot: repl.it/repls/ReflectingAlphanumericModels
 
"We are now hiring low accuracy software engineers, code must work fast!"
I need to stop speaking the truth and get back to work.
 
5:40 AM
@TelKitty how can software even work when it's not accurate.
 
5:52 AM
@Rick Accuracy is not referred to the code itself, but the results the program produces.
For example, in high frequency trading the program might be to decide whether to act on an order and execute a trade. The aim of the program is to make an profit on those trades. The reality is that a certain percentage of the trades produced by the program would be losing money.
So in a way, the programmer is indirectly 'guilty'. Not as the mastermind, but as the henchman.
 
If by losing money you mean, not talking risky decisions. Algorithmic trading capitalizes on speed and strategy. I don't think any single software engineer can take on that kind of responsibility, unless they are a genius. In which case they shouldn't be working for anyone to begin with.
 
 
4 hours later…
10:08 AM
@TelKitty wrong, computer science is about publishing, like most of Academia x)
Getting things right is only comes second
 
10:19 AM
There is a proposal to deprecate _Noreturn in C2x :o
 
 
2 hours later…
11:59 AM
I'll deprecate you
 
What is my replacement?
You don't deprecate without replacing
I could deprecate my testosterone because there was an estrogen replacement
 
12:26 PM
@Morwenn and yet the committee has done this ruthlessly to all the unicode support the standard had..
 
Kind of funny. If msvc doesn't implement a standard feature they get hounded until it's implemented. If gcc and clang don't implement it, then it just gets removed a few versions later
 
tbf all I really want is a u8_to_platform and platform_to_u8 methods
@PeterT clang has massive influence, gcc's is massive too
 
@Mgetz because it was totally broken x)
wait, I am too
They don't plan to remove it until there's a replacement anyway
 
12:41 PM
@Morwenn how so?
it worked
 
Let's say that it was widely considered to be poor design and not worth pursuing
It will still be there until there's a proper replacement v0v
 
@Morwenn not disagreeing, just it feels very hostile to deprecate things before there are replacements in the standard
 
@Mgetz It's not hostile, it's just a commitment to not spending more time on their design
<strstream> was deprecated in C++98 and is still there
And the committee voted to not mark those features as [[deprecated]] so it isn't really annoying either
 
@Morwenn so MSVC removes it from the active API set unless you use a "I want to use horrible functionality" flag
so yes... it's hostile
 
It's an issue with your compiler vendor, not with the standard
The standard still requires <strstream> to be present for standard conformance
 
 
3 hours later…
3:57 PM
@Rick A bit like our brain works, imagine a software that can eyeball the result of some operation. Say x * y is somewhere close to z.
The result isn't accurate but can be quite close to what's expected.
You could make a sort alogirthm that sort complicated data structure very quickly without ensuring that the list is completely sorted but can give margin that 90% of the element are sorted
if the sort order isn't strictly important
 
or a hash-table where almost every element is accessible in 1 or 2 pointer hops
 
4:11 PM
I'm always amused by the fact that hash tables in theory are one thing, and in reality they can be an absolute performance nightmare if they don't handle the cache correctly.
 
4:33 PM
Or how a binary tree looks like a good datastructure until you realize that your tree is always in the worst case scenario shape
 
people forget that even O(1) time can be worse in some cases than O(n^2) if the constant is big enough or n is small enough
 
care to explain how O(1) could be worse than O(n²) for n > 1?
 
so in Big O the constants out front of the runtime are removed. If the constant for O(1) is massive... and the constant in front of O(n^2) is small or 1 then for smaller values of n it can dominate
lets say the constant is say... 72... then until n is 8 n^2 could be faster if the constant on the n^2 is 1
 
sometimes O(1) can be amortized and implementation matters, for example, if you are using pointers. If n is small, sometimes a sort can be faster nlogn than a O(1) "hash" if you are using a library and you don't know how that "hash table" is implemented and what that O(1) is actually based on.
 
an odd example of this is that insertion sort can be faster than quick sort even for large datasets if the dataset is mostly sorted
which is why most people just use merge sort or variants because they are stable
 
4:56 PM
another example is merge sort, because it uses a data structure that is inherently slower, do to the data structure used in the merging and the physical limits in the material physics of the chips. In this way, It turns out to be slower than the theoretical time complexity would state.
 
Ah okay, if we're using unspecified constant the algo will still be faster but in different usecase it would could behave differently if you can't just swap the algorithm. In the case of insertion sort, it makes sense if you can keep the structure mostly sorted.
@Rick quicksort would be cool with unlimited amount of cpus
 
Yeah, Big O is theory, the constant is reality.... and can be very system specific
 
5:57 PM
@Mgetz ...which is why most implementations of quicksort switch to using insertion sort once the partition gets smaller than some preset size, of course.
 
@JerryCoffin shh, you're letting out the hidden secrets!
 
6:13 PM
@Mgetz Oh damn! For any others looking on: please ignore my previous post. It's actually a complete lie!
Just to make the situation completely clear: I voted for Trump, so you can trust that everything I say is a lie.
 
Don't tell anyone BubbleSort is actually the most effective sorting alogrithm
 
@JerryCoffin is the California Conservative Removal squad on your doorstep now?
 
btw, I crossed the border last week between the US and Canada, it wasn't as bad as I expected
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix you only got fisted once and they used lube?
 
We had to wait 1h30 until I could reenter Canada with my wife
she's now officially an immigrant
 
6:20 PM
@Mgetz They're still trying to sort out the conundrum: "he said he voted for Trump, but if so it's a lie, so he couldn't have voted for Trump, but in that case it's the truth, so he actually did vote for Trump, but ..."
 
but we got lucky border agent in the US were kind and it just took around 1h30 before they allowed us to return to Canada.
 
@JerryCoffin just give them a tree to hug, it'll sort itself out
 
One of the funny question we were asked was "Do you fear to get sent back to Canada"
 
I may be reasonably liberal.. but some of the crap from both sides is just garbage
2
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Harper's canada was a scary place
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix "Yes, I find politeness threatening."
 
6:23 PM
My wife was scared she'd get imprisoned for crossing the border without a visa to the US
Nobody even asked to see our phones, but may be that's just because we didn't really intended to enter the US
 
6:42 PM
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Interestingly enough, under just the right (admittedly, now unusual) circumstances, it really is.
Not only is it the most effective known, but under those circumstances it's within a constant factor of the most effective possible.
 
7:08 PM
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix was she worried she would get deported back to Canada or go to prison Because neither case seems very likely to actually happen.
 
7:46 PM
She wasn't worried to get deported to Canada. But being Russian entering US border without visa isn't a good mix.
I heard a few months ago, a French citizen accidentally crossed the border between US and Canada without documents on herself. She got arrested and put in a cell for 2 weeks before she could actually contact anyone who could confirm her identity
As we entered the border through border agents, we only had to have some paper work filled so they could send us back to Canada. Things would be different if we crossed the border somewhere else thought
But knowing how border agent fingering and such Canadian citizen there is a bit to be scared off sometimes
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I don't really think of Canada as a separate country even though it is. The border seems more like a formality than substantive. I really wish they would remove the border altogether. I would like to be able to drive up to the arctic in the summer without a passport or needing to take a boat/plane.
I like road trips.
 
Except it's not as simple as that, if people were just traveling for tourism there wouldn't be any issue. Otherwise Canada would get filled up by illegal immigrant from the US.
 
8:01 PM
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I can guarantee there was more to that story. Customs doesn't just do that arbitrarily. Usually there is something fishy going on.
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix did you accidentally go to the border? CBP would probably just want to call Canadian authorities and confirm the permanent residency and then allow her to withdraw back to Canada.
 
@Mgetz no we crossed the border where we should so everything should be fine and everything was fine, just 1h30 paper seems a lot, when we entered Canada we waited 5min for validation and we were on our way.
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Do you mean illegal immigrants living in the US going to Canada, or do you mean American citizens going to Canada.
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix CBP had a computer outage this weekend... so they may have been actually using phones.
 
it was on friday so I guess we were lucky?
@Rick illegal immigrant is anyone that travel for something else than tourism or being a refugee
 
I don't think Canada puts too many barriers in the way of Americans getting Canadian citizenship.
 
8:07 PM
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix technically no? it's anyone who either lied on their Visa or over stayed it?
 
pretty much this, for example someone coming with a travel visa but try to work without proper permit.
 
yes, if a condition of your visa is not working and you do. Then the visa is technically canceled the moment you work.
 
@Rick not really, I do believe process time may be faster for US citizen but the rules are the same.
 
Depends on how brown you are...
 
And a citizen from anywhere else will receive the same selection based on education etc
 
8:13 PM
@Mgetz So is it like an extra month for every additional shade of brown?
 
@Mgetz I don't think so, soon Canada will get overcrowded by indians
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I was being snarky about the US
 
ah
But Canadian immigration is a real pain to get through
 
@Mgetz I believe attempting to enter the US without a visa is illegal as well (but yes there are lots of reasons other than tourism and refugee--student visas, various work visas such as H1B, and so on).
 
@JerryCoffin oddly didn't use to be, then congress realized that they could bar people for life by making it so!
not that it actually does anything...
 
8:17 PM
Well it technically still is illegal, if you claim to be a refugee then you're not crossing illegaly
it really depends on what you do after crossing
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I mean what's there really to do in Canada other than camping, fishing and getting bit by mosquitoes?
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix so there are two schools of thought here: A) anything not explicitly outlawed in the law is legal. B) anything not explicitly allowed in the law is illegal. Traditionally (A) had been the de-facto standard. But we're drifting dangerously into (B)
 
@Mgetz hmm aren't there something like "not guilty until proven otherwise?"
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix well legally yes you're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. But if the law is altered to such that they only have to show you did X rather than you intended to do X (mens rea) then that has a massive impact on society.
more and more mens rea is removed from the requirements of proof
Mens rea (; Law Latin for "guilty mind") is the mental element of a person's intention to commit a crime; or knowledge that one's action or lack of action would cause a crime to be committed. It is a necessary element of many crimes. The standard common law test of criminal liability is expressed in the Latin phrase actus reus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea, i.e. "the act is not culpable unless the mind is guilty". In jurisdictions with due process, there must be both actus reus ("guilty act") and mens rea for a defendant to be guilty of a crime (see concurrence). As a general rule, someone who...
 
8:25 PM
Generally speaking most people still assume Mens Rea is part of all crimes, and yet in most jurisdictions it's not
 
@Mgetz I'm not entirely convinced. This summer, my son and a bunch of his friends decided to go to Tijuana, and one of them (whose parents are actually from Mexico) accidentally left his passport in the car. Basically all that happened is that he had to sit in a waiting room until one of the others went to the car and got his passport.
 
@JerryCoffin I was being snarky? Although US citizens have technically been deported before (they were mentally handicapped or didn't speak english at all)
There was also the recent case of a US Citizen traveling on the wrong passport for dumb reasons nearly getting themselves deported (this was all over the news)
 
@Mgetz Being fair about it, there have always (or for a very long time, anyway) been crimes that didn't involve actual intent. For example, manslaughter is specifically for cases where there wasn't actual intent, only negligence (if intent could be shown, it would be murder instead).
 
@JerryCoffin not disputing that, but it has gone down to stupid crap like leaving your kids alone at home.
under the current law in a few states, even a 16 year old baby sitter would still be illegal
they'd have to be 18 and licensed
 
@Mgetz Oh, I quite agree that in some (many?) cases things have gotten quite insane. Some of it reminds me of the kid from down the street when I was probably seven years old or so, whose reaction to anything he didn't like was: "I'm gonna sue!" Of course, at that age he had no clue of details like civil vs. criminal law. Now we have some adults with the same attitude and little improvement in judgement or knowledge.
 
8:38 PM
@JerryCoffin The lawyers seem to be encouraging this attitude and making it easier for themselves to have jobs
The more complicated the law, and more lawsuits... the more lawyers you need
 
@Mgetz ...even if the mother is only 15.
 
@JerryCoffin no idea, wouldn't be surprised
 
@Mgetz Could be. About the only lawyers I know deal with patents,where the law is plenty complicated without anybody trying to make it more so.
 
also... eww
@JerryCoffin Thank the Federal circuit for that mess... the supreme court keeps coming in and wiping their garbage out
 
@Mgetz It's been a mess for a long time. The court of appeals for the federal circuit was formed specifically because it was a mess--but the SCOTUS has written some rulings that were pretty unclear, ambiguous, and so on. Especially when it comes to questions like the dividing line between patentable inventions and unpatentable ideas, I doubt there is a nice, clean, clearly-correct decision to be made.
 
9:11 PM
Patent law seems it doesn't really help the intended audience, those being the people who actually invent useful things.
 
Dammit, the lighting isn't great. Could just be where I'm sitting.
 
stream it live on youtube
or twitch or whatever
 
9:40 PM
Zen 2 TR unlikely this year.
But confirmed to happen.
It was hilarious. Ian Cutress managed to troll Lisa into giving out a "timeline" for Zen 2 TR.
 
10:18 PM
reminde me again what Zen 2 TR is
 
10:57 PM
TR is for thread ripper
 
Zen2 is TR with 7nm CPU... in other words, it's a huge cpu that almost nobody needs except that you could potentially used the higher end one to run games without graphic cards but just raycasting realtime
 

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