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00:31
In the Solar System, a planet is said to be inferior or interior with respect to another planet if its orbit lies inside the other planet's orbit around the Sun. In this situation, the latter planet is said to be superior to the former. In the reference frame of the Earth, in which the terms were originally used, the inferior planets are Mercury and Venus, while the superior planets are Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune. Dwarf planets like Ceres or Pluto and most asteroids are 'superior' in the sense that they almost all orbit outside the orbit of Earth. == History == These terms ...
Say no to discrimination against planets! </trollololo>
01:32
Feel the need to spread more images of my favourite anti-heroine <3
This is the face of a rebel - stand against authority for 20 years, authority tried to auction off her house 3 times ... and not able to. Go hoarder, go!!!
 
3 hours later…
04:34
The Australian government has banned conspiracy theorist David Icke from entering the country next month for a planned speaking tour.

Among the bizarre claims made by Icke, a former footballer and BBC sports presenter, is that the world is controlled by a cabal of giant shape-shifting reptiles.
I thought my thoughts were pretty original. Turns out, there is always someone who is more superior!
04:53
I searched for the term 'Asian maid' on youtube. OMG, I was shocked by the results.
 
2 hours later…
06:39
What frivolous features do we absolutely need in a new programing language?
C+ would benefit from figuring out how to interop dynamic memory and constexpr
Also somebody kill this
0
Q: Programming features missing in C++ and Java

GeekWhat are the programming features that are missing in C++ and Java ? For eg. You can't do recursive programming in QBasic ? You can't dynamically allocate memory in QBasic. What would be the good to have features in C++, Java. I think Lisp Programmers will be able to add a few.

user7659542
07:00
What could be worse than working at a company filled with juniors who get stuck during weeks due to a segfault or compilation error in their code?
user7659542
those people got to the point where they are considering to remove functionalities of the product because they don't know what is causing the segfault in their code
@traducerad grad school, today I worked from 9:00 to midnight, everything I did or didn't exists only in the minds of my supervisors. Also I get paid $~30k a year (from that).
user7659542
@Mikhail I don't mind working long hours when I am surrounded by competent people. That s why I like startups
user7659542
@Mikhail your pay is quite painful
Everything is quite painful, but this is not my allotted day of the week to complain.
 
3 hours later…
09:35
@Mikhail what frivolous features are important enough to make a new programming language for?
also, make sure not to confuse libraries as part of the language
for example from that post:
> RegExp as part of the standard library
this is definitely not a language feature
@Mikhail I mean, it's true
09:51
it depends on what kind of problem you want to solve
or I misunderstand "data structure libraries"
nwp
nwp
10:06
@Mikhail I was about to comment that some of those are not true and then saw it's from 2009 when the answer was correct.
Interesting to see that they actually implemented some of those things.
 
3 hours later…
13:18
The better I get at tooling, the more bugs I find T_T
@Morwenn this is good
@Wietlol I maintain a sorting algorithms library, and as is it's pretty much useless and doesn't solve a real issue
@Mgetz what isn't good is that I've bugs
I managed to setup the Windows build environment on Travis, and all my tests involving a Schwartzian transform adapter segfault
@Morwenn Every piece of code has bugs, I'm pretty sure the bog standard C Hello World has UB
Which is rather interesting considering they don't segfault at home with my MinGW-w64
@Morwenn printf("hello world"); is technically UB, also slow because it still has to be parsed for formatting tokens that aren't actually there
13:23
@Morwenn every code has bugs, the code that doesnt just hasnt found them yet
There's « I'm UB but I virtually work everywhere » bugs, and then there's « lol, segfault » bugs x)
except if your code's specification is by implementation, then I assume it has no bugs
since, bugs are inconsistencies between the specification and the implementation
@Morwenn oh agreed, that doesn't mean it's not UB however. And it could fail on any implementation at any time. Or clang could just decide to optimize away the entire program (I think they should do this)
nwp
nwp
Why is printf("hello world"); UB?
what is UB?
nwp
nwp
13:27
@Wietlol This.
@nwp printf without formatting tokens and arguments is technically UB IIRC because they are technically required by the underlying code.
I C
printf without formatting tokens is pretty much defined behavior afaik
@Wietlol technically still no, it just happens to work and compiler writers and library maintainers haven't broken it.
the defined behavior is that it takes the string, parses it, for which the result is the same as the input, then prints it
it's not a defined behavior more to the point by any implementation
@Wietlol except by contract it requires minimum two arguments
13:30
... and it ignores the other arguments
again, that's an implementation detail
one that happens to be happy... but is still just a detail
wouldnt a minimum of 2 arguments make it a compiler error?
@Wietlol no, because varargs
also C
which allows for some weird things
then "minimum two arguments" is wrong
@Wietlol no
13:32
it is either "minimum one argument" or "always 2 arguments"
since varargs can be 0 or more
@Wietlol so for legacy reasons that's not the case
but they basically represent a collection
nwp
nwp
@Mgetz Where does it say that?
@Wietlol no they don't
in most languages varargs are just syntactic sugar
13:33
@Wietlol in c and C++ they are very much not
they have a very real impact on how the method is called
@Wietlol my specification is currently rough description in the doc + implementation + sometimes references to research papers, blog posts or other projects + tests x)
this is because of a) legacy b) varargs can take literally any type
nwp
nwp
Can you be more specific? I have been looking at that and can't find that requirement.
I can't provide a resource but can confirm I've read that several times
That said varargs might soon get a small modification
@nwp so there are two parts to it: A) calling printf without any formatting specifiers B) not passing any arguments. I've heard arguments both ways but as best I can tell passing a string without specifiers to printf is still technically UB due to the way varargs works
specifically the vprintf functions require that "At least one formatting specifier" be in the string en.cppreference.com/w/c/io/vfprintf
so in theory you could implement printf such that the initial call scans for specifiers and if it fails to find any calls puts
but nobody does
13:38
The committee recently approved that void foo(int, ...) is fine but void foo(int...) shouldn't be
regardless people should just use puts if they need to print unformatted strings
it's faster, and doesn't have to worry about any of this garbage
nwp
nwp
I don't see what vprintf has to do with anything and I can't find anything about printf("string literal"); being UB.
puts is not a generic replacement because it forces a newline at the end.
@nwp it has everything to do with this, because literally every *printf function is implemented around the vprintf version
nwp
nwp
That's an implementation issue. The standard guarantees it to work.
@nwp I'm going to agree to disagree
nwp
nwp
13:45
No, seriously. If the standard says it must work and the implementation crashes that's a bug, not UB.
ok, you are free to continue to use it that way
I will avoid it
nwp
nwp
13:58
More importantly it means compilers are not allowed to remove your code because you used printf("lol");. If they are allowed to remove code based on their own implementation being UB then they may as well make int UB and optimize everything away.
Why use printf when you have {fmt} though
@Morwenn because people are targeting older compilers or just hate C++ features eyeroll
nwp
nwp
14:14
std::wfstream f(L"file.txt"); no longer compiles.
Now I have to do a bazillion little changes in old code :(
@nwp why?
nwp
nwp
I have no idea. Apparently the wide version of fstream no longer accepts file names in wide string format which makes no sense.
I guess my application no longer supports non-ASCII file names and paths.... This sucks.
@nwp which compiler?
nwp
nwp
gcc 5.8 locally and coliru.
nwp
nwp
14:18
Also cppreference says it's hardcoded to take a char *, not a CharT *.
@nwp ah yeah std::filesystem::path::value_type is only available on windows
I'd suggest using a std::filesystem::path then
which is supported
@Mgetz oh, then they deserve to suffer
@Morwenn agree hence the eyeroll
I'm sad for people forced to use derelict compilers though :x
why is there not a std::filesystem::path literal?
14:21
because nobody ever proposed one
(actually I'm not sure)
probably because it's implicitly convertible to and from std::string
which has caused its shared of LWD issues
nwp
nwp
Can't use C++17, compiler too old. Can't update compiler, no modern 32 bit compiler available.
@nwp then use UTF-8?
nwp
nwp
Windows doesn't like UTF-8.
14:25
@nwp which compiler on windows?
nwp
nwp
Qt's mingw gcc 5.8.
then why would it have suddenly broken?
nwp
nwp
I guess I could look for proper mingw and spend a couple of days trying to make Qt find it.
nwp
nwp
I don't know. I guess wfstream taking a wstring was never supported and the standard library just provided some extras that were removed.
14:27
@nwp yeah I've always used the boost wrappers until recently
that took care of that for me
nwp
nwp
Ooooh, they have gcc 7.3 32 bit now. I'm gonna try that.
That should also allow C++17.
@nwp why are you stuck on 32bit?
nwp
nwp
Because third party libraries.
The funny thing is they can't make a 64 bit version because we are using the 32 bit version.
Oh, I remember.
chicken and egg?
@nwp just ask for the x64 versions?
nwp
nwp
14:31
It's not that mingw gcc 7.3 32 bit doesn't exist. That has always existed. It's that there is no Qt distribution for that compiler.
So no C++17 for me after all.
that doesn't seem to be the case
you could also compile Qt yourself
nwp
nwp
They only support 1 mingw.
Also marvel at the free-hand drawn perfect upper line.
2/10 not a circle
nwp
nwp
rip
I probably compiled with msvc before.
14:41
@nwp MSVC isn't bad
hasn't been for awhile
still ICEs on my library x)
but Clang ICEd on an evolution that I eventually dropped
And GCC ICEs when I try to use libstdc++'s debug mode
I need to try the latest MSVC build tools though, maybe some things were fixed
nwp
nwp
Inb4 "can't fix because that would be an ABI break".
They always try to fix ICEs though
nwp
nwp
I used to be so proud compiling cleanly with -std=c++14 -Wall -Werror -Wno-unknown-pragmas. Now I have a million narrowing conversion errors :D
> /home/travis/.travis/functions: fork: Cannot allocate memory
Not a good day today.
-Wsign-conversion
I didn't even try to fix that one
nwp
nwp
15:03
> `error: narrowing conversion of '...' from 'std::array<int, 256u>::value_type {aka int}' to 'double'
Welcome to 32 bit land.
Although that doesn't make sense in 32 bit either.
Try converting an application from C... sooo many cases where they were using string literals improperly
nwp
nwp
> error: "_SCL_SECURE_NO_WARNINGS" redefined
I forgot how much fun Windows development was.
@nwp aren't you static_casting those anyway?
@nwp I cheat and let it automatically use templates
to let it use the secure methods internally
nwp
nwp
I was not. I see no reason to cast an int to a double. Implicit conversions should be perfectly fine for that.
On the bright side I can now press Ctrl+Enter and get an auto-fix.
Never open old code.
apparently that's deprecated now
15:11
@Mgetz isn't that only about enum types?
@ratchetfreak trying to figure that out, I'd have to check the standard for confirmation. But it looks like that's what MSVC is warning about
because it looks like int is getting promoted to long long prior to the double conversion
nwp
nwp
(that's from gcc 5.3)
what word best describes going back up a recursive function ?
nwp
nwp
And apparently min_element(std_array.begin(), std_array.end()); no longer compiles via ADL, it now requires the std::.
The restriction is only about enum types vs. floating point types yeah
15:18
well without seeing the code I can't comment
other than to misread cppref
It's among a series of small deprecations of operations of fundamental types that were discussed around operator<=>
@nwp I'm surprised this worked through ADL considering that std_array.begin() returns a raw pointer
nwp
nwp
Apparently it returned a proper iterator on msvc.
lol x)
I don't think std::array can even have standard-conforming debug iterators
oh wait, it's actually supposed to return proper iterators, I totally misread that one
@Morwenn I'm pretty sure MSVC isn't standard conforming in debug mode
but said proper iterators can be raw pointers x)
it's how libc++ implements them at least
Moral of the story: don't make a function with an overload taking pointers and an overload taking std::array iterators
15:26
@Morwenn shouldn't it take a range anyway?
@Mgetz you wish
some algorithms taking three iterators (e.g. std::inplace_merge) IMO don't gain that much from ranges
std::inplace_merge(first, middle, end) has something to it that makes std::inplace_merge(range, middle) feel just slightly off :p
@Morwenn Or 2 ranges that must not overlap
That sounds even worse because you'll probably have to get the middle iterator somehow and generate two ranges from it
When writing sorting algorithm I often find myself running algorithms on sub-sequences so of course I've got a positive view of iterators :p
16:07
@Mysticial have you looked at the RISC-V vector extensions yet?
16:31
> this behaviour will be the default in Python 4.0
breaking changes again?
@Mgetz I might've heard about it at HotChips.
16:51
@Mysticial They look interesting but honestly I'm thinking for most use cases where that would be super useful (e.g. N > 100k-500k) the cost to just shift to GPU is easy to overcome at that point for the speed boost. SIMD shines in that smaller more cache friendly zone where memory bandwidth isn't an issue.
That said for certain workloads the cost to make that effective because of GPU manufacturers is annoying...
Because why should I have to shell out a couple of thousand for DP perf at reasonable rates... except the Nvidia tax
I really really hope AMD starts to take back marketshare
 
2 hours later…
18:32
does anyone do code pairing at work? Where one engineer switches with the other while coding something up? By switch I mean one supervises while the other codes?
if so, is this a regular thing
@Rick It was not a practice at any of the companies I worked for.
There might be benefit in exploring a problem together with another person. But that only happens occasionally. I wouldn't like it to be an enforced policy.
at worst it cuts your work-power in half tho
so I'm guessing it is not considered a good strategy among engineering teams
also I am not sure if you meant Tate no Yuusha or Yakusoku no Neverland @Mysticial but the later is quite excellent, thanks for the tip!
18:38
He meant Tate no Yuusha.
But Neverland is also good.
Tate no Yuusha I watched all the available episodes but so far it seems like the bog standard Log Horizon to me
not particularly interesting so far imho, although the king twist is kinda fun
I suppose some people are immune to cute demihumans.
@Rick we do driver/Navigator
and yes it's a regular thing
@ScarletAmaranth in our experience that's not the case, problems tend to get solved much faster, the hours per issue rate is closer to 1.5
but the actual time to deliverable is much lower
Overall I'd say pair projects tend to see much lower reactive rates too, so that makes up for the paired hours
@ScarletAmaranth I recommended the 1st one. lol
The 2nd is on my to-do list.
18:58
the rating is a little weird because by default it sorts by... the most recommendations or something like that? and the rating x/10 is then ordered a little differently
nevertheless, Yakusoku no Neverland is a lot of fun!
Amazing number of people don't realize that SIMD doesn't scale at some point due to memory bandwidth
and then they crap on GPUs
@Rick if you're replying to something please use the little arrow on the right of the post you're replying to
Thank you in advance
@Mgetz So slower but more effective. Would this strategy also work where the problem might be not clearly understood? For example, would you ever pair a Mathematician and a software engineer?
you can also edit posts, from a little drop down on the lft
@Rick potentially? depends on the desired outcome?
Do I want to teach the mathmatician to code or do I want to have them walk a SE through very complicated math?
either way I'd want a numerics expert to examine the code
because IEEE 754 has a loooot of pain in it
@Mysticial I wonder if Intel will ever just include some HBM2 as an on-package cache for AVX512? Honestly given most larger workloads it would make sense.
That said they might just do their best to force that over to their new GPUs they are working on
 
1 hour later…
20:22
@Mgetz I suppose it depends on the CPU vs memory load of the algorithm. If the algorithm involves a lot of CPU intensive operations like sin/cos/sqrt/... then the CPU might to become the bottleneck (even when using SSE/AVX).
And if memory is the bottleneck, but only after switching from scalar to SIMD, then it still is a net win.
@Mgetz Not sure what's the point I'm trying to make. Anyway, stay cool! :)
20:40
@fredoverflow: A dog comes home, sees food in one bowl, water in the other bowl, and says "someone put food and water in my bowls. That person must be God." A cat comes home, sees food in one bowl, water in the other bowl, and says "someone put food and water in my bowls. I must be God."
@Mgetz I'd say it also needs to go higher than that. More memory bandwidth.
I also want to see SATA/SAS cards that utilize the full PCIe 3.0 x16 slots.
21:02
@Mysticial AFAIK HBM2 is currently the bandwidth king.
@Mgetz But if it's anything less than 100GB in size, it's too small. :)
@StackedCrooked most of those are implemented in software on any modern system x87 really isn't used anymore. So usually Data size and setup time are the determiners.
@Mysticial The nice part about a GPU is that it's 'slow' enough (1.8GHz seems to be about max at the moment) that you can bank swap in that data without worrying other than IO perf from disk. The throughput is good enough it makes most CPUs cry too. But yeah Intel needs bigger and faster caches.
@StackedCrooked the point I'm making is that the usual pain point of most SIMD algorithms is memory bandwidth.
Yeah. It's been like this for many years now.
I don't know if it's a solvable problem or not.
21:11
@StackedCrooked Generally there have been two approaches, fast local caches near the package of fast ram or just giving up and going to GPU
because GPUs inherently trade upgradability for bandwidth
arent gpus really cheap nowadays because there were a ton made for mining and mining is now suddenly much less famous?
I don't understand how GPUs solve the memory bandwidth problem. If GPUs are super-fast at computing stuff then they still need to pull in the data really fast. How is that different from the CPU?
Can the GPU pull in data faster than the CPU?
@StackedCrooked they aren't fast as I mentioned above, they cap out at about 1.8GHz. But they do have insane throughput
@StackedCrooked My guess is that they don't solve it. The applications that are suited for GPUs are the applications that don't need memory. Therefore there's selection bias.
@Mysticial no... that's not the case, GPU applications usually need MORE memory
(and higher bandwidth)
21:15
@Mgetz 100's of GB of memory?
@Mysticial Yes but you'd probably do multi-GPU for that nvidia.com/en-us/design-visualization/quadro-desktop-gpus/#
see the 8000 series
48Gb of ram
I'd argue that my argument still stands to some level. Embarrassingly parallel tasks tend to migrate to GPUs. Such tasks also tend to use less memory (which is why they are embarrassingly parallel in the first place.) Large memory-intensive CPU tasks like databases, massive compilation, are not embarrassingly parallel so fewer people consider them for GPUs.
Sure there will be exceptions. But in the general case.
@StackedCrooked tasks have a high memory locality. For example consider convolution. Every pixel sees a neighborhood that is almost shared by the neighboring pixel. Also they act like a barralel processor, where a call to global memory sleeps the executing thread. So, the quoted terabytes per second bandwidth is only for the fast local memory. On the other hand most tasks have good data locality.
Nice topic you're talking about here. I work with some AI stuff, and we use these babies: nvidia.com/en-us/data-center/tesla-v100 . The aren't in the 100's of GB range, sure, but we still top them out along with the 96GBs of memory of the servers they're on, when training models.
21:24
@Mysticial That aside.. the point I was making was more about SIMD vs. GPU... and to me the trade off right now is purely about the latency of the PCI bus on most systems.
@CássioRenan if you're willing to make your own PCBs my understanding is that Nvidia will sell you the cores with some strings attached.
@Mikhail Literally had someone claim GPUs can't do reduce ops well today, I laughed and pointed to Anti-aliasing
@Mikhail TIL about convolution and barralel processors. So I can't really answer you intelligently. Maybe soon, once I've upgraded myself :)
@Mgetz that's awesome! Unfortunately we're mostly data scientists and developers with not a lot of experience on low level stuff. Making our own PCBs (And firmware for them, I guess) is definitely out of our knowledge range.
@StackedCrooked Basically GPUs are (relatively) slow but embarrassingly parallel for the most part
So gpus reduce instruction overhead as they have ops for many common image processing tasks. See the papers on texture memory.
@CássioRenan I doubt you'd bother unless you were building a computer for a very special application. That kind of funding usually only comes from sources that have major strings attached.
Three letter agencies and all
21:31
@Mgetz And in order to make it true they also rely on high memory locality, as you mentioned before.
If I understood correctly.
@StackedCrooked They assume it, but don't require it they also use special hardware to get around some of those issues. Some of the techniques are truly brain hurt for someone used to thinking procedural. Things like texture mapping data, or processing data as if they were vertices. Because there is special hardware to deal with parts of that.
That said compute shaders make that mostly non-painful
Its important to note that memory locality can be "forced" for example in the case of a prefix sum, you can prefetch the data. Today though there is a technique called the "kepler" shuffle which has absolutely no CPU analog.
There is also the technique of just not being memory efficient in order to be compute efficient
Also somebody should point out the price differential between NVIDIA and Intel hardware
Apr 24 '18 at 21:07, by Mikhail
http://www.irisa.fr/alf/downloads/collange/talks/collange_warp_synchronous_gpu17‌​.pdf
@Mikhail I could but I didn't drop a 10k 56core CPU like Linus did
last I checked even the top end Tesla or quadro cards were only a few thousand
and they come with RAM
21:44
1060 -> $300 2D FT in >5ms
E7-8860-> $5,000 2D FT in 20 ms
DP or SP?
single socket
I meant precision.
single precision
new GPUs are so fast, I'm basically out of a job/motivation to optimize for them
@Mysticial I was referencing DP costs
21:47
I believe urban dictionary has a differing opinion on what "DP" stands for
so the Quadro 8000 costs 10k
but comparable FLOPs from intel would cost you quite a bit more... and that's not including RAM
There are most cost efficient ways to get good double precision performance
of course... I'm going off the deep end
the 6000 is a lot cheaper
but has a lot less GDDR6
get two :-)
@Mikhail at 12.6k that's still a bargain for that much compute power
honestly at that point you'd probably NVLink them together anyway
22:48
tasks like training an ML model don't really require them to be linked with a fancy buss
The 1070s used to have the biggest bang for your buck
also don't use double precision, the only real use for it is in sloppy written CAD programs where repeatedly multiplying and dividing numbers needs to give you approximatly the same position
23:44
also nvlink is a pretty great branding, its pronounced "envy link"

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