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12:15 AM
@Rick I'm very happy with a graph generator I recently completed. I takes a google maps image and translates it to a road system.
 
@CaptainGiraffe Sounds neat
I wanted something similar at some point
Was thinking it could be a cool source of data for procedural generation
 
@CaptainGiraffe you must share, please!!
or better yet do you have a raw data set I can work on
 
@Rick At its current state it contains some Personal data (not mine). So I'd need to get rid of that first. (20 mins of work)
 
cool!! so when can I get my hands on it! I don't want to be a douchebag of course and have any expectations :-)
@CaptainGiraffe You are blessed honored learned man sir with great wisdom in my book! I honor you Captain Giraffe! By the way that last dataset challenge was fucking awesome!
 
12:37 AM
@Rick Not much. They mostly band together trying to keep from feeling too inferior because Norway has a whole sea named after them, and Sweden and Finland have the share the Baltic with Denmark.
 
@JerryCoffin Those Danes always eyeing Iceland and giving the Swedes and Finns the squinty eye.
 
1:02 AM
@Mysticial I think much if what you posted about IO, is already implemented on hoc clusters.
 
@Rick Nah. The squinting is just from perpetually trying to keep ice from forming over their eyes during the 10 months of winter.
 
1:17 AM
@JerryCoffin lol true. You could say they are cool-headed.
 
@Rick I could say almost anything. After all, I've never let facts get in the way of a good (or even mediocre) joke.
 
1:32 AM
@JerryCoffin Your epigrams know no brinksmanship!
 
1:52 AM
@Rick Only when hockey is on the line, from what I've heard.
But then again that's the case with any hockey country.
 
 
3 hours later…
4:35 AM
@Mysticial also related to load and destroy, on the gpu you can directly get a pointer to the cache. In cuda there is a special keyword that is used to annotate an array as representing the alu group's cache. Would be cool if that annotation was moved to vanilla c++ langauge.
 
 
6 hours later…
10:06 AM
5
Q: C++ low level optimizations

Yan B.What kinds of low-level optimizations are there available in C++ and how to perform them? I know that it is currently encouraged to focus more on algorithm development than on micro-optimizations, but nevertheless some of them can actually improve performance or memory usage drastically.

A heads up on an attempt at a wiki.
Deserves some attention.
 
Am I correct in saying that just because you included a header in a cpp file, it doesn't mean that the linker will automatically get the relevant cpp file? So, if I had "main.cpp" which includes "foo.h", the compiler won't automatically link "foo.cpp" even though I had the header included?
 
10:26 AM
@Shan correct, the compiler doesn't know that the *.h and *.cpp are related
it's just pure convention that they have the same name
 
 
2 hours later…
12:07 PM
@Mysticial I suspect the CPU manufacturers won't bother on the cache control instructions because IIRC there are MSRs for just that
10
A: How can the L1, L2, L3 CPU caches be turned off on modern x86/amd64 chips?

Margaret BloomThe Intel's manual 3A, Section 11.5.3, provides an algorithm to globally disable the caches: 11.5.3 Preventing Caching To disable the L1, L2, and L3 caches after they have been enabled and have received cache fills, perform the following steps: Enter the no-fill cache mode. (Set ...

not sure how safe any of these would be to use from user mode however, due to context switching. Basically the cache clear would wipe any partially completed computations from them
I suspect something that delayed flushing out to memory until a cache flush would be better
 
 
3 hours later…
3:04 PM
@Mgetz Those are different. They only control the entire core's access to the cache as a whole. To do nothing about the individual accesses.
 
@Borgleader Apparently, Coliru is using clang 5.0. Judging by this, it should support C++17 template argument deduction, but evidently id doesn't. If you try your very same example in wandbox using clang 7.0, it works flawlessly. — Paolo M 7 hours ago
/cc @StackedCrooked ;) ;) ;)
 
@Mysticial yes and no, they can set aside regions that don't affect caching or only go to certain levels. Usually OS's use these to disable caching for DMA regions for example. Or to set aside cache for the kernel that must ALWAYS be hot and can't be invalidated etc.
 
@Mgetz But that doesn't do anything about stuff like the total memory bandwidth or prioritization of things that are in cache.
For example, load-and-destroy is about saving global memory bandwidth. CAT only lets you redistribute cache access.
 
@Mysticial no, it doesn't you're right. Those are hardware level things and stuff that JEDEC and the CPU manufacturers will have to figure out
@Mysticial technically CAT and similar MSRs (there are more) could satisfy load and destroy, but I don't think they meet that use case because they aren't usable from user mode at all
 
CAT is something that we mostly use in HFT as there's typically one or two threads that are really important. So we give them all the cache and none to the rest of the system.
 
3:17 PM
and even if you could set that for a process it would result in bad things
 
Or have set certain cache ways to be read-only for specific cores.
 
@Mysticial you're not running those with preemption are you?
 
@Mgetz There is no preemption. It's all disabled in the kernel.
 
Exactly, if you had preemption it could potentially cause really nasty things to happen because things might not get to main ram
Also apparently the 14th amendment died today
 
3:32 PM
@Mgetz what did he do now?
 
@ratchetfreak "They" decided that the courts can't enforce equal protection under the law when it comes to representation in congress
It's apparently a "Political" 🙄 question
without equal protection for representation we have a one party state and equal protection is out of the picture
 
So many countries just need a better voting system than just first-past-the-post. This nipping at the minutiae is such a waste of effort.
 
@Mgetz Is this the census question thing?
 
@Mysticial no the gerrymandering thing
 
oh
 
3:36 PM
The census thing they punted AFAIK
 
That's why I was confused.
 
Regardless the supreme court just effectively gutted courts ability to enforce equal protection
side note: I hate jenkins with a passion... it's garbage
 
Looks like a couple of fellow-level Intel chip architects followed me on Twitter.
Ok, way more attention than I bargained for.
 
@Mysticial maybe they should recommend their buddies at AMD too?
That's a small incestuous group
 
@Mgetz Maybe. So far no important AMD people have taken any visible action with respect to that post on twitter.
 
3:47 PM
@Mysticial by respect you mean respond at all or responded with derision?
 
@Mgetz Either a like, retweet, or a follow.
 
Dunno, I don't know who AMD's chip archs are
 
Something to indicate that they saw the tweet or read the contents of that blog.
I'm going mostly by their Twitter profile descriptions.
My primary motivation for publishing that blog is that longshot odd that something will actually be implemented in some future processor.
Mostly because there's plenty of criticism of Intel on certain instructions which seem misguided or didn't go through any real user vetting.
Which gives me the impression that Intel isn't really designing their ISA with much user feedback at all.
 
@Mysticial well I think they are getting vetting, just from such a select group that it doesn't apply to normal folks.
 
So I figured if I put something out there and write in a way to make it sound like the requests are from someone who actually knows hardware, they might actually take it seriously.
There's a lot of ISA requests on the internet. But most of them are from people who clearly have no knowledge of how the CPU works. Their requests are either unimplementable, or would be prohibitive from a cost/benefit standpoint.
 
3:52 PM
@Mysticial which is why I've generally stuck to something I've seen in practice and there are data for
 
The other thing is that I do have a public track record of actual hands-on HPC - even if it's in an area that's kinda useless.
 
yes and no, I'm actually surprised you don't have more contacts internally via your job
the fact that y-cruncher is used as a benchmark means intel cares
 
@Mgetz I'm actually trying to build those. Making an effort to go to more conferences.
IOW, to become that industry contract for my company.
 
@Mysticial kinda surprised they don't already have a liaison given how important Financial houses are for them given the parts y'all buy
 
@Mgetz We do, but mostly on the purchasing side. And those are mostly through vendors.
We have no real contacts into like the chip architects and such.
 
3:57 PM
@Mysticial ah normally you can leverage that to get team access by subtly suggesting that closer collab would make you less likely to hop to ASICs or AMD
tbf AMD is starting to look really good for some things
 
@Mgetz They're gonna keep hating me until they catch to Intel on the SIMD front.
Since my pi program remains one of the few benchmarks which AMD consistently gets crushed in over and and over again.
 
4:13 PM
is that benchmark more memory or execution bottlenecked?
 
@Mysticial I'm rather expecting with the full 256 op pipeline with Zen2 that should improve dramatically
 
@ratchetfreak Oh Skylake X, it's probably 50/50.
But on Zen 2, it's probably closer to 90% memory-bottlenecked.
Regardless, people do single-threaded tests for IPC comparisons.
@Mgetz The 16-core Zen 2 is losing the 16-core Skylake X by 3:2. But that's a combination of both memory bandwidth and AVX512.
 
Also load and destroy should be a langauge feature
 
@Mysticial are you even allowed to tell me that yet?
 
@Mgetz Yes, because they published the 16-core Zen 2 benchmark for 1 billion digits.
 
4:23 PM
Also isn't that a bit apples to oranges? Skylake-x is a prosumer chip, the 16core zen2 is consumer
 
@Mgetz Yes, but that's what AMD is trying to compete against. They're putting the feather-weight into the heavy-weight class.
So we'll need to wait for Zen 2 Threadripper.
 
True, but a lot more of the 16 cores will ship than skylake-x
That said it's been amusing watching all the x570 boards drop in with 10+ stage VRMs, clearly the OEMs are expecting that chip to draw a TON of power
 
The other thing is that the bandwidth problem will only affect the high-end chips.
AMD is gonna keep getting crushed in my benchmark on the budget chips with fewer cores.
 
yeah I'm curious how the lower core count TR chips will do
hopefully they clock well but I doubt AMD is going to ship a 16 core part, I suspect they'll start at 32
 
I haven't actually said much about it, but the Cannon Lake instructions are going to tip things so heavily in favor of Intel in every aspect that AMD's only hope to reach parity in my Pi benchmark is to copy those instructions.
 
4:35 PM
@Mgetz Let's at least try to be accurate. What they said was that there's nothing in the Constitution that says party membership or political leaning has to be taken into account when drawing district lines. From a legal viewpoint, I see little real foundation for disagreement.
 
@JerryCoffin excluding courts from reviewing (the practical result) does have 14th amendment impacts. They were very negligent not to consider that impact.
 
@Mgetz They didn't stop courts from reviewing in general. If there's an accusation of discrimination against a protected minority (e.g., on the basis of age, sex, religion or skin color) the courts can review just as much as they ever could. What they can't review is one based solely on party membership. If you're talking about districts in, say, Alabama, skin color follows closely enough with party membership that it's as open to review as ever.
The sole situation where there's a significant difficulty is where you don't have a significant protected minority population to protect.
In other words, if it's a question of "we drew this district to pack all the blacks together", it's just as open to judicial review as it ever was.
But, if the only issue you can raise is: "they drew a district to pack these old white guys together, and reduce their power compared to those other old white guys", then it's going to be difficult to get judicial review.
 
4420
A: RegEx match open tags except XHTML self-contained tags

bobinceYou can't parse [X]HTML with regex. Because HTML can't be parsed by regex. Regex is not a tool that can be used to correctly parse HTML. As I have answered in HTML-and-regex questions here so many times before, the use of regex will not allow you to consume HTML. Regular expressions are a tool th...

replace regex and html with json and property tree /cc @sehe
 
0
Q: What a hubbub of [pubsub]! (Rename PubSubHubBub to WebSub)

TRiGCurrently, pubsubhubbub pubsub → publish-subscribe PubSub is a short name for PubSubHubBub, which has now been renamed to WebSub. So we should have this: pubsub → pubsubhubbub → websub Meanwhile, Publish Subscribe might be used to describe this specific protocol, but according to the tag ...

 
4:56 PM
@JerryCoffin reading the decision I think they split the baby and did so badly
I don't think that racial gerrymandering can be treated different than partisan
 
@Mgetz I can see a solid argument for saying that partisan gerrymandering shouldn't be treated differently, but the simple fact is that nothing in the actual law says anything about political affiliation creating a protected minority status.
 
@JerryCoffin so if the law doesn't say anything about ____ that denies equal protection? the 14th amendment sets no limitations
> No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
So either that's void for vagueness, or it's basically dead in this court
 
5:19 PM
@Mgetz I have to disagree. It means quite a lot--just not what you want to stretch it to mean. Let's start with the easiest one. The second clause says you can't deprive people of freedom without due process of law. This was basically a clarification of the 13th amendment. The 13th prohibited slavery, but laws were being passed to re-institute slavery in all but name, so this prohibited them. Can we agree that this one doesn't really apply to gerrymandering?
 
@JerryCoffin going to have to agree to disagree
I think it's very clear based on prior precedents that equal protection limits the actions of the governement without significant governmental purpose
otherwise Oberfel is also void
I'm not saying courts can draw maps btw
just say that the existing process of drawing maps fails equal protection
the state must fix the result
 
@Mgetz So are you actually claiming that political gerrymandering is equivalent to slavery, or just refusing to look at the laws in detail, since doing so might force you to consider what they really say (and don't say)?
 
@JerryCoffin no I'm saying that it fails equal protection. That's all, it's incumbent on the government to say why they have a significant governmental purpose to draw districts that way
deliberately excluding voters from the process (what gerrymandering does) means that they are not equally protected under the law from voters that have a vote that matters (in this case republican primary voters)
it is in effect disenfranchisement and thus then fails the privileges clause
What I'm not saying: I'm not saying the courts can rule broadly on this. They would have to rule specifically that specific plaintiffs rights were violated. It's then incumbent on the state to fix
 
5:36 PM
@Mgetz That seems to be basically saying they're guilty until proven innocent. I don't see that going well. In fact, it would mean the current districts are cast in stone permanently, because no matter were lines are drawn, somebody can show that nobody had specific justification for putting this particular house on this side of the line instead of that side, and so on.
 
@JerryCoffin The government has no right to innocence until proven guilty. It's not a criminal case either. Regardless precedent set previously and continued in such cases such as oberfel v. hodges confirms that general line.
 
@Mgetz By that reasoning, all state lines are also illegal. Just for example, in California (where I happen to live) all Republicans are effectively disenfranchised at the federal level.
 
@JerryCoffin that's one heck of a leap... you really do have a bad habit of going into hyperbole when arguing
Not saying there aren't issues with Cali... there are
but cali has a lot of GOP reps
 
@Mgetz It's not hyperbole at all. It's the obvious, natural result of the reasoning you're trying to use.
 
@JerryCoffin no it's not, there are significant governmental reasons for most of these things
disenfranchising voters deliberately is not one of them
In the case of california there was actually malicious intent btw, but cali joined the union prior to the 14th amendment anyway.
Same with Colorado for what it's worth and we joined afterwards
the intent was to put control over gold and silver out of the hands of the mormons
What I'm trying to say that I think is being missed is that deliberate intent to disenfranchise is illegal in my opinion under the 14th amendment
which was the case in NC
 
5:46 PM
@Mgetz The very existence of the Senate (for only one obvious example) "disenfranchises voters deliberately". Yes, there's a significant reason for doing that (E.g., without it, the US probably wouldn't exist), but that is what it does, and what it was clearly intended to do from the very beginning. So by your reading, the 14th amendment also prohibits the existence of the Senate.
 
@JerryCoffin again no, you're over reading it and missing the "Valid governmental purpose" part
 
@Mgetz I'm simply pointing out the obvious, logical result of how you're trying to read it.
 
@JerryCoffin except you're not, you're going to extremes by assuming that nothing has valid governmental purpose
thus distracting from the conversation without providing any valuable input
that might work in debate class, but it won't work with me
0
Q: Are Windows or custom messages requiring updating pointers exploitable?

user3161924It appears that cross process messages are allowed in Windows, and while Windows appears to have protection so that a lower process can't inject a message to a higher process, say they are at the same level at the time and a message is created with an invalid pointer that gets updated. Isn't tha...

someone who doesn't understand the concept of privilege levels
 
@Mgetz Based on what I've heard so far, you seem to use "valid governmental purpose" as a synonym for "with which I agree".
 
@JerryCoffin no, that's not the case I don't always agree with what the government does. That doesn't mean the government doesn't have a right to do it.
The government can take land I live on through eminent domain, there is nothing I can do about that insofar as they follow due process of law
the key to that is that if I don't like that I have the right to seek change to the law.
but if that right is infringed then I have no way to change the due process
 
5:56 PM
@Mgetz let me put it more clearly: I haven't seen you make a clear statement about what does and what does not constitute a valid governmental purpose, and you seem to find it sufficiently flexible that what you like (or at least don't question) qualifies, and anything you dislike doesn't.
 
@JerryCoffin it's been generally defined by the courts to mean "Necessary to the administration of government and general safety of the public" or there abouts. I believe the supreme court actually gave a clear definition
 
@Mgetz Okay, so how is disenfranchising Republicans in California necessary to the administration of government and general safety of the public, but disenfranchising Democrats in NC is not?
 
@JerryCoffin how is that relevant at all? The amendment only refers to the states and federal government not to the boundaries
the issue is that GOP in cali are significantly out numbered, but they are proportional in their state's representation.
in NC the government deliberately disenfranchised voters
major difference
Honestly it's very frustrating having this conversation because there is no qualificaiton
 
6:32 PM
@Mgetz I think you're finding it frustrating because it's forcing you to question things you find it uncomfortable to question. You're faced with the fact that you're trying to enforce a standard that would destroy the country if it were actually enforced uniformly.
 
@JerryCoffin no I'm frustrated because you're going to extremes instead of trying to actually question the argument. If you had asked "How is that different from?" instead of saying "Well what about" I'd be a lot less frustrated
Whataboutism is annoying as hell
whataboutism is used to distract and prevent discussion
 
 
1 hour later…
7:38 PM
@Mgetz There's no "whataboutism" involved at all. You're taking an extreme interpretation of the amendment, and I'm simply pointing out where that leads.
 
@JerryCoffin I'm going to disagree completely, the amendment was made to protect the rights of citizens in a broad way deliberately
otherwise it's completely useless and as aforementioned Oberfel wouldn't be valid
If you want to argue this pull from here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obergefell_v._Hodges#Dissenting_opinions
 
@Mgetz As I've tried to point out repeatedly: if you take the amendment at face value, and enforce it exactly as written, then the senate and all states (among many other things) are clearly illegal. No room for question about it. If you decide not to take that route, then you're using some level of judgement about exactly how literally it should be taken--exactly what's really covered, and what isn't.
 
@JerryCoffin whereas I think that's an extreme interpretation even of face value
the senate is in the constitution and cannot be changed
the states are governmental entities with a clear process for admittance and required for governance
 
You've made it pretty clear that on one hand, you want it taken absolutely literally about some things, but want it ignored completely with respect to others. In short, you want to make a judgement call about exactly what it means and what it does. And that's exactly what SCOTUS has done--it's just that the judgement call they made is one you don't like.
 
you could make the argument that NEW states must meet that criteria
 
7:50 PM
@Mgetz What do you think a Constitutional Amendment does, if not change the Constitution?
 
@JerryCoffin not quite. First and foremost I think that someone needs to show injury from a governmental policy. If they can prove injury (tort) then the government needs to show that there is a good faith governmental reason for that policy. full stop
@JerryCoffin it does, but the last change to the senate was the 12th amendment at no time was the senate abolished
nor the 12th amendment overriden
Otherwise the copyright clause would be invalid
and that IS a much bigger debate
 
@Mgetz The existence of senate violates the 14th amendment (as you're reading it), therefore the 14th amendment abolished the senate.
 
@JerryCoffin no it doesn't?
really not sure where you're getting that interpretation
again I think you're going to non-logical extremes
and this isn't the first time you've done this
 
@Mgetz It disenfranchises voters, and you said that violates the 14th amendment.
 
@JerryCoffin Connecticut compromise
 
7:54 PM
@Mgetz Seeing the logical conclusion of an illogical argument? You're right, it's not.
 
otherwise the house would be unconsititutional by your argument
so no you're not making sense
you're off the deep end
 
@Mgetz What of it? It was made in 1787. The 14th amendment changed the Constitution, and the way you're reading it, prohibited the Senate, because the Senate disenfranchises some voters.
 
@JerryCoffin disenfranchisement isn't itself illegal which is what you seem to be missing. There is a valid governmental purpose. The issue at hand was the malicious intent, not the doing
I'm honestly done discussing this because either you're not actually listening or reading, or I'm failing so poorly at communicating that it's not ever going to translate
 
@Mgetz As you pointed out previously, the 14th amendment contains no such limitation.
 
31 secs ago, by Mgetz
I'm honestly done discussing this because either you're not actually listening or reading, or I'm failing so poorly at communicating that it's not ever going to translate
so congrats you achieved what you wanted, you shut down the conversation by frustration
 
8:00 PM
@Mgetz No, the problem is that you're contradicting yourself. You want the 14th amendment to be limited to things you consider legitimate when that suits your purpose, but read as having no limitations at all when that suits your purpose. You can't have it both ways. It's either limited or it's not.
 
@JerryCoffin no I'm using the case law as interpreted by this very court in general. Which as been incredibly consistent when it is not a partisan issue
you on the other hand are treating everything as black and white
there is no room for gray
and that is not something that allows for discussion
because a narrow interpretation of the amendment (let's call it the Scalia interpretation) means that it has zero power at all
at which point why even have an amendment
please stop assuming where my frustrations are coming from
they are coming from how this is being approached and how assumptions are being made
 
@Mgetz Rather the contrary. I'm simply taking you at your word. But you seem to be basing this on the notion that there was a time when things like this weren't partisan. And on that, I'm afraid you're just plain wrong. If you look back to the very beginning (e.g,. Marbuy v. Madison) it was partisan long before (just to give one example) anybody had even dreamt of the 14th amendment.
 
@JerryCoffin no you're not
you're ignoring any nuance and 98% of what I've said
and treating it 100% as a black and white literal issue
which is honestly trolling
 
@Mgetz Here's a direct copy and paste: "the 14th amendment sets no limitations". Now, are you claiming that SO has been hacked and you actually didn't say that? Or are you claiming that "sets no limitations" somehow really means "sets limitations"?
 
@JerryCoffin again you interpret over broadly in an attempt to put me on the defensive, please stop. That was in direct response to your assertion that only a super narrow interpretation was allowed
 
8:09 PM
Or do you mean: it sets no limitations, but others get to set limitations on what it really means, but only if those limitations happen to agree with what you want them to mean?
 
this is not a productive conversation, I'd highly suggest sending the entire thing to the bin
 
@Mgetz So I'll ask directly: does it mean exactly what it says, or is it limited to meaning less than it says? If the latter, who exactly decides on what those limitations are?
 
I have asked to end the conversation
I believe at this time that is not productive and has turned into something far worse
 
@Mgetz It has turned into a question of whether the 14th amendment means exactly what it says, or is actually narrower than what it says. You originally espoused the position that it meant exactly what it said--so I pointed out what that would actually mean (such as abolishing the senate and all state lines). Obviously you didn't like that either. So you're stuck with limiting it to less than what it says.
 
@JerryCoffin no it didn't it turned into you putting me on the defensive and attacking
the contents were irrelevant
 
8:18 PM
@Mgetz I think it's a simple situation that you took a position that when examined in any detail at all was obviously ridiculous. But at no point did I attack you personally, or anything close to it. In fact, I didn't really even attack the idea--I just pointed out its unavoidable consequences. You only felt attacked because you realized that the position you'd taken was untenable.
 

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