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13:00
@DeadMG Are you submitting a resume via email?
blah blah blah applying for the job blah blah blah i'm spiffy blah blah blah resume is attached blah
@Insilico indeed
@DeadMG Then whatever you write in your email is the cover letter, from what I understand.
@Insilico It's through SO careers. They have a specific webform. It has a big textbox for "cover letter".
Cover letters for for like hard copy resumes I think.
@DeadMG Oh, stuff you would put there would be something like
Here's why I'm interested in your job blah blah blah please take a look at the attached resume blah blah blah
Just write some coherent bullshit.*
*Not to be taken literally.
But keep it short.
13:03
can you create a pointer to member variables of a struct ?
@TonyTheLion Yes.
so you can do pointer++ and get the next variable in the struct
@TonyTheLion Oh wait.
Is it a POD struct?
yes
just four double s
@TonyTheLion So why not use a union?
13:04
struct foo { double x; double y; double dx; double dy; };
entirety of my struct
but it's like double a, b, c, d; and not double x[4]; ?
@TonyTheLion Yes. union { struct foo { double x; double y; double dx; double dy; }; double x[4]}; or whatever the fuck the syntax is.
yea cause I want to be able to address my double's by a name
@TonyTheLion Easier to just write a getter.
Why not make it a union then if you want to access it via a pointer use the array member of the union?
13:06
@DeadMG my double's are public
don't need a getter
@Insilico The fact that doing so is UB for one.
@TonyTheLion 1. Make array. 2. Provide GetA() function for accessing by name. 3. Profit.
@DeadMG Eh. I don't ever use unions, what do I know.
@TonyTheLion You can make a simple-ass iterator to simulate pointer access.
class foo_iterator { double operator*(); foo_iterator& operator++(); }; or something like that.
argh
landlord y u no here yet
I want sleepy time
@DeadMG You need a landlord for sleepy time?
@DeadMG To tell you a bedtime story?
13:09
Or is "sleepy time" some kind of euphemism?
It the time of the day when you feel sleepy.
I've been up since 9pm last night, and I want to go to bed, but I can't because my landlord is due to come here this afternoon and inspect my room and take readings from it.
which is obviously impractical should I be asleep in my bed at that time.
@DeadMG Your landlord hasn't given you a time of arrival?
I've been in such situations. It sucks. Fell asleep while the person was there.
13:11
@Insilico This afternoon.
pity it's only 2pm and I'm practically falling asleep already
ideone.com/JFGnM This is the issue I'm trying to solve
I'm probably just stupid
what issue is that?
@DeadMG 5pm is also this afternoon, technically
@TonyTheLion Couldn't you just unroll the loop?
@Insilico meh., maybe
13:13
@TonyTheLion ideone.com/T1yby?
I'd debug with print messages :p
@TonyTheLion This being the source of my problem.
Seesh UTF-8 converter test harness is bigger than the actual converter code. :-/
@DeadMG Chewing gum helps a little bit to stay awake.
@DeadMG Have you tried caffeine?
Such as tea and/or coffee?
13:15
Sleeping is good.
@CatPlusPlus DeadMG apparently needs to stay up for his landlord to come and check his room.
Or he could wake him up.
@CatPlusPlus I dunno go ask DeadMG.
she
@DeadMG call hiim
13:19
@TonyTheLion Then I'd have to pay the networking people to make my phone work
@sbi most of the "flag" admits I did in the past were not actual flags. I just joked. [for the record]
guys, please flag that so that sbi will read it (he is ignoring me)
or just copy it :)
i guess flagging is not a good idea now lol
Ell
Ell
I really wish c++ would have a standard abi. @DeadMG hurry up with wide so I can start using it!
lol
@Ell If you can get people to agree on such an ABI, let me know. :-)
Does the modules proposal for C++ cover ABI issues, or am I completely misunderstanding its purpose?
13:32
There's Itanium ABI, if only MS weren't an oddball and implemented it.
Ell
Ell
why is there abi incompatability? would it be non trivial to make it compatable?
@Ell Well, you first have to get everyone to agree to the name mangling scheme, I think.
I would say that whilst it's somewhat trivial now, at the time it wasn't clear about what would be the dominant implementations of things
Feeds cannot feeds properly. I can't imagine why they wouldn't cache the old entries without posting them on add.
Ell
Ell
13:34
@Insilico not necessarily... couldn't you keep the name mangling, but add like a header at the top which maps a standard interface to the name mangled things?
maybe that would ease a transition?
@DeadMG meh
@Ell Now you're just shifting the problem somewhere else.
Ell
Ell
yeah but it would get it done quicker?
@Ell Probably not.
Ell
Ell
meh okay :P
13:35
Ahh it's only 6:35 AM here and I already made a boneheaded error.
Woa. Erm. What's it with the flags?
(Yes, I know there's stuff related to it in the side bar, but still)
I couldn't figure out why the program can't open the "UTF-8_test.txt" file
for the longest time
Until I realized it's actually named "UTF-8-test.txt" file -____-
I would miss the freaking shift key.
@EtiennedeMartel You know what I don't quite understand the context either.
I knew there's always been some.. tension between @sbi and @JohannesSchaublitb, but damn.
name mangling in general is silly
people need to cut headers and start doing import libraries#
@EtiennedeMartel Really?
I must not been paying attention.
@DeadMG Too bad we're not going to see something like that happen for another 10-ish years while we wait for ISO to get their shit together.
sbi
sbi
13:40
@EtiennedeMartel Uh oh. You are using a swear word. Now the Flagginatorâ„¢ will come and wipe you out, in a "misguided" attempt to clean up this mess of a room.
Maybe if I slap him...
And, hey, ending words in -inator was my thing.
@Insilico Standards are wonderful things.
@CatPlusPlus Oh, I'm not complaining about the standards. They just get updated too damn slowly for computer technology.
But I still wonder how they could add modules to the language while keeping backward compatibility.
@EtiennedeMartel I think the modules proposal go into great detal about backwards compatibility.
sbi
sbi
13:43
@EtiennedeMartel No, it was Arnie's.
Otherwise there's no hope for getting it adopted.
@EtiennedeMartel By changing the course of history, doh.
@sbi He only did it with Terminator. I did it with EVERYTHING.
Except cakes. Fuck those.
C++ development is crap.
@CatPlusPlus What else is new?
13:44
That every spec has to go through ISO machinery doesn't help one bit.
@CatPlusPlus Oh, it's so much more.
Crapload of crap?
@EtiennedeMartel That doesn't contradict CatPlusPlus's original statement.
sbi
sbi
@EtiennedeMartel I bet Neil Stephenson's Deliverator was before you. You were probably still wetting diapers in '92.
@sbi Nah, I was 3 years old then.
sbi
sbi
13:46
@EtiennedeMartel So Stephenson was before you.
Developerator!
Well, I got beaten again by the sbinator.
@sbi Developers Developers Developers Developers!
Grumpinator.
@EtiennedeMartel How is that pronounced? "sss-bin-NAT-tor"?
Or is the "s" silent?
@Insilico It's pronounced "fuck".
13:48
@EtiennedeMartel You know what? That makes complete sense.
Ell
Ell
for god's sake ogre just build!
ahh I'm gonna switch to vc
Why Ogre? It sucks.
It got more singletons than lines of code.
Ell
Ell
It does have an aweful lot of singletons. what else though?
and I've already started with ogre :/
I have no idea how people prefer windows for dev
@Ell What makes you say that?
sbi
sbi
Allegedly, this is an add for a casino. I, OTOH, think this is the opposite of an ad for the airport, as it is way too close to the truth of how they handle your luggage.
13:51
because Linux's idea of "user friendlyness" is measured in KLoc
Ell
Ell
everything is so easy to build in linux
I mean it's not THE GREATEST OPERATING SYSTEM EVER FOR DEVELOPMENT EVER but I haven't run into trouble
Ell
Ell
on windows getting dependencies is horrible
@Ell I have the opposite experience, interestingly
Ell
Ell
acatually having said that all my troubles are probably caused by the fact i always use mingw
13:52
@Ell mingw doesn't use the CRT that comes with Windows, I believe
@Ell Depends. In C++, sure, but that's true for any platform. Ever tried managing dependencies in .NET?
yeah, that would cause a few problems :)
I bundle dependencies with all projects I have to build on Windows.
Ell
Ell
@EtiennedeMartel no - isn't it easy?
It's a pain.
13:52
mingw basically being gcc for windows
@Ell Take the DLL, dump it somewhere in your project, add a reference to it, done.
@Ell Not really.
and windows stuff so often assuming vs
Ell
Ell
@Insilico crt?
@Ell The C Runtime Library.
13:53
.NET assemblies are not a problem.
@CatPlusPlus In fact, they're great.
It's mostly C and C++ that sucks when it comes to dependencies.
Ell
Ell
ohh right
@CatPlusPlus Somehow "scrap" seems more fitting.
i thought mingw did use msvcrt, though
13:53
Really, I wish C++ had modules that were similar to .NET's assemblies.
No reference implementation. No common code repository. No reference dependency installer.
@cHao I'm pretty sure it doesn't.
No modules.
ABI problems.
It's a mess.
Freeee forrrrr aaaaaall
It's like they didn't even think of that when designing it.
13:54
That's how C++ works.
@CatPlusPlus They didn't.
@CatPlusPlus C++ is an ancient language. The "modern proper C++" we keep talking about is rather recent.
LISP is an ancient language, and they managed to do it fine.
@CatPlusPlus Because they didn't have to keep C compatibility.
13:56
C++ didn't have to, either.
@Insilico Yeah, RAII only became common in the second half of the 2000s.
It was probably the worst design decision in the history of this language.
@CatPlusPlus Because they didn't have want to keep C compatibility. FTFM
Ell
Ell
when writing a programming language, which part takes most time/effort?
All of it.
13:56
@Ell I assure you, specifying the fucking thing.
Ell
Ell
i was thinking - all its really made out of is a specificaion, a parser and a code generator/interpreter.... right?
yeah...once you have the rules, it's not that hard to translate them into machine code in most cases.
@DeadMG Why not go the PHP route and just make the whole language "happen"?
You write yourself how you'd like hello world to look like, then spend N years on spec, then spend N years on implementation.
@Ell The specification part is 99% of the language design job.
13:57
And at the end, your hello world is ill-formed.
@EtiennedeMartel because then you'd end up with a language like php? :)
That's why the C++ committee takes so long to write their drafts.
C++ committee takes so long mostly because it's a committee.
You let it grow organically, then you give up on specifying it because it's a mess, then you realize that you don't need to specify it because you got the only working implementation anyway and that nobody wants to implement a new one, and by then ignorant fanboys are ready to defend you for free whenever someone brings up the ugly truth.
@CatPlusPlus They actually do a pretty good job getting shit done as a committee (compared to lots of other committees) IMO.
13:59
(I think I nailed it)
@Insilico Yeah, I'm looking at you, JCP.
heh
@EtiennedeMartel Sounds like the W3C!
psh. is the w3c really even relevant anymore since their xml crusade kinda went bust?
@cHao They still manage the HTML and CSS specs.
Ell
Ell
lol, I have 5.25gb of failed boost isntallations that I have deleted over and over
14:00
It's gotta be worth something.
not the html one, they don't. that's almost entirely someone else now.
WHATWG
@Ell You want to install Boost on Windows with MSVC? Stop fucking around, and go there.
@EtiennedeMartel Yeah but they managed to create a language that almost nobody can implement correctly (mostly because no one knows what's actually considered correct)
Ell
Ell
but it does't have 1.50.0 :S
Lol W3C.
14:01
@Insilico That's mostly because they're C++.
W3C has some input into the spec, but it's not theirs anymore. cause they screwed the pooch so bad with XHTML and didn't want to mess with HTML5
@DeadMG We were talking about the W3C.
W3C is such a fail.
@EtiennedeMartel oh
now they have to, or they have no relevance anymore.
14:02
@DeadMG But don't worry, C++ is on the same fail train.
Choo choo!
@DeadMG At least they can come to an agreement to what is correct when it comes to the defect reports.
Not even C++ can beat the failure levels of CSS spec.
I don't know if W3C even maintains defect reports.
Ell
Ell
why is w3c such a fail?
Because they're communists.
14:03
@Ell Because W3C can't write a specification that people can follow unambiguously or don't even bother to clarify.
Ell
Ell
ahh
At least the C++ committee actually tries to clarify their shit.
Yeah.
Anyway, "industry standard" doesn't necessarily means "this shit works, yo".
for reference...the html5 specs are pretty clear imo. mostly because w3c didn't have a hand in writing them pretty much til they were already up on the web. :)
The Internet Explorer box model bug refers to the way in which earlier versions of Internet Explorer handle the sizing of elements in a web page, which differs from the standard way recommended by the W3C for the Cascading Style Sheets language. As of Internet Explorer 6, the browser supports an alternative rendering mode (called the "standards-compliant mode") which solves this discrepancy. However, for backward compatibility reasons, all versions still behave in the usual, non-standard way by default (see quirks mode). Internet Explorer for Mac is not affected by this non-standard behav...
That is one result of W3C's failure to write a damn spec.
14:06
IE6 was the "most" standard compliant browser when it came out. Then they sat on that until Firefox woke them up.
IIRC, IE6 was the only browser to fully implement the CSS 2.1 spec.
lol...there's something wrong with the world when ie6 is the most standards compliant :)
The point is that the fact that every single browser behaves in completely different ways sometimes show that W3C can't write a goddamn spec.
2
A W3C spec is like infinity: the only thing you can do is get as close as possible, but you'll never reach it.
It's amazing that anything computer-related works at all.
Thats what makes it so wonderful.
Internet itself is built with duct tape, nails and pictures of cats.
14:13
IETF standards are pretty solid.
@EtiennedeMartel And porn, apparently.
and we're starting to run low on nails.
Old, but at least it works fine.
sbi
sbi
There's places were you should never go for a swim.
@CatPlusPlus Well, these guys know how to build stuff with duct tape.
14:15
IETF standards get the bits back and forth. but they're crap for usability. that's what the W3C was supposed to be for...and what WHATWG is for now
to get the visible bits to do things one standard, decent way, so we can build on it
@cHao what do you mean by usability, in a standard context? How is a standard usable/not usable?
char v[255]; strstream vs(v, 255); vs << major << '.' << minor << std::ends; process(v);
is there something dangerous about that code?
@jalf Well, I'd certainly call a standard unusable if it's ambiguous or contradictory for major points of programs.
@JohannesSchaublitb MAGIC_BUFFER_SIZE?
good. apart from that
@DeadMG I'm just asking for clarification. :) Not really sure what he meant
@jalf Me neither. It was just a guess.
the user says "i use std::ends which always adds a '\0' to the char buffer"
I thought strstream was deprecated?
i mean, ietf standards are like...say..detailed specs on the size, shape, material, etc of a door. useful to people building buildings, but too low-level for, say, an interior decorator.
who will first solve the riddle
14:26
@jalf By the way, wanted to ask you about somethin
but is that a property of the IETF, or just a coincidence? Is there some mandate somewhere that Thou Shalt Leave High-Level Standards To A Non-IETF organization?
my current Wide spec declares, relatively simply, that all things which can be proven to be executable at compile-time are, and everything else is run-time
a web guy that tries to get by just on ietf standards is not going to be employed long. because ietf is all about moving bits, and not about the bigger picture.
but I'm having second thoughts about this
@cHao or, more accurately, because the web is not defined by an IETF standard
14:27
@jalf pretty much, that.
You could say the same for a C++ developer who tries to get by on just IETF standards
because C++ is defined by ISO, not IETF
I dunno, it can get messy when you have a function executing at compile-time, which calls another function as part of it's own compile-time, and such things
fortunately, c++ is defined by someone who has a clue what they're doing. :)
@EtiennedeMartel Yes.
@cHao Theoretically.
14:28
Right.
@DeadMG Personally, I'd prefer it to be explicit. If I write code that is intended to be run at compile-time, I don't want any nasty surprises where, without telling me, it is deferred until runtime
or vice versa
if the w3c had its hand in c++, you'd have so many </function>s and <statement><variable>a</variable><operator>=</operator><integer>42</integer></s‌​tatement>. it'd be hilarious til everyone stopped using it. :)
@jalf For example, I've been thinking more about C++ interoperation, and I came up with this gorgeous thing where you can do CPP.Header("iostream").std.cout << "Hello, World!";
which is nice
but when you start stripping out what is used when, it's not so nice
if you had to explicitly separate it out, you would be looking at something quite different
bah. someone better get here soon and fix my a/c. P
also, C++ types, mutatable by Wide code? my first instinct is that it could produce some nasty side-effects, as C++ is not built to handle that, but it could also be useful
14:35
honestly, my best advice is "try it out". ;) I think hands-on experience with the language is the only thing that can answer those questions
agreed
@DeadMG what's wrong with it? auto iostream_h = CPP.Header("iostream"); :)
@cHao .std.cout is still a compile-time lookup.
although, i question the ability of a compiler to get at that....yeah. that.
the thing is, I would say, that it can produce beautiful fluent code, but, you have to know the context.
@cHao Implementation strategy is already dealt with (roughly)
14:37
seems to me sometime around that point, you'll have built reflection into the language. :)
Would be cool to have a stream class that operates on an iterator range.
already done
@jalf Imho it comes from the fact that IETF is a quite open organisation and many vendor specific things tend to get in there. And vendors don't like to say what you can use things for, just how you "encode" them, that gives you a lot more freedom.
> Ignorance is not a crime, but it's a pretty damn big disability
@DeadMG There's an annoying ad in the way. Fuck pastebin.
14:48
never had a particular problem
what else you recommend?
So, ranges are full fledged objects instead of an iterator pair?
yep
That's good.
actually, it's a bit of a double-edged sword
when you do x.y.func() as a range, you really need to also get a reference to x.
I will spec some feature which serves that purpose later
the important point is, if you think it's readable/etc
@DeadMG Your landlord takes readings from your room? Is he a psychic or something?
14:53
ah, new specification funcake- it should really only return values in the non-void overload.
@FredOverflow Electricity meter is right next to my computer
@DeadMG Is that a motivation to turn the computer off from time to time?
But I like the ability to overload functions based on concepts (and to do so with code and not funky TMP syntax).
@FredOverflow No. :D
@EtiennedeMartel Agreed.
and you can do quite a bit more in that prolog too if you want to
@FredOverflow i really like the scala "call by name" thing.
it seems like a good idea to have this in c++
@DeadMG What do you mean?
14:58
@JohannesSchaublitb That's just lazy evaluation, isn't it? Or is it dynamic scoping?
@EtiennedeMartel Well, if you have put important infomashuns in x, because it's a range and you can't have y on it's own, then you need to be able to access them.
that you can say x = (a:int)(b:int){ return a + b; }; and then x can be curried
@FredOverflow ah yes lazy evaluation

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