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09:00 - 15:0015:00 - 00:00

15:01
I'm contemplating using a tiny chip to store the main system ram. I do love the irony of having a monstrously huge CPU that uses a tiny chip that has magnitudes more storage
Well, I think I'd struggle to make a single byte of memory small than a chip that offers like a MB of ram
@thecoshman a megabyte is a freaking lot
do you have any experience in building digital circuits at all?
Well, best you don't even think about how small a stick of like 8GB ddr4 is compared to what I'm going to end up :D
Yeah, I've done digital electronics before, but not at the scale I'm planning here
I'm not really sure what you're trying to achieve tbh
you can buy separate RAM, clock, storage and CPU components
and hook them together
that's hard enough actually
which is why most modern processors are SoCs
15:06
I don't know, I just see it as a cool thing to build
what do you want to hook it up to?
And I definitely want to build the CPU myself
you need a way to confirm it works after all
Probably wouldn't be hooked up to much at all really
how will you know that it works then?
I'd probably build the entire assembly first and use a ready-made SoC
I have been pwnd.
Probably look to use a pi to do bulk interface with it
sigh
@wilx get with the times man
15:08
since I've discovered ATTinys the world is a better place
@BartekBanachewicz as a first generation? I might do that yeah
they're cheap enough for throw-away stuff that still has my own code on them
Well, I have a pi already
yeah but Pi is huge
it's not realtime and it's certainly not something you want to pack into something small to leave it there
I'm planning to make this out of individual transistors
15:09
and it takes forever to boot
@thecoshman how many?
Yeah, the boot time is an issue
according to a random google search
a very small SoC takes about 10k logic gates, or about 40k transistors
@BartekBanachewicz Well, I think last time I looked at this, I had a figure of something like nearly 100 per register. But I was using a very simple sram design
so how many in total?
simple transistors are pretty cheap, but soldering all that crap...
Individually yeah, but they add up
15:11
well if you go SMD it'll make much more sense
Plus I need to design boards for it
Yeah, SMD is tempting
with SMD you can get them below 0.01$ per transistor
but I think I looked at and unless I get really tiny ones, through holes are comparable price
so a few hundred bucks
@thecoshman I doubt it, and through-holes will take much more space
Yeah, it'll not be a cheap thing to make overall
15:13
@thecoshman and it's not really guaranteed to work
so you might end up with a couple hundred bucks in a blob
I've yet to spend much time looking at the cost of them
Well, I plane to make things in small modular boards
so like, say I fuck up the design for the adder, I just need to replace that part
and I can hook it up to the pi to verify it
you'll need a dedicated logic analyzer
Well, depends how complex a thing I want to test at once
and most probably an oscilloscope would help once you'll need to debug it
If I buy that stuff, it's planning to fail :P
15:16
yeah I don't really get it
What part?
if you want to play with CPU design, a simulator will allow you to focus on it
if you want to solder a lot, there are funnier projects with a lot of LEDs
This will have lots of blinky LEDs for sure :D
I just think it'll be a cool thing to have built
@thecoshman you can get the blinky LED cool stuff with e.g. ready shift registers
and you can build the ALU with IC gates
that's gonna be annoying enough, believe me
That's because the IC gates are badly designed :P
I'm kinda inspired by the megaprocessor
15:23
@thecoshman yeah, saw that.
Though he's designed that so it very clearly marks out all the logic gates and stuff
So spacing things out for that make it a lot bigger
@thecoshman I'm not sure about that "a lot" thing
I don't think I'll go that far, and I think I'll allow myself to make use of daughter boards for parts
@Mgetz Yes they are. :)
Look at that picture of an adder, I'd say if you didn't have all that space around the 'logic gates' you could get it half the size
Plus he has it on display boards with long runs of bus cables connecting it together
16:24
@thecoshman The computer is a bunch of panels, if you put the panels together you get a much smaller cube.
16:57
@BartekBanachewicz Sup
@BartekBanachewicz I think he's right. The CDC 6000 series computers were built with roughly similar technology, but designed to be about as compact as possible for that technology. They were in the vicinity of the same physical size, but drastically more capable (60 bit ALU, ~megabyte of RAM, 12-bit peripheral processor, etc.)
Just for example, Seymour Cray invented the first forerunner of the modern DIMM:
17:40
Camera manufacturer says there is no link that goes faster than 1.3 GB/s. I think he's saying there is no PCIe card that has more than a 2 tap CameraLink (TM) connection. I suspect there is some money in making an Infiniband connected camera.
18:26
@Mikhail ...or just a 4/8/16 lane CameraLink.
18:36
@JerryCoffin The physical packaging of CameraLink is also screwed up. Its thicker than an VGA. Every three years we've had to replace the cables or card due to signal integrity issues.
Also the underlying reason nobody does more than 2 camera link connections is that the CameraLink protocol assumes full control of the sensor. In the 2 tap camera link case, the sensor is actually bifurcated. For example, in the Hamamatsu Orca Flash, you have two horizontal sensors, "stacked" on top of each other.
But its still kinda bullshit that you can get a computer with terabytes of RAM, but have no way to feed camera data into it.
@CatPlusPlus you finally used Terra
after all the years I spent here praising it
@JerryCoffin heh
19:08
@BartekBanachewicz I remembered it exists and I randomly thought about seeing if it can do EFI on its own
It'd be better if it wasn't fucking Lua though
So bad
@CatPlusPlus yeah well
@CatPlusPlus it's as low-level as C, of course it can do it
the only alternative is to wait until I make my own language
sooooo
@CatPlusPlus also again, compared to any other preprocessing alternatives for native languages, Lua is still miles ahead
Eh
@BartekBanachewicz Well we had to patch the compiler so :vv:
19:30
@BartekBanachewicz Not the only alternative. He could wait for Puppy to finish Wide...
[Sorry, but seeing @CatPlusPlus reminded me of old ancient days.]
@JerryCoffin I'll admit that I stopped working on it because I simply could no longer stand working in C++
@Puppy Better to have a sit/stand desk, so when you can't stand it any more you can sit down (and vice versa).
@Puppy can relate
@CatPlusPlus yeah been there as well, it's still buggy as shit
@JerryCoffin it's almost like it's 2012 again
and I'm here all excited to learn the new C++ standard
except it's not and we're all older, not really wiser and I'm pondering moving to TypeScript
19:53
@BartekBanachewicz At least it's an improvement on JavaScript. I don't want to move to JavaScript. I want to move on it. Specifically, I want to have a bowel movement on it.
@JerryCoffin javascript is horrendous, and it's well-known
TS, otoh, seems to be fixing quite a lot
20:53
meh
I have quite some experience in TypeScript and, well, it's better than many alternatives but not what I would describe as "good"
the maintainers are fuckin' stupid and the tools are really bad
they made something better than JS and then just sat around making things worse
@BartekBanachewicz
for instance, JS modules are full of shit in both design and implementation
the type system and build systems are fucked and they aren't fixing them
@Puppy so what's a better alternative?
for say an RTS game
RTS game developed in a scripting language?
21:09
@Mikhail no shit
well, if you absolutely must write it in the browser, and you can't use WebAssembly, then there's probably nothing better
I kinda like Dart. It has familiar syntax.
Haven't used it though.
@BartekBanachewicz the 'scripting' language I'd use for more or less any 'game logic' would be Lua :P
not certain about the maturity of WA but I doubt you're using it for a professional project anyway
21:22
@Puppy WA?
webassembly
@StackedCrooked why not? much easier to test out behavior and stuff
@Puppy nope, I don't
then I'd recommend don't
23 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@Puppy so what's a better alternative?
try and find something less shit like C#
21:27
C# is meh and boring
@BartekBanachewicz Was thinking Starcraft / Age of Empires. But apparently that's not the scope.
if your intention is to enjoy things being pointlessly broken, Typescript is a better choice ;p
eh, being actually good to use and being exciting are practically polar opposites
Maybe the game engine is in something higher performing (C++ or C#), and the scripting language is for the game logic...
RTS games sound hard to make, independent of language, for example, GLEST and 0 A.D. have been going for years and almost made a game
I wouldn't write my game logic in script
principally because scripts are shit
If you're using C# then there's zero reason to use a different language for game logic
21:42
14 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
C# is meh and boring
C# is decent and practical
all of the above are true
I'd like a tech stack that provides me with the maximum amount of fun
Nothing really comes close to C# tooling quality
that's what the hobby projects are for
I want put in some effort and get fun in return
every line I write in C# is mundane effort
C# is fun because you don't have to wrangle with shit that just doesn't want to work
21:44
yeah but it's all object oriented
with fucking mutable state
and writing real functional code means you're off the One True Path and suddenly you lose all the benefits
and TypeScript isn't?
TS at least has ADTs
What are your hobby projects? And do they involve a widget kit?
21:45
what are now or what would I like to make?
what's a widget kit
Qt for example
Yeah I don't care about ~real functional code~, I like not leaving performance on the floor
@Mikhail isn't Qt C++
@CatPlusPlus performance is kinda overrated
you just need to fit in the frame that's all
all the jit-ted languages are fucking fast
the compiled ones get really close to the ~native~ stuff
Basically, I find it hard to write anything that interacts with a user using a functional programing language. F# almost works...
Good luck with allocation shitting functional code lol
21:47
@Mikhail because that's basically cutting-edge research
@CatPlusPlus oh no the megabytes
F# has the widgets
Where the cutting mostly applies to the wrists
React exists
pure rendering APIs exist
they work
they're the future
Yeah no they're garbage and nobody cares
yeah right that's why GL adopted DSA into core
because mutable state is fiiiiiiine
21:49
:blobconfused:
DSA is mutable state
it's less state than before
What pure rendering API were you thinking about?
it's less things to model and break invariants and care about
Also these don't really respond to user interaction
No there's p much the same amount of state, it's just a different API
21:50
@Mikhail go read about FRP
Pipeline state is what matters
@CatPlusPlus well in the long run
Fibre-reinforced plastic (FRP) (also called fiber-reinforced polymer, or fiber-reinforced plastic) is a composite material made of a polymer matrix reinforced with fibres. The fibres are usually glass (in fibreglass), carbon (in carbon-fiber-reinforced polymer), aramid, or basalt. Rarely, other fibres such as paper, wood, or asbestos have been used. The polymer is usually an epoxy, vinylester, or polyester thermosetting plastic, though phenol formaldehyde resins are still in use. FRPs are commonly used in the aerospace, automotive, marine, and construction industries. They are commonly found in...
that's what Hate was supposed to be
Anyway have you tried to render a complex scene with functional code
21:50
but effort
@CatPlusPlus well never got to what you'd consider a "complex scene"
but it's still doable
React renders complex webpages
it's not just about what we have now
it's about R&D and the future
If you had to rebuild DOM every frame you'd die
Haskell could be fucking fast, but there hasn't been enought effort for it
Also functional things map to GPU not at all
21:51
there's tremendous, untapped optimization potential
You don't create new buffers all the fuckin time
implementation details
React implemented shadow DOM and everyone dropped their collective pants
because oh no it did a tree diff
magic
GPU is a dumb calculator and Vulkan just drives that point home. GL doesn't map to that either
idk why you keep bringing up React when React wouldn't work at all for real-time rendering
21:53
why wouldn't it?
I obv don't mean React specifically, I mean the pure stateless idea of a scene render
Scene graphs are on the way out because it turns out that's actually garbage
You can manage the scene graph in a functional way, the actual way the system renders can be a black box...
Yeah but you don't want to have a scene graph, or functional way
that's the optimal way from the logic PoV
16ms is really not a lot of time
21:56
Whats wrong with scene graphs?
anything that involves mutation during rendering is a liability
you're losing clarity and correctness for what amounts to a cache
Well, you actually gotta mutate rendering because you can't bind tons of textures at once (for example). But I suspect these details can be hidden...
EXT_BINDLESS_TEXTURE exists
guess why
anyway off to sleep
21:57
GPU has limited number of texturing units
Because nobody likes paying 0.5 ms for each bound texture...
it's been an interesting discussion that brought us nowhere
It brought us to "lol try doing this shit and see"
@CatPlusPlus I guess that's the only logical way forward
Hate3D was bound to happen anyway vOv
g'night
GC in the rendering path means stuttering, no GC means mutating
Good luck
xD
22:01
Can't you just black box the rendering of the scene graph?
Black what box to do what
render(scene_graph) <- where render is written in a high performing language
And, so?
You still have to implement that function
No language is high performing when you insist on doing it the least efficient possible way lol
And graphs are bad don't do graphs
Woah the Cat is here.
@CatPlusPlus Music to my ears
22:52
Underlying belief is that the shortcomings of functional languages can be addressed by the optimizer
23:21
@Mikhail While they were writing the Common LISP standard, they originally took that view. Phrases about "sufficiently intelligent compiler" ran rampant. By the time they finished, from what I can gather the phrase was only ever used ironically. I'm reasonably certain no "sufficiently intelligent compiler" exists yet, nor does anybody have any plan for creating one. Bottom line: theoretically it's undoubtedly right--but in practice...don't hold your breath.
23:53
Holy shit the cat is back
Not in black though
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