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00:06
wait, I think it's right other than over charging for the interest (which they should be reversing next month anyways) because they got last months balance wrong
00:19
@Mysticial yeah, that resonates for me
Although in fairness, the papers I read rarely pretend to have groundbreaking science. They're usually graduation publications
Reworded the title to make this an excellent search hit for this recurring pitfall. (I saw it before stackoverflow.com/questions/47916281/… but it took too long for me to realize it here, again). This stuff is what Stack Overflow is made for — sehe 3 mins ago
@sehe That's a good point.
00:57
@Mysticial No. That's pretty rare in the physical science. Typically 1 page of intro that explains the view point of the experimenters (which is typically wrong and infuriating to read if you know the field). Three pages of self-fornication in the form of "here are our results". Two pages of the actual methods, the step-to-reproduce that often focus on completely meaningless stuff (how to grow cells, along with chemicals used when writing an imaging paper) . More circle-jerk summary.
There are three problems in the current format, impossible to reproduce, the content is wrong, and the motivation is wrong
The principle advantage of the current format is that it appears to resemble research to a lay observer, facilitates extensive self citation, and - because its hard to reproduce - nobody will figure out that you're full of shit
Tech/science/academia are filled with 1%-2% (most likely frustrated) geniuses and 30%-50% hopelessness and rest sh!ts (quotation needed)
So let's not put everyone in the same basket
@Mikhail So still the kind of head smashing that I encounter. Just in a different form.
01:13
So anyone here understands Maxwell's equations really well?
@Mysticial I mean, there isn't a long intro. Also the intro is "biased" or straight up wrong. Now days its considered bad to have your methods section longer than your results section. If god-forbid you actually want to show your methods, you need to do it in the supplemental.
@Mysticial So modern papers are mostly you telling somebody how great your results are, instead of for example, education
@Mikhail wut... I guess that reminds me why I quit academia.
@Mikhail Yeah, I usually read papers with the intent to learn something new.
Its different in different fields, for example, many ML papers are more reproducible
ML?
machine learning?
Yeah. But there are probably 20 times as many PhDs in cellular biology as computer science.
So, when CS people tell me the PhD isn't fucked I need to explain to them that their experiences aren't typical.
01:27
@Mysticial https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/964151
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/596642/geforce-drivers/please-help-event-id-14-from-source-nvlddmkm-cannot-be-found/2/
Turns out this might be my issue. Although I thought I had fixed it be doing a clean install of the latest drivers as I hadnt had the symptoms for two weeks, but, sadly, I got a lockup today while using Netflix on FF.
I'm gonna try downgrading drivers next weekend if I get more lockups
314.22 is old af though =/
Anyway I'm pretty sure at this point its Nvidia drivers or FF.
@Borgleader So it's either the complete operating system running under the main operating system, or else it's the complete operating system running on top of the main operating system. You've narrowed it down to no more than 100 million (or so) lines of code. :-|
02:07
sigh
 
2 hours later…
04:09
Am I the only idiot who keeps on forgetting username or where to login?
04:43
Yes
So the Australian Securities and Investments Commission website has at least 3 places where one can login. I tried with the right password twice and wrong password once before I realised that it's the wrong place to login.
 
1 hour later…
05:53
Thanks to the rain yesterday, not only did the draft track I marked on the tarp with chalk has been totally washed off, now I also have to mop the tarp dry.
06:07
@Shoe it's because he's done an internship so she needs to wait
hello everyone. Boost Asio question: Shouldn't memcopying two array objects to a single buffer and then sending via boost::asio::write be equivalent to writing a vector of const_buffer objects pointing to them?
@EdwardSeverinsen Oh god, I hadn't heard "CodeBlock" in something like 5 years
Ven
Ven
Hi
07:31
Hi :)
How do I know my internet play mates are not a pigment of my imagination?
Why does it matter?
Because I wonder how would they score against my pet roosters. I mean I love my birds but they are only chickens.
if that makes sense
@Shoe you're lying, I regularly mention that I'm still using it
 
1 hour later…
08:42
When someone disagrees with you online & demands you prove your point to their satisfaction by writing a logically sound defense, u can save a lot of time by not doing that. Dude, I’ve known u for ten seconds & enjoyed none of them, I’m not taking homework assignments from you.
This could (should?) be a useful quote to throw at peeps sometimes.
People like this:
Your help for me is prohibitive. I am very grateful to you. In these programs, there are a lot of compilation errors, I do the compilation configuration by analogy with yours. I have to hand it over to the teacher, he only takes it from CB or VS. Can you show how this will look like when I use my code? — Кирилл Тихонов 12 hours ago
@sehe C'mon, you know that you would still try to build a logically sound defense :p
Guilty as charged (the comment thread I linked is proof...)
That wasn't really a defense, but still, complying in a way (if only to show the stupidity of GUI IDEs, AFAIAC)
I'm the kind to opt out of a debate when it gets heated and uninteresting ;p
Except sometimes
08:44
Debates, yes. Trying to convince people of an approach, mmm. weak spot
@Morwenn Unrelated I thought this was mildly interesting cpplang.slack.com/archives/C21PKDHSL/p1525813141000091 (can you see cpplang links?)
When in doubt cuddle a bear
@sehe I can't :/
@Morwenn That makes it sounds as a euphemism for something illegal
@sehe It sounds more like a weird suicide attempt than something actually illegal :p
@Morwenn Nevermind, it's not groundbreaking or earth shattering: i.imgur.com/yIp5JVI.png
I've never worked on unique kind of algorithms but I guess it makes sense
The good part of a sort-unique algorithm is that you don't care about stability so you can use faster unstable algorithms x)
Looks like we might get semaphores in C++20 :o
09:02
Just when everyone forgot about them and used either atomics or condition variables
There's also new functions to efficiently for an atomic to get a specific value
Plus RCU and hazard-pointer stuff but I don't understand anything to those
@sehe Have you read Herb's proposal to overhaul exceptions in C++?
 
2 hours later…
11:29
@Morwenn I haven't. I've heard some things about it. I say, it's a good step but hope it doesn't get used as an excuse not to bother with expected/maybe etc.
@Morwenn that's for garbage collecting in concurrent data structures
LockFree containers by definition must use some kind of GC to get lockfree "remove"
11:45
@sehe Isn't maybe std::optional?
@sehe I mean, I get the overall use but the specifics are too hard to grasp for me :/
std::expected will probably land in Library Fundamentals TS v3, but the new exception thing might be used as an excuse to drop it
Ven
Ven
12:22
@sehe Oh yes cvars are such a great solution...
@Morwenn @sehe What are you talking about
@Ven I've linked it at least 3 times and it got shared everywhere, I can't believe that you didn't stumble upon it yet :o
Ven
Ven
I've been on holidays, for a nice change of pace :).
Ven
Ven
uh-oh.
Exceptions?! In my ?
yes
basically error codes using throw/try/catch and getting automatically propagated
@Ven Did you do anything special for your holidays? :)
Ven
Ven
12:29
@Morwenn Went to Houlgate, spent a few days at a friends', ...
I right, I forgot you already mentioned you were in Mormandy :o
> For example, we may change implementation details for standard function templates so that those become callable function objects.
> implementation details
Ven
Ven
12:44
> We need to fix RTTI too, but this is not that paper.
Need to start somewhere v0v
Ven
Ven
> This proposal aims to marry the best of exceptions and error codes: to allow a function to declare that it throws
values of a statically known type, which can then be implemented exactly as efficiently as a return value.
So not only have we gone full circle (±)
but we're mirroring Java now
I thought it meant checked exceptions too, but apparently it's not that
IIRC he also shits somewhat on Java at some point in the paper
OO languages tend to move in herds
if you check the added functionalities of C#, Java & C++ in the past 10 years, you know what I meant
cross pollination at its finest
13:03
@Morwenn so he's proposing swift's throws in essence
at least the way I'm reading it
maybe v0v
it's no different than having compiler enforced error code checking in essence
the only major issues I see are things like std::bind get insane to implement
There's still the automatic propagation, with stack unwinding & shit
@Morwenn yes but it's static and no different than early return in effect
@Mgetz bind should be deprecated anyway
13:06
I never used std::bind
@ratchetfreak can't be in cases where a dynamic pointer may be needed ditto std::function unfortunately
oh wait, I never used std::function either x)
@Morwenn it should in general be avoided, I only use it when interacting with C-apis that require callbacks
that is also the only time I use std::bind but I think I've replaced most of those with lambdas anyway.
std::function_ref for noexcept callbacks does sounds like something I could use
Ven
Ven
@Morwenn So, uh... what if I have using error = some type here;
this is a breaking change no?
13:13
@Ven I lack context to answer that question
Ven
Ven
@Morwenn catch (error foo)
catch (std::error foo)
@Morwenn function_ref?
I guess that normal scoping rules apply, so if you've got std::error shadowed by your own error somewhere it will probably use yours
@Mgetz A non-owning reference to a function proposed for standardization
@Morwenn ah yeah that would be less painful that function pointers... but I smell people going "What's wrong with what we have!" and ignoring the (DLGPROC) issue
sooo much undefined behavior
13:17
@Mgetz I've got no idea what this issue is :x
@Morwenn so way back in the day you used to have to cast window procs for various stupid reasons involving segments. The problem was that this masks issues like having incompatible parameters, calling conventions, and return types. People still do this in 2018 because the examples still show a C style cast which is completely unnecessary now.
And in fact highly recommended against because the API is pretty standard now and may cause stack issues.
nice
Honestly I think Herb is ignoring the fact that most of the momentum against exceptions is much the same issue. It's cargo cult BS from days of yore
People from memory-constrained stuff seem to still complain about them though, it's still not zero-cost space v0v
I like the part about out-of-memory errors too: std::bad_alloc is like the only exceptions that can be thrown from my sorting library which unless I've let a real bug slip in or some user provided exception-throwing functions/objects to the algorithms
13:37
@Morwenn yeah I've been converting some code to idiomatic and I already know it'll be slower because some of the strings that were allocated as C-arrays on the stack are now strings
my previous sentence makes no sense >.>
that's what I get for deleting and rewriting bits of it without checking the end result
@Morwenn using maybe = future<bool> (j/k)
@Ven well, they do have the benefit of being flexible (primitive) building blocks
@Ven Herp derp supper in gamedefff?
It could also have impact of the Freestanding Proposal
It would be fun if freestanding got some kind of exceptions, yet no memory allocation :p
13:52
@Ven Java exc specs specifically exist to indicate the set of static types throwable. In this proposal, there would only ever be a single "error type" throwable -
So it's a lot more like magic error codes (exploding return types strike again) than Java checked exceptions
Ven
Ven
@sehe Realized that yes
@sehe more like the throws Exception that it used whenever people don't care x)
@sehe I was reading it as being like Swifts throws statement
Where all errors must conform to the error protocol
I suppose. Sounds likely (I don't speak Swift)
 
1 hour later…
15:18
@Mgetz Underlying problem is that there are exceptions that require a complex recovery procedure so you need to absolutely need to use error codes.
For example, in my code when some piece of hardware faults, the recovery procedure doesn't quite fit in a catch{} block
@Mikhail Funny, the whole point of SEH is to handle hardware and code faults identically
Really its about some exceptions not being permanent faults, rather valid states of the program (aka camera failed is a valid state of your program)
I think CppCast did something about this a year ago
Come on. Time to show the goods. Talk is cheap. — sehe 45 mins ago
Either "Person isn't acquainted with async IO and spews old school wisdom about keep-it-simple-with-locks" or "Person completely mis-read the question and continues to argue about things for days"
@Mikhail oh I agree, one of my issues with how <filesystem> works is that in many cases you don't care about faults but you have to either catch an exception or pass in an error_code that you'll never check
I really don't care if the filesystem has been detached when doing an exists call. All I care about is if something is accessible on that path
On the other hand people often get wacky results with C++ streams, when they try to write or read from a faulted/error state stream
15:31
@Mikhail That's because iostreams are fundamentally flawed
@sehe Hmm...question specifies: "The acceptor starts a new thread for each new client-connection[...]", and nobody's bothered to point out that his design is broken from the beginning?
@JerryCoffin except many webservers on Linux effectively do exactly that... only processes
@Mgetz ...and either way, it's basically broken, unless your intent is something like "prove that we can bury any CPU imaginable with no more than 100 concurrent connections."
@JerryCoffin not disagreeing
@Mgetz Node.js is a a single threaded even loop
15:44
@Mikhail I still believe that each request gets its own thread
I think that I may just like proposals that try to improve existing classes to make them better
hello, newbie here
Hello little child
inb4 move
I have a question about assembly code, would this be the right place to ask? I reckon people who code in c/c++ are more familiar with assembly
15:48
hasn't done any assembly since engineering school
feel free to ask here
@milleniumbug do you think it's sufficient?
hasn't coded any assembly since engg school, too, but has been bitten by a bug to read assembly code
well, we may have one or two nerds knowing enough about assembly over there :p
@Mgetz in node.js? I think most implementations have a thread pool and each request gets assigned to a thread
16:12
@JerryCoffin It's a bad idea but not borken.
@Mgetz Please quote your source. I suspect your source is from 2002
@Mikhail I don't even
:P
@sehe FastCGI so Mid-1990s technically ;p
@Mgetz the closest to true that is that servers have one thread accepting new connections, and hand of to something else so that this main thread can keep on listening to new connections
@thecoshman I believe at the time it was common the FastCGI interpreter to fork for each incoming call
Talk was about current stuff though, no?
16:24
@Mgetz CGI is the worst.
FastCGI is not much better. F*cking perl-envy
@Mgetz It sure was.
It made sense at the scale web applications ran those days.
@sehe so yeah my data was waaaaay out of date. I think FastCGI has been replaced with something new IIRC
uWSGI
And even that is far from the norm.
Every platform has its asyncio framework (or socket.io etc). And they all copy the model popularized by nodejs
Effectively, what @thecoshman said
16:37
@sehe I suppose broken might be a little too strong a word, but seems like a poor enough idea to at least deserve a comment.
17:05
@Mgetz There are countries newer than your info bro
@thecoshman Eastern Timor
I think the Yugoslav wars had already shaken out by then
17:44
@BartekBanachewicz I think I'm too programmer for this form... I keep having issues with ambiguity. Or maybe I'm filling out the wrong form altogether :S
CRAP DAMN IT!!! IT'S THE WRONG FORM
@Mgetz 3 big ones, East Timor, South Sudan, and Palestine (recognized by UN in 2012)
18:31
@JerryCoffin we're waiting :)
Oh in fact we're not anymore. :sheepishgrin:
@sehe I hope not--I posted it around an hour ago...
sbi
sbi
@ScarletAmaranth First of all: I haven't been chatting here much for years. What makes you think I'd come elsewhere?
But also: Over the years, I have learned that things have their time an place, and that it is impossible to extend their time or to transplant them to some other place. This was a wonderful place in the first 2 years after it was created, but things have changed. People have left, others have arrived, some ugly things have happened, the meta police has intervened... You cannot roll all that back and make this the place it were – let alone elsewhere.
(Note: I'm not saying your Discord chat will be a bad place. But it won't be the same that was here.)
'evening, BTW.
18:51
Evening, big guy
sbi
sbi
"Big guy", says the polar bear to someone else.
Hey. Apex predators among ourselves, right.
I've got to go pick up kid. Bbl
(PS. I think John Skeet knows the keyboard shortcuts dialog in Visual Studio. Or at least he'd be told about that pretty fast :))
sbi
sbi
Dear @sehe, gorillas are mostly vegetarian.
@sehe I looked at this for a while, and then wondered about this.
@sbi I think you'll be pleasantly surprised though. It's not the place we once had, but it's very nice
How you keeping any way?
I do hope are aware of the gathering this year in Paris, and simply unable to make it yet again
sbi
sbi
@thecoshman Eh. I'm not going to install some proprietary app that consumes lots of RAM just in order to chat.
19:04
-1
Q: How to solve this case of taking input in 2d array in c++ using cin object of input stream

user9001955the code is:- #include <iostream> using namespace std; int main() { int x; cin>>x; int arr[x][1]; for(int i=0;i<x;i++) { cin>>arr[i][0]; cin.ignore(); cin>>arr[i][1]; } for(int i=0;i<x;i++) cout<<arr[i][0]<<" "<<arr[i][1]<<endl; ...

@sbi browser based
but yeah... can't help about the ram thing :P
sbi
sbi
@thecoshman From what I remember, it wasn't at a time suitable for me. Also, there's the monetary problem. :-/
welcome to modern software development
@sbi the 2nd
sbi
sbi
However...
I will be at Meeting C++ this year. Anyone else from here?
6
If you can find the time, I'm sure we can find the money :D
sbi
sbi
19:07
@thecoshman Now I remember. That's my late grandfather's birthday, and traditionally the weekend his children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren gather to meet once a year. Also, I do have the wee ones at that weekend.
@sbi Could someone please star this so it's visible?
@sbi @milleniumbug seeing as the white bear is awol
sbi
sbi
@thecoshman Um. Why don't you just star it??
Ah, you actually mean star :P
sbi
sbi
Thanks.
He can slap a pin on it too though
sbi
sbi
19:10
Yeah. But is this worth it? There's things on the starboard from a week ago...
I forget at times how dead this place is
19:25
y'all need to lay off the member berries
@sbi oh uh it's been a while since visited the rainforest
@sbi I might. Hmmm why is there an "early summer" price? Why would one select that (or the "normal price"?)
@thecoshman Away without lice
@thecoshman Some other creature did
@sehe :( homophones are my enemy
sbi
sbi
@sehe There was an early-bird price. Those have already sold out, though. Early summer tickets are still left.
Funny that their "webshop" still lists them then
Oh. 3 stages.
Got it
The Ski resort season ticket model
19:35
Oh that. I don't know about those, because I might break a shin bone looking at it
I broke my knee once, but it got better
sbi
sbi
@thecoshman What difference does it make? It's still proprietary software running on my machine. And from what I hear it's consuming vast resources just for chatting.
@sbi Still grumpy about this web 2.0 thing
aka internet communism
sbi
sbi
@crasic Erm. I am using a Web 2.0 app currently, am I not?
You want us to provide a service? Surprise, client side execution
@sbi @sbi , an enigma which will take years of study to understand
sbi
sbi
19:45
Well, it did take way more years to emerge, so it's only fair, isn't it?
Discord's been awesome. There are no participation requirements there so you can just, you know, hang out :).
No pressure Ape.
sbi
sbi
Is that lacking a hyphen?
Pressure-Ape?
I tried to hop on to help out some gamers run linux dedicated servers
made the mistake of using my real name for chat
I was representing my github account/projects
Yes, absolutely.
sbi
sbi
Chat user since 2013?? Is that you, Cicada?
20:00
He's not Cicada.
sbi
sbi
Well, for once I was aware that some unknown-to-me could be the insect, and then I am wrong.
Did I ever mention I don't get what's so appealing about constantly changing your user name?
Neither do I.
I've never changed my user name on SE
20:18
Still, you could give it a bash, costs nothing.
sbi
sbi
You mean a badge, Shirley?
BTW, I have asked a question on SO. It's a syntax puzzle, so maybe some of you are interested. :)
@sbi Your working with fieldbuses now?
sbi
sbi
@crasic Actually, I have been doing this since 2012. This is used for messaging, though, which so far we do solely via TCP/IP.
Anyway, it's 10:30pm here and I need to go home now.
Bye!
Meh, I use union of bitfield struct and numeric type for our message protocols, but we have fully defined fixed-length message primitives with no ambiguity, so the caveats are manageable. The performance benefit is pretty good
20:36
@sbi Are you sure you wrote this? There's isn't any bold or italicized text.
@sbi Doesn't seem to be easy enough in C++03. Outside of code generation through external means, as suggested in the comments, pure C++ solution could use x-macros, but that's dirty C preprocessor trick, and not sure how eager you would be to use these :)
yeah without reflection it'll boil down to external code gen or Xmacros
@milleniumbug Since one is already using protobuf...
@sbi RAM asside... not sure what your beef is with 'someone else's code'
> proprietary
am I right?
20:48
@sbi oddly dumb question: have you considered Protobuf?
21:12
@Mgetz According to the question, he is already using protobuf
Two meta-programming frameworks are better than one
According to my location - This is my home office
 
1 hour later…
22:22
@crasic You're between a rock and a hard place.
22:32
he's between a rock and hard space
22:56
@sbi ScarletAmaranth has ... almost always been ScarletAmaranth - also, since 2012, apparently:
Apr 16 '12 at 22:32, by sehe
@ScarletAmaranth yes, depending on types of a,b,c and d
@crasic I have a meta-meta-programming framework just to manage all the meta-programming frameworks!
23:58
@JerryCoffin Python is nice, yes

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