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00:36
@Mikhail If you're easily replaceable, the union won't help much, and if you're irreplaceable, you don't need a union. Unions only help if you're right at the point that replacing a small percentage of people is cheap/easy, but replacing a large percentage of them is expensive/difficult.
01:23
@JerryCoffin So why the lack of unions in white collar positions? You can't easily replace a bunch of engineers or specialists that easily.
Though replacing one or two is easy as long as they're not the one-bus.
01:40
@Mysticial Replacing even one is expensive enough that companies not only need a good reason to do so, but often keep people they'd probably be better off firing.
'Expensive' is a relative thing.
This tech worker at the 2nd largest telco company in the country owes me 5 weeks rent for the car space he is using.
02:11
Ya'll missed the point. The union can't help, if you can import scabs.
No one in this universe is irreplaceable, with the exception of universe itself probably.
02:26
You know what's lacking in this world? True geniuses. The likes of Issac Newton. There are less true geniuses than billionaires in this world. Money can not buy what does not exist in human society and without true geniuses, we can not get to the next level.
02:45
@TelKitty Issac Newton was crazy
I suspect that many people are, just true geniuses don't bother to hide.
03:01
@TelKitty Issac Newton hid his religious beliefs, if he had expressed his beliefs he would have been killed for heresy
@Rick People are not God, we are flawed. That's life. True geniuses are still just people. The difference between them and vast majority of others is that, they can lead people into exploring field that people were not aware before.
I don't believe there are true geniuses
I believe there are, just they are very few in numbers and need luck to be noticed.
 
2 hours later…
05:22
Tinder Gold let's you change your age
06:18
@Mikhail tinder women are attracted to older men. You should inflate your age. And put down that you play the saxophone in your free time.
I've been on the site for 1 day and I've lost a lot of respect for humanity. Curiously my chief criticism is that everybody is forced to look the same. A random, matching system would do better.
I think tinder is for no strings attached one night stands
I've had more success wihh that by telling chicks crazy stuff, or at proffesional conferences
Literally walking up to chicks at a bar would work better than tinder. I know.
But what I most hate are the limited biographies. To an outside obsever, it makes everybody look like the same person, and also an idiot.
Tinder is the Walmart meat market you are not going to find quality.
Quality is expensive
I thought that I have found a perfect laser level for surveying the big piece of land - the set includes everything we need, the accuracy is high, the price low. It even looks great. Then I found out it's for indoor use only with operative distance slightly greater than 5 meters.
06:34
Another terrible analogy. I'm confident the people on it are fine. It a just that the outlet limits your ability to express yourself. I'm sure the people are more interesting than their bios.
The land is more than 500 meters long.
So you gotta play this meta game, that I dont quite understand.
06:45
No one is a paragraph, people are complicated. People love games and no one plays for the same thing. No one wants to lose so everyone sets different objectives to secure a win, and their ego at same time.
Boost ego through online dating is quite sad.
Playing games in real life is more fun. Real estate agent accused me of liking to play games (so we can get the land for lower price). But the seller wouldn't sell if they were not happy with the price.
Well it's more sad when the ego and pride prevents you from seeing things as they are. It prevents progress and retards development. That's why clarity of thought is important, know what you might not be aware of. In other words systemic critical thinking and introspection
The end is that everyone is happy - we get the land, seller is selling at a price more than double of what they have paid 6 years ago, solicitors and agent get their share. Did I not mention state revenue - large amount for doing nothing.
07:18
Not sure what the comment means. I was trying to communicate that the tinder matching system, seems to be incomplete, and reductionist to a single sentence (which often plays a meta game, and is expressed using language and terms outsiders won't understand) . You'd benefit from communicating with specificity.
If u r 1337 hax, u can hack their matching system so every 1 matches with u. </trollololo>
07:40
As a hobby, I like to survey my front and backyard.
This person needs a real hobby :x
07:58
nwp
nwp
Hey, that elephant is doing a pretty good job considering its size.
On an unrelated note, have you folks ever outsourced part of a project to a freelancer? We have SBIR funds for about 4 months to do C++, but I'm not sure the best way to find a person.
08:42
How to keep oneself for being forever humble, and yet always full of self confidence? It's to always venture into new fields. Just as I am gathering more knowledge in A.I. & robotics, this survey task is project me into a complete newbie again.
08:56
I'm a freelancer... please gib me jerb
jerb jerb
also hi everyone :)
I only hire qt developers
09:21
Good $timeofday!
template <typenam Type, Type val> constexpr Type TConst = val;

constexpr auto const MySuperConstant = TConst<char, ‘a’>;
what on Earth is this?
I know there are function templates, class templates, and recently also alias templates a.k.a using
but the above is a template of what? is this valid c++17?
@PeterT Thanks! I intend to learn c++ with c++11 primer, of which I have a hard copy already. Looks like it's not enough any more
Probably makes sense to purchase the Vandevoorde Templates 2nd as well?
10:00
I don't know. Not much of a book person. I tend to just use references and learning by doing. For new ideas I just watch conference talks nowadays
10:22
I see. I've spent a god few years under a rock and now am lost when faced with the new c++.
11:21
@TelKitty laser level? Are you charging by the hour?
@ABuckau We are buying one to survey the land we will be using to construct the solar farm.
Besides, we do small developments occasionally, so it might be used for other projects.
seems overkill. ?
Hi, could any of you 10k users make a screenshot of this deleted question - stackoverflow.com/questions/56646263/… ?
Buying an instrument costs $300, hire a person with an instrument would cost $3000 for this job alone.
to make ground level enough for concrete slabs? Not overkill?
11:28
Need to plan where to put fences, how to arrange the solar panels. But first, we need contour map in order to do that.
Also like I said, we have built 2 houses before and are likely to build more in the future.
We do fair a bit real estate development, own a laser level seems to be a reasonable thing to do.
11:57
@TelKitty honestly it's reasonable for anyone that does reasonable DIY
it's the only way to get all the things on the same level
@Mgetz We have a few bubble levels for that.
You don't need laser levels.
@TelKitty bubble levels are nice for individual items, but if you want to say get all the plasterboard on the same line so you don't waste materials they won't do
It's hard to get all the plasterboard on the same line anyways. Frames behind plasterboard might not be totally aligned to start with, then there are glues between plasterboard and frame. You need to put filler in between plasterboards and when they dry, it might be uneven.
Also you can use the bubble level across the line to make sure it's roughly even.
 
2 hours later…
14:10
 
3 hours later…
16:51
Finally someone who matters said it:
If the solution to "beginners are not welcome" ends up being "experts are not welcome" then it is game over. I resisted it for years, too, but a separate, beginner focused stack overflow (with beginner oriented rules, and special beginner tooling) feels inevitable to me at this point if the site wants to survive. — Jeff Atwood 8 hours ago
anyone had any experience with gluon mxnet do you know why or why it might not be better to go with over tensorflow for c++?
17:25
@Mysticial He'd said that in a comment, who's gonna see that?
Also no one gives a damn and why should they. A tiny minority of privileged (sic!) users is upset - who cares?
@Mysticial "Beginner SO" isnt that just asking for a cesspool of homework questions/debugmycode/etc ?
People are fed up of answering these I dont know how making a site just for those helps anything
I used to think that too until I saw the other side of it.
For example, the colleagues around me. Everybody has questions they want to ask on SO, but nobody dares to ask because they all know they'll get shit on.
They're no beginners by a long shot.
The shit users that we see on SO are the minority help vampires that don't know better.
So what SE is trying to do is to get veteran users to shop shitting on new users since that's hurting their image.
But in doing so, they're now shitting on the veteran users.
The cesspool of vampire content is unavoidable, but there's an even bigger problem now.
17:44
This was deleted by Tim Post, and seems to be exactly the crux of the current issue
They dont want new users to do their homework
Saw it. Basically confirms what a lot of us have been suspecting.
18:01
More generally, they don't want to do anything that could possibly reduce the site's traffic. It's been fairly "flat" for a while now, and I'm sure they'd prefer to see it grow instead (though I don't support this is exactly news to most Loungers).
s/support/suppose/
18:18
Hey there
@Borgleader Oops--yeah.
@Shoe Hello.
@Mysticial One problem (at least as I see it) is that a fair (unfair?) number of users have decided on a number of very specific "things" they want to see in every question, whether any of them is actually necessary to provide a good answer to a particular question or not.
@JerryCoffin I'll agree to that. At least partially. I've seen people complain about an MVCE because the includes (or main) is missing but the code present is clearly enough to answer the question (without even needing to compile it)
18:57
@Borgleader Exactly the sort of thing I had in mind.
19:18
should one distinguish between a pointer and iterator in a vector, are they non-mutally exclusive things?
I often associate iterators with generators
19:48
@Rick It's possible to implement vector::iterator as a pointer. In, say, 2000, that was pretty common. I'd be more surprised to see it nowadays though.
I find it to be a strange dichotomy, they are like two different concepts sharing the same space. like a union of what would otherwise be a disjoint set of concepts.
@JerryCoffin is it still possible? I thought that they were required to be a different type to avoid overload pitfalls when a function is overloaded for pointers and for vector iterators
@JerryCoffin I kinda feel some of these are a result of them removing good (but abused) close reasons
@Morwenn I hope this conversation descends into number theory!! fingers crossed
Hardly, I don't know shit about number theory x)
20:04
if we ask how an iterator works and how a pointer moves from one element to the next we might get lucky
What does this have to do with number theory?
how do the transistors in a cpu implement loop logic so that when an array is iterated it knows what the next value is
like how are the jumps being made from 1 to 2 in the bits.
in the cpu itself
are you asking how any values are incremented? Or are you asking how the "program counter" is manipulated to "go next"?
how is the program counter manipulated to go next
but i feel like implementation is a part of that
in the extremely simplified model, the address to the instruction is written to the program counter register and then the next instruction is read from there. But in practise there's a lot more involved on modern processors
I feel like with things like MIPS you felt like you were controlling it more directly because you had stuff like delay-slots to deal with
but with the modern levels of processor-controlled reorderings and stuff it always seems a little more complicated. Always one more micro-code thing, always one more cache-level. But I guess that's just speaking from ignorance because I've never tried to have more than a surface-level understanding of those things
20:25
@PeterT but what is the program counter
I am assuming it's a type of some kinds that moves in a linear direction
1,2,3...
and in order
@Mikhail Ask KDAB, The Qt Company or ICS?
@Rick at a most basic level it doesn't?
it's up to the instruction stream... see turing machine
You can conceptualize it as just another register. So just of memory containing some bits (a couple flip-flops if you want to).
you can have it be incremented by a clock signal, that's how it's usually modelled in explainations
@Morwenn Maybe--I'd have to do some looking to be sure.
@Mgetz Maybe--but most of what I'm thinking of are questions that didn't look to me like they needed to be closed at all.
@PeterT so computers are clocks that count in order and forward in time.
are there any models that don't operate on that premise?
20:33
@Rick Pretty much just on half-adder plus N bits of full adders.
well you can just straight up increment it, but you also write a non-contiguous value to the program-counter when you do "jumps". I think the "TSC" is the thing that just counts up regardless of what else happens
@JerryCoffin ... but but but... the propagation latency!
@Mysticial Well, of course in a modern CPU it's probably more complex than that. But for the moment, let's assume something old enough that the way it acts matches reasonably closely with how it's actually implemented.
@PeterT you are right we can get operations to jump between the different elements in say an array, we can jump to the back and we can jump 5 elements forward, but it's always part of some process that's being driven by something counting up one step at a time like the gears of a clock
Yeah, sure if you're asking how "progress" or "time" is achieved out of a solid-state processor, then yeah it's just something resonating at a frequency like the pendulum of a clock
20:42
@Rick No, it's not. When you do something like indexing into an array with a[10], it's not loading from a and then incrementing 10 times. It's loading from a, taking the size of an element of a, multiplying by 10, and adding the result once. The x86 even has instructions specifically for tasks like this, so even at the assembly language level, I can do things like assume ebx ptr dword; mov eax, ebx[10].
That will take 10, scale it by the size of a dword (4), add that to ebx, and load a value from the resulting address into eax.
@JerryCoffin so some set of steps within a closure
Clocks can tick backwards. It's called time travel.
21:05
@JerryCoffin I think close votes are also getting used instead of real votes too
time only moves forward in time
correction the arrow of time only moves forward
@Mysticial Also called "daylight savings time", or "summer time" (and I'm pretty sure I've heard less...pleasant names as well).
@Rick More importantly, however, do an entirely different set of steps than you suggested. Adding 10 by incrementing 10 times might be halfway reasonable, but adding (say) 2^60 by incrementing 2^60 times is considerably less practical.
21:35
@JerryCoffin your right, what I meant to say by jumping 5 elements forwards or back, by means of a mathematical operation, like multiplication or some other set of steps, not directly related to the array itself. That the walk we perform might not seem linear with respect to the array, how the elements are accessed or traversed, but that the discontinuity we create emerges from a process that is fundamentally linear and constant in time.
@Rick Ummm...sure, I guess.
@Mgetz Probably. On the other hand, I tend to VtC, up-vote, or ignore. Down-vote only rarely.
Why do black holes get move love than abstract mathematics in this room? That's a far greater travesty!
Because your mom's so fat that she has an event horizon?
scr
@Rick Black holes hold a singular position in our minds.
22:27
Well Yo mama so fat, CIG's waiting on OCS to load her in. burrrrn!!
:-o :-)
@Rick To be a solid burn, you need to be sure that the burnee understands what you've said. Kind of reminds me of a time years ago a guy got really upset with me until I explained my position. When he was younger, he'd apparently been a football player, and during a game one night, somebody had apparently called him a "wigger" (apparently a contraction of "white" and "nigger"), but at the time, he didn't know what that meant.
I thought it was hilarious, and he was pissed at me until I explained that what I thought was hilarious was a bigot doing his absolute best to be an asshole (which I'd have thought was one of the easiest jobs possible) and failing at it. Until about then, I'd never even considered the possibility, and probably wouldn't have believed it was possible. But I'd have clearly been wrong.
Somehow I could almost picture the moron getting home, and his mother doing a warped version of the standard mother's wheeze about: "I spent 14 hours in labor, and spent 18 years raising you to be a narrow-minded, bigoted, racist jerk, and now you can't even be an asshole properly! You're no son of mine!"
22:49
@LucDanton That's interesting. France actually competes with Lithuania for the lowest rate of union membership.
the only logical conclusion is for other countries to do the opposite
23:07
@LucDanton I'm mostly about writing fake news. Part of the confusion is on the requirements for delegues du personnel, which is so unheard of in America, I'm not sure how to best translate it. Maybe employee delegates...
The percentages are lower for smaller workplaces, but, even in workplaces with between 20 and 49 employees, 20% had both a trade union delegate and elected representatives and 45% had just elected representatives.
but it’s not a union
you can’t use it in your argument as if it were
I think to many outsiders it would seem that French employees are required to be part of something resembling a union, as they are granted a bargaining position. This would envoke a sacrebleu at many American firms. It certainly did when a friend's company tried to setup shop in France.
@JerryCoffin no one gets an asset database reading to client interface.
@Mikhail not to assail pointlessly you with information, but to get to the point: what if the 'some other bullshit' angle was on your end? what if labour relations was just the normal thing?
23:20
@LucDanton I don't particularly know or have anything against the French system. But I would like to emphasize the rather boring point, that in the US, there is less worker protection.
23:34
In Sweden there is even less worker protections (nevermind the mandated holidays), now I feel bad. I need to renew my membership.
@CaptainGiraffe I have always wanted to know what kind of jobs do people do in the North of Sweden. Does anyone even live up there?
@Rick Some do Computer Science stuff, about 5.6% do computer engineering.
and the rest just the fish industry
@Rick The baltic sea cod was sadly outfished in the 80's
so what industry drives the economy up there?
23:40
@Rick And the comp-eng guys makes sure the wood (spruce and pine) is taken care of in the most efficient manner.
@Rick Mining is also big in the really northern parts.
Why do I again get "connection is not secure" in this chat?
Do the Swedes ever get into rivalry with the Finns
@Rick Absolutely. The hockey games are the fiercest.
@Rick That said, they are our brothers.
Scandinavians oof! so goddam jolly! How did Linus Torvalds lose all the jolliness when he came to America.
They are your brothers, then where are your sisters? Norway?
23:56
@CaptainGiraffe have you worked on any interesting graph problems recently?
@Mgetz @Mikhail So this thing that I posted 2 days ago...
It picked up a bit more attention than I had anticipated.
Including some chip architects at ARM and Intel...
Anything involving Hamiltonian paths or Derangements?

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