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2:30 AM
After spending hours studying neural networks, I have found that lidar is much better in many field applications because it's 3D.
 
2:41 AM
Laugh when you encounter a code comment in vulcan.
 
 
5 hours later…
8:08 AM
I must repent - I have been watching other people patting their pet chickens on youtube.
 
nwp
Is that what they call it nowadays?
 
8:27 AM
@nwp Yes, above is an excellent example of a lady petting her chickens, not so much so petting but like ... hugging.
Very satisfactory for me.
 
 
1 hour later…
Also hugging hens without their permission might be chicken harassment.
 
 
nwp
10:32 AM
Why has while (init; conditon) not been added to C++20?
It's so annoying when there is an obvious elegant solution and you simply can't use it.
 
10:53 AM
because for(init; condition;) does the exact same thing?
 
nwp
I have a function expression_that_evaluates_to_a_vector and want to loop until the returned vector is not empty. while (init; condition) wouldn't do that either.
auto v = expression_that_evaluates_to_a_vector;
while (v.empty())
    v = expression_that_evaluates_to_a_vector;
Somehow the repetition bothers me.
 
I've this code - now if thread A calls the pop method, will thread B be able to call the put method?
since A takes the object's lock
 
nwp
pthread_cond_wait unlocks the mutex while waiting, so at first glance it should be fine.
 
@nwp would the comma operator help at all?
 
nwp
Line 43 seems wrong though. Pretty sure you mean pthread_mutex_unlock.
 
11:07 AM
oops, yeah
thanks
saved me 24 hours of debugging
 
nwp
@ratchetfreak I don't see how to combine that with a loop. Declarations are statements, so you can't put them in a comma expression.
[]{
    if (auto v = expression_that_evaluates_to_a_vector; not v.empty())
        return v;
    return this->operator()();
}();
If we had recursive lambdas I could see this becoming an idiom.
 
@StackedCrooked Nope, in most ABIs the number of parameter registers is actually rather small
 
11:29 AM
also do{}while; exists: do{v = expression_that_evaluates_to_a_vector;}while (v.empty()); It does require declaring the v outside the loop to access it after
 
11:44 AM
what IDE do you guys use for C/C++? I use codeblocks but lately It has been crashing randomly and bugs out
+ linkage issues
 
@VioAriton I'm lazy and use VS2017, but VSCode is nice
 
I guess that's just for windows, right?
 
@VioAriton VSCode is multi-platform
 
Have you wondered how the tiny fly could handle the visual input of so many eyes?
 
nwp
FPGA
 
11:54 AM
a dedicated neural network
 
@TelKitty the same way your brain puts together an image from the rods and cones in your retina
 
so what does __restrict actually do
 
@VioAriton technically? not much, it's just a promise to the compiler that you shouldn't alias
 
what do you mean by alias
 
@VioAriton pointing to the same block of memory with a different pointer as if it was different
 
12:01 PM
oh so something like this a = &a
 
no more like:
 
*a = *b
 
int *b = new int[40];
int *a = &b[10];
This is fine in a function where the compiler can see what's going on, but when you pass it to another method it messes the compiler up because it must assume that a and b overlap
restrict in c or the various __restrict custom modifiers in C++ are basically a promise that they won't overlap
and thus the compiler doesn't have to be super careful
so for example memcpy uses restrict for it's parameters and thus can be implemented in terms of large vector registers. Whereas memmove does not have that and uses rep stosb instead (there are some weird perf quirks where for larger size moves memmove is actually faster on some hardware).
 
thb
12:42 PM
The C++ standard committee has posted the post-Kona mailing.
 
what are some C books for people who already know about the basic stuff-- pointer and so on--?
so I can convince myself that I don't know C
 
@VioAriton nobody actually knows C, they just pretend they know enough to get by
3
 
nwp
12:59 PM
Reminds me of Deep C.
 
@Mgetz I surely hope those who does kernel programming knows C, otherwise all the major OS are screwed.
 
@TelKitty have you seen the linux kernel?
 
I have, indeed, albeit, very small percent of the kernel, many years ago. It's not very exciting.
I mean, it's open source, so it has to look neat. Not like some of close sourced code. I have seen many of them. Spaghetti like, many commented out code, very hard to read and understand.
 
nwp
1:14 PM
Rereading Deep C, I don't think the author has a god grasp on undefined behavior.
@TelKitty People usually do not consider the Linux kernel code neat.
 
and It's also too colorful
 
nwp
What?
struct A;
struct B {
    friend void A::foo(std::string);
};
^ Should totally be valid.
 
2:21 PM
Anyone know a good canonical to use as a dupe target for explaing ranged based for loops? I've found this and this but I'm not happy with either
 
2:52 PM
umh, what's wrong with this one
static inline void make_node(void * data_, struct QNode * new_) {
if((new_ = malloc(sizeof(struct QNode)))) {
new_->data = data_;
new_->next = NULL;
} else {
free(new_);
new_ = NULL;
}
}
If I call node->data (the node that was passed as parameter) I get segmentation
after the make_node function
and works If I do it without the make_node function
 
nwp
Your else path makes no sense. Also passing new_ makes no sense because it gets immediately overwritten.
Also use the magic fixed font button.
 
@VioAriton The only reason execution would go into that else is if malloc fails and returns NULL, which means you're now freeing NULL and then assign NULL again to it.
 
nwp
And maybe go here.
 
wait
how am I in the lounge
 
Only you can answer that question, my friend.
 
2:57 PM
must have missclicked - sorry
 
@EtiennedeMartel technically freeing NULL is a nop
 
@Mgetz Yeah, the whole else is a noop.
 
that said it causes unnecessary spills, but a compiler might just optimize the entire thing out
Lol clang and GCC just optimize the entire thing out
because there are no visible side effects
because new_ should be QNode**
void make_node(void * data_, struct QNode ** new_) {
    if((*new_ = static_cast<QNode*>(malloc(sizeof(struct QNode))))) {
        (*new_)->data = data_;
        (*new_)->next = NULL;
    } else {
        free(*new_);
        new_ = NULL;
    }
}
That does result in free being optimized out
 
nwp
Banned for casting malloc :D
 
@Mgetz new_ = NULL; should be *new_ = NULL;
 
3:08 PM
@nwp I was too lazy to switch the compiler to c
@ratchetfreak derp you're right
kinda surprised clang didn't just optimize the entire method out then!
so apparently Intel doesn't optimize out the free godbolt.org/z/bvaedl
 
nwp
3:49 PM
@nwp That should be (*this)(); instead of that operator nonsense.
 
 
2 hours later…
5:47 PM
 
Force inline all the things!
 
@StackedCrooked looks like MSVC stops at 4
but again.. it probably depends on ABI
 
I usually inline all the hot stuff and allow the compiler to decide on whether or not to really inline. The cool thing about inline is that the compiler can see inside the function. So even if it doesn't inline it, it can still optimize on the knowledge that certain data won't be changed inside that function.
 
kinda surprised that intel isn't just aligning the stack, doing a load and then an haddepu32
 
@Mgetz You can't if the they're in GPRs already?
 
5:53 PM
@Mysticial fair
 
Also haddepu32 isn't a reduction operation.
Even if it was for the spilled parameters, it's probably a rare enough optimization that nobody would think or it let-alone implement it.
 
Hm, Google doesn't know haddepu32.
 
@StackedCrooked vphaddd
 
Ah. Thanks.
 
@StackedCrooked I skipped adding the prefix
 
5:56 PM
Also, these horizontal instructions suck.
 
@Mysticial slower than just doing it?
 
@Mgetz If you need the operation exactly as the instruction does, then it's fine. But nearly all cases where one might be tempted to use it involve reduction operations - which there's better ways.
IIRC, hadd's were fast when first introduced with SSE3. But they've since simplified the SIMD units to not have any cross-lane dependencies - except for the dedicated shuffle unit.
 
6:24 PM
Recently added profiling code (rdtsc based measurements) to the production code. It turns out to be extremely helpful when refactoring or adding new features.
 
For preventing regressions?
 
Yep.
I needed to switch from stack-allocated array storage with constant size to dynamically sized storage on the heap.
(The allocation happens only once during the start of the program. So that's not an issue.)
However, it allowed me to implement a naive first version. Then check the performance regression. And then try to fix that regression.
It worked really well.
 
yep. When performance becomes correctness.
Though it's harder to make them actual unit tests due to jitter.
 
Also. It's it allows me to check if changes made by other people causes regressions. It makes me less anxious to allow other people to touch the code.
@Mysticial Yeah. Currently, it's not like an assertion. I just log the timings and check them manually.
But that's better than nothing :)
 
The regressions that I pay attention to are anything that is noticeable. Basically anything over 0.5% I'll look into.
But that's well below jitter for a parallel unit test environment.
So I have to run them manually in isolation.
Sometimes there will be an accumulation of small regressions that collectively add up to over 0.5%. I typically notice these when I'm comparing the latest build trunk build with the current public release after many months have passed.
I hate these.
 
6:33 PM
I'm having similar issues when trying to write tests that detect regressions in TCP loss recovery. One of the problems is that sometimes packet loss occurs due to crc errors etc.
Had to rewrite tests a few times due to false positives.
 
I have a set of unit benchmarks which I run manually. But they are very exhaustive and take an hour each. So I don't normally run them.
 
One strategy is to repeat the test multiple times and check the best result only.
If you can't get that to pass, then a regression is likely.
 
When I run into cases where there's a regression in overall run time, I'll run the unit benchmarks to see if anything stands out.
 
microbenchmarks?
 
yeah
 
6:36 PM
I need to have more of those.
 
These are fine for catching optimizations fails by the compiler. I recently noticed that the latest ICC fucked up one of my micro-optimization hacks. And it led to a noticeable global slowdown. I actually caught that in VTune before resorting to the benchmarks. But they would've showed up in the benchmarks as well.
The ones I really hate are the memory ones. Because those have "unseen" spill overs. Whereas run-time can roughly be added up. IOW, a regression in a unit benchmark likely translate to a regression in the overall thing (regardless of whether its measureable).
But shit involving memory is much harder.
If you optimize a function to be faster at the cost of more memory bandwidth usage. You may make that function faster. But it will slow down everything else that's bandwidth-bound. Thus increase in overall time.
 
Yeah.
 
@StackedCrooked I do that too. Mostly manually though.
The one I've been trying to solve for the past month is along similar lines.
Basically I have a superoptimizer that runs through all the different parameters and picks the best one for each operation.
 
-1
Q: What are the Pros and Cons of java?

Pat8I was wondering what the pros and cons of using Java are and if this would be a question asked in an interview for an entry level java position or an internship?

 
I recently added a bunch of new parameters to the mix. That way the super-optimizer has more to choose from and pick the best.
In the end the addition of the new parameters led to a superoptimizer output that was 3% slower than what it was before. 3% is well over my alarm threshold.
 
6:42 PM
@Mysticial Performance of the system as a whole is what counts in the end. So I find benchmarking that to be the most important. Microbenchmarks are more like a debug tool.
@Mysticial So it picked the wrong parameters?
 
@StackedCrooked no idea
The parameters it picked are significantly different between the old and the new. So it's not like I can go down VTune and compare function-by-function to see what went wrong.
The most likely explanation is that the superoptimizer benchmark is not representative of the real thing.
So it's optimizing for the wrong thing.
I've had multiple cases where I added new parameters. But all those parameters were slow. So the super-optimizer threw them all out. That's fine.
 
I often find that performance of the program differs between runs. So I run the program, perform the test mutiple times and get the same result. Then I restart the program, and the test results are same within that run, but different from the previous program instance.
 
Likewise, I've had cases where new parameters were significantly faster. The superoptimizer completely changed the new parameter table. Result was much faster. That's also fine.
@StackedCrooked I see that a lot at work. One of the cases resolved to where in the L3 a particular cacheline mapped to.
 
I have no idea how to debug this though.
Luckily it's not a huge issue.
 
Because it takes 48 hours to run the "guided" superoptimizer (where I manually throw away parameters that are unlikely to be useful beforehand), each iteration of testing takes a long time. So I'm thinking of modifying it to just run once with all the parameters. Dump them into a .csv where I can open up in Excel and try my own combinations of selections.
 
6:53 PM
Wow, 48 hours is a really long time.
 
@StackedCrooked There's more than 10000 parameters. Each run for a minimum of 4 seconds.
 
If a parameter is really bad, then it shouldn't take a long test to detect that, does it?
@Mysticial Oh.
Wtf, 10000 parameters?
 
I don't know exactly how many there are. But there is more than 10000 since that's the default limit of the Windows cmd window scroll back.
 
What kind of parameters are they?
 
@StackedCrooked First, there are all the algorithmic stuff. What algorithm to choose. What partitions to make. Then for each of those, there's all the low level stuff like what block size to use, when to split the cache. How much explicit cache to use.
 
6:56 PM
Wow.
 
So the number of "options" grows exponentially to the number of parameters.
So keep it from getting out of hand, I manually limit the range of many of the parameters.
 
So it basically tries to optimize the program for the underlying hardware?
 
yeah
 
That's neat.
 
The problem now is that because I'm literally throwing everything at it, I get what I get from the superoptimizer.
Without easily seeing why it turned out the way it did.
Sure, there are some recurring patterns.
The "explicit cache" size parameter tends to top out at a constant ratio relative to some cache level. Once the algorithm reaches a point where it needs to go up to the next level, some crazy shit happens before it "jumps" and "converges" to the next level.
Sort like the Earth's magnetic field during a reversal.
 
7:00 PM
lol
 
So because of this super-optimizer, gone are the days where a small optimization can cause massive differences in overall performance.
It all gets fed into the table of inputs. And a new optimization might rewrite a few entries of the output table where the new optimization applies.
But I've never had a regression by adding new parameters until now.
@Borgleader I guess that lasted a bit longer than I expected. 14 min.
 
@Mysticial So it's because some parameters perform better individually, but due to their memory bandwidth overhead they hinder total system performance? (As you mentioned earlier?)
 
In a way, this superoptimizer that I've been relying on for so many years has some parallels with training a neural network. And it's possible that it's suffering from over-fitting from the overflow of input possibilities.
@StackedCrooked I don't know yet. The superoptimizer is supposed to capture bandwidth pressure as well.
 
Personally I would focus on mainstream hardware (Intel) and just optimize for that.
But I suppose that's not as cool as what you're doing :)
 
I made this superoptimizer so that it does it all for me. Because even on mainstream hardware, there are drastic differences in what optimal is. Easily more than 30% difference from using an improper table.
 
7:10 PM
I see.
Btw, recently tested our software on an Epyc server. It was rather disappointing. Couldn't achieve full line rate using small network packets.
We also tested a cheap Intel CPU and it performed flawlessly.
It didn't have as many cores though.
 
haha
 
Also the AMD chip was weird. It's really 4 chips glued together, and in Linux it's represented as 4 numa nodes.
I tried spreading the work between those nodes but that only made it worse.
 
This is a throughput thing and not latency right?
 
Yeah it's throughput. However, we test maximum packet rate. So smallest packet size (60 byte). There's a per-packet overhead, so testing with small packets puts more stress on memory bandwidth.
A 10G NIC should be able to transmit 14.88 million packets per second (67.2 ns per packet).
With the AMD we only got 80% of that.
 
That 20% made the difference between dropping and not dropping?
 
7:23 PM
It wasn't dropping them. It simply wasn't able to transmit them fast enough.
 
20% differences like that aren't unusual between obscure Intel and AMD components.
 
@StackedCrooked sounds like a driver not supporting NUMA properly
I suspect you'd see similar on server grade Intel hardware
 
The driver was the same as for the Intel CPU. (It's userspace IO.)
 
So the driver is shit? :)
 
The driver is not shit. I'm pretty sure of that.
 
7:25 PM
@StackedCrooked NUMA is still a factor, if the driver allocates memory or is running on a CPU on a different node....
 
It was a single CPU system.
 
userspace IO usually doesn't mean what people think it does
 
Ok, and it had numa nodes because of the AMD weirdness.
 
@StackedCrooked that's what I was getting at, I suspect if you tried it in a dual socket intel system it would have the same issue
 
@Mgetz Nope, because that's our current hardware.
And it performs fine.
However, we did find a regression when switching from Haswell to Broadwell.
 
7:27 PM
@Mysticial Yeah you're probably right, I suspect they are trying to detect NUMA wrong
 
@Mysticial. @Mgetz is it possible that a higher core count results in higher L3 latency? (Presumably a higher core count results in bigger distance to L3 cache...?)
 
@StackedCrooked Possible but that shouldn't affect a driver like that unless they are hard optimizing for a specific chip
most "userspace io" libraries aren't actually in userspace, they are actually better termed "userspace free" IO
 
user1804599
Henlo friend.
 
holy moly it's a rightfold!
4
 
@Mgetz The driver is DPDK's igb_uio driver, for what it's worth.
 
7:31 PM
@StackedCrooked I'd have to look and I can't be bothered
 
@Mgetz It uses a memory pool (from hugepages).
I'm pretty sure the driver is OK. Since Intel bets its reputation on it.
 
@StackedCrooked intel has a different memory manager and TLB implementation than AMD
 
Sure, maybe it's just that.
 
@StackedCrooked without using a kernel debugger and testing... who knows
 
But AMD is free to contribute its own drivers to the DPDK project. In fact it already has done so (for crypto stuff).
Anyway, the AMD was able to achieve line-rate using 128-byte packets. Which is good enough in practice.
 
user1804599
7:43 PM
What is TLB? Thread-local borage?
 
Don't pretend like you don't know.
 
user1804599
Oh it's a cache for address translation.
 
You know about virtual memory.
@rightfold Yep.
 
user1804599
I think address translation is a terrible idea.
 
Ell
translation lookaside buffer? hmm
 
7:45 PM
@rightfold What's a better idea?
 
user1804599
I would like a CPU that statically verifies the program before running it, to find access violatons.
 
user1804599
Then, no runtime checks are necessary.
 
@StackedCrooked there is someone on Raymond's blog that still rants that the loss of segments was a huge loss
 
@rightfold CPU? Not compiler?
 
user1804599
The kernel could do this verification instead, that would be OK.
 
7:46 PM
@rightfold see halting problem
 
@Mgetz Yeah. I was thinking the same.
 
user1804599
The halting problem is not relevant.
 
user1804599
By simply making access violations not part of the language, they cannot occur. This is related to proof by construction.
 
@rightfold Seems to me that pointer arithmetic using values only known at runtime makes it impossible to statically verify the correctness.
 
user1804599
For example, you cannot get an access violation in Python unless there are bugs in the interpreter or linked C libraries.
 
user1804599
7:48 PM
Then you may either remove pointer arithmetic, or statically track the arithmetic using e.g. refinement types, as in ATS.
 
@rightfold But, if you delegate this job to the kernel, then what you end up with is virtual memory, or something very similar, not?
 
@rightfold See Rust, you can't actually have a language that does that 100%
 
user1804599
No, you just verify that the program won't go wrong, and then you can run it with all safety checks removed.
 
@rightfold even rust has out of bounds checks
 
user1804599
Yes, but ATS doesn't, and it's completely safe.
 
7:50 PM
@rightfold How can you check that?
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked Arithmetic follows certain rules. For example, if n + 1 < m, then n < m.
 
user1804599
By tracking these rules, you can statically check properties about runtime values.
 
Ell
@StackedCrooked attach proofs to your programs
he is advocating for quite an ideal
 
@rightfold But what about n + x and x is only known at runtime?
 
@rightfold that only works if you know the possible values of n and m at compile time
otherwise... halting problem
 
user1804599
7:52 PM
@Mgetz That's not necessary, which is the nice part! You can do runtime checks to generate compile-time proofs, for example:
 
@Ell Yeah, but that's compile-time checking. @rightfold seems to be talking about checking a program that's already compiled.
 
@rightfold I understand what you're saying... but mathmatically it's impossible
 
user1804599
Say you have a type Array n String, which means the value is an array of n strings.
 
user1804599
Now you have a function String index(unsigned n, Array m String xs, n < m proof). The third argument is a proof that n is smaller than m. n and m need not be known at compile time; all you need to know is that n is smaller than m.
 
@rightfold So n is a user-input value. How do you prove that I won't select n to be greater than m.
 
user1804599
7:55 PM
You can produce one either from constants, or at runtime:

optional<(n < m)> check(unsigned n, unsigned m);
 
@rightfold Well, that still requires programming language support. The kernel can't do this on executable binary files.
 
user1804599
(n<m) proof = check(n, array.length);
if (proof) {
    index(n, array, *proof);
} else {
    throw "out of bounds!";
}
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked It can if the language in the binaries has this feature. Of course, it won't work for x86.
 
Ell
@StackedCrooked oh
I misunderstood
 
Meanwhile virtual memory is hardware accelerated. So it does a pretty good job. ... Erm, if you ignore meltdown/spectre, that is. Heh.
 
7:59 PM
@StackedCrooked it has some issues... like page faults and prefetching, which can be painful even in a world where Meltdown and Spectere didn't exist
 
user1804599
I wonder how fast programs could be if a CPU were designed by knowledgeable CPU designers from scratch without any need for backwards compatibility with anything.
 
@rightfold about as fast as they are now on RISC-V
 
@rightfold You mean ARM? Itanium?
It's an interesting question though. I wonder too.
 
Ell
@rightfold newer ARM cpus are pretty fast
 
user1804599
Nice!
 
8:02 PM
But I think the programming language plays a big role. And C isn't designed for maximum performance (because of it's aliasing stuff).
 
user1804599
C is probably one of the reasons CPUs have to do so much work.
 
I see!
 
user1804599
The programmer thinks in terms of data dependencies, then writes it down in terms of linear flow and mutations. Then, the compiler tries to discover the data dependencies, optimizes that and turns it back into linear flow and mutations. Then, the CPU tries to discover the data dependencies and schedules based on that, with all sorts of horrible edge-cases.
 
Dunno if Rust does a better job than C when it comes to aliasing.
 
user1804599
Why don't the programmers take the data dependencies directly to the scheduler?
 
user1804599
8:06 PM
In Rust you cannot normally have two aliases to one mutable location, and it does set the restrict annotation on all mutable references when generating LLVM IR, so it probably does a slightly better job if the C programmer does not use restrict.
 
Ell
@rightfold you don't know all the data dependencies statically, for one
some ILP must be discovered at runtime
 
Gotta admit the Intel CPUs excel at performing the dirty work really fast.
Actually, I saw some great performance increases from profile-guided optimization.
 
user1804599
PGO.
 
Ell
What happens when the JIT itsself has non-static dependencies? :P
@rightfold it can only do so much though
 
user1804599
JIT doesn't change anything because it is not different from an AOT as far as the CPU is concerned.
 
8:12 PM
@Ell It recompiles at runtime periodically,.
(I think.)
 
Ell
I suppose there's nothing stopping it recompiling itsself
 
user1804599
Tracing JIT compilers do recompile code.
 
user1804599
Some JIT compilers even hot swap running loops, e.g. Perl 6.
 
Ell
maybe JITs are the solution to the problems with VLIW CPUs then hmm
 
user1804599
brb I'm taking a shit
 
9:11 PM
the latest draft seemingly allows to qualify structured bindings with static, but it’s not quite clear if any particular meaning is intended seeing as that doesn't extend to extern—it’s overall quite confusing
 
9:31 PM
@Mysticial lol, Tate no Yuusha has gone full final fantasy this latest episode /cc @StackedCrooked
 
@ScarletAmaranth fuck, I'm still at work a couple more hours.
 
at least you can enjoy the wait! :P
 
fuck you :)
 
 
2 hours later…
11:39 PM
@rightfold The presence of dark silicon hints that their won't be many advantages. At present, from a thermal perspective, only a fraction of a CPU is actually in use. AVX downclocking hints that even with current designs, the thermal envelop will be rapidly exceeded. You might be able to replace the legacy parts with better cooling?
Has anybody noticed an uptick of SO career related spam? For example, I today I received two solicitations for jobs in the EU. I don't live in the EU.
 
You can change the setting to not receive those emails.
Recently I have noticed the lacking of email from google play, then I remembered that I have turned 'receiving emails' from google play to 'no'.
I am about to do the same with apple if they keep on sending me irrelevant information.
I routinely go though settings of various accounts to unsubscribe.
Sometimes it does not work, then I manually reply a spam with 'stop'. Magically, that worked once.
 
@Ell In a limiting case out-of-order execution might be viewed as a kind of JIT? This guy has a very good discussion of the issue, softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/a/279395/50146 .
It merely says that the burden of indicating data dependency now falls on the compiler. That's fine; the compiler already has that information, so it is straightforward for the compiler to comply. The problem is that the CPU is still going to idle for tens to hundreds of cycles over a memory access. In other words, it externalizes a secondary responsibility, while still failing to cope with the primary responsibility.
The real architecture of the future are barrel processors and their current realization in GPUs
 

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