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5:00 PM
For example, at work here, we have millions of lines of code. Because of access restrictions (among other things), it's impossible to get an IDE working like that. So when I see an auto, I'm basically forced to grep the code case for the function or field on the RHS, and I get 5000 hits. And I have no fucking clue where to start.
 
@Mysticial No, it doesn't. And syntax coloring doesn't work if you print B&W on paper. What's your point?
 
in moderation, autos are incredible , e.g. when you are working with filesystem in boost or with time in Standard Library — with really huge type names
 
@login_not_failed autos are find when the context is obvious. (like a range-based for-loop of a clearly marked std:: type or something)
 
@Mysticial yes! exactly my point
 
@Mysticial and what's not obvious in the context of my answer?
 
5:01 PM
I'm just arguing that overuse of auto hurts readability. And I'm saying that because I've spent countless hours at work trying to grep millions of lines of corporate code because somebody abused auto.
 
@Mysticial that's nasty
 
@Mysticial So you're projecting your bad experience with bad tools at (seemingly) bad codebase to the whole keyword use.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Let me invert the question, what do you gain from writing auto instead of int or double, etc?
 
Hey guys, I know there is chat dedicated for C++ questions. But looks like no one is reading that ATM. Can I post a real simple question here?
 
I'd argue absolutely nothing.
 
5:03 PM
@Mysticial For example, if that class changed to use double, my code wouldn't break or need changes.
Since those values are just, again, renamed expressions, they should accurately represent the original type.
This could be achieved with (something like) e.g. decltype(mis.x) missileX = mis.x;, but that's just redundant noise.
 
I would argue that changing types like that in general is going to cause a lot more other issues. First of all, you're gonna break all the integer divisions. And if you really need to do it, compiler warnings will catch most of the places that might be problematic.
 
@Mysticial And yet in this particular function it wouldn't be a problem.
Especially given that it could be written without those variables at all.
 
Let's just say that if you rewrote that without variables, it sure as hell wouldn't pass my code review.
 
if(mis.x < ast.x + ast.size &&
     mis.x > ast.x &&
     mis.y < ast.y + ast.size &&
     mis.y > ast.y && mis.draw == 1 && ast.draw == 1)
{
    collisionCounter++;
    ast.draw = false;
    mis.draw = false;
}
@Mysticial this wouldn't? even though the .draw property was used well enough without the alias?
 
This particular case is probably fine if I had easy access to types they were referring to.
 
5:11 PM
I am really interested why do you consider the lack of a dot in those expressions so valuable.
@Mysticial The same assumption holds for the case with auto, since you can access the types from the expressions that were used to initialize them.
 
Stackoverflow is not for "helping in completion" and to be quite frank, by the looks of it we'd be doing all the work since you've presented nothing but a problem description. — Borgleader 33 secs ago
 
Anyway, since you consider it fine, then I guess this changes:
16 mins ago, by Mysticial
I argue it is important.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I disagree in the general case. Once you go through multiple levels of it, you go back to the same grepping bullshit that I encounter twice a week.
If you're used to having an IDE, good for you.
I don't have that luxury at work.
 
11 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@Mysticial So you're projecting your bad experience with bad tools at (seemingly) bad codebase to the whole keyword use.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Just curious, how big is the codebase where you work and does it have a working IDE environment?
 
5:14 PM
@Mysticial I write my haskell code without any IDE so far and I'd wager that the percentage of named expressions that are explicitely typed is probably way lower than yours.
 
I used to follow your same mindset, until my last two jobs which did not have that luxury.
 
If you want to say that C++ is a shitty language to work with then I got that years ago.
But auto is hardly a contributing factor in that.
 
How is that relevant here?
 
You're talking about your bad experience with bad toolking for a language I consider rather bad and you're blaming just one harmless feature for your problems with code readability.
 
@BartekBanachewicz You haven't answered my question:
3 mins ago, by Mysticial
@BartekBanachewicz Just curious, how big is the codebase where you work and does it have a working IDE environment?
 
5:18 PM
oh dear are we arguing over auto again?
 
@Mysticial I don't really code at work anymore, so I don't think my (anectodic) answer would be fair.
 
@BartekBanachewicz So you never get your hands dirty anymore. Good for you.
 
@Mysticial Yep, but that just means I can't use my anecdotal experience as an argument :)
Because the way I see it even if auto is to blame in your case, the way you're blaming it is "another tool that can be misused" and I simply refuse to buy into that way of thinking.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I never said, "never use auto". I'm just saying that overuse or unnecessary use tends to cause more problems than it solves.
 
If you give programmers a toolkit and he misuses any part of it because he doesn't know how to use it properly, blaming the tool is the thing you do after much more than my shitty IDE doesn't work well with it.
@Mysticial That's true for every single language construct ever. You haven't proven anything there.
 
5:22 PM
If there's no clear benefit of auto (such as some template deduction shit, or some really long container iterator), I stay clear of it because the next person who comes around to it 6 months later (even if it's me) will pull their hair out if they can't figure out what type they're working with.
@BartekBanachewicz And neither have you.
 
@Mysticial It was you who started out with a point to prove, though.
 
@Mysticial I understand this complaint, but having had to refactor several large codebases and change return types on things... auto can be a godsend if the types are method compatible
and yes I'm aware of the open/closed principle
 
@Mysticial What I was trying to say was that it's not the "auto overuse", it's "lack of explicit information". Lack of explicit information could also be using int everywhere where you should use typedefs instead. It has nothing to do with auto in particular, and yet people make it about it.
 
@BartekBanachewicz C has this problem with void* and int in a painful way
 
@BartekBanachewicz Okay, I agree with you there. It's just that auto in many ways becomes synonymous with the "lack of explicit information".
 
5:25 PM
And I'd actually wager that maintaining accurate explicit type information on local helpers uses way more time than determining the auto type. We have static typing for a reason and one reason is to not have to think about types where the compiler can do that for us.
If you tried rigorously typing everything by hand and determining the type of every expression, why would you need a compiler then? To double check your efforts? You're already trusting it on complex expressions and auto just introduces named steps in them.
What I'm proposing is thinking about the types that actually matter. If you let the compiler do the bulk of work, you have more time to focus on the actually important parts, like APIs and exported values and interfaces etc.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I think part of this probably stems from us having very different backgrounds. You keep arguing that types don't matter. And I keep saying that it does matter. In the stuff that I deal with (finance) and HPC, it matters a lot both for correctness and performance.
Implicit conversions between types keep showing up in the profiler hotspots and keep fucking up concurrency amounts. Different packages written by different teams with incompatible types lead to shit with stuff like signed/unsigned comparisons and implicit promotions.
 
@Mysticial I'm certainly not arguing that all types don't matter.
@Mysticial That's the problem of implicit conversions, not lack of explicit typing
If the type of the autos is important, you also need to know the type on the right-hand-side of the assignment (in case you're invoking a custom conversion operator). So without auto, you still have the same effective level of indirection, the same requirement to check docs or code to find that type, but an additional coupling if you change that type. — Useless 1 min ago
consider such a function
 
Back when I was at google, types didn't matter as much. Nobody every used floating-point. And incompatilibilities were harmless since it would at most fuck up a pixel on the screen as opposed to sending an order for 4.2 billion shares instead of 100.
 
void f(SomeStruct s) {
    auto x = s.x;
    use(x);
}

void g(SomeStruct s) {
    use(s.x);
}

void h(SomeStruct s) {
    float x = s.x
    use(x);
}
@Mysticial this is a slightly more generic example. Would you say that h is the only acceptable implementation?
Because for me f and g are equivalent, so if you accept g, then you should accept f as well. And h is a very specific case that needs to have a good reasoning behind.
@Mysticial If I were doing code that needs such critical correctness on numbers, I sure as hell wouldn't use primitive types without any wrappers that would prevent such conversions.
Ada is a notable language used for mission-critical software and its number types are the prime example of that ideology.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Tell that do the people who wrote the code 20 years ago.
 
5:40 PM
@Mysticial What are you trying to say by that?
 
@BartekBanachewicz he he
 
@Shoe it's so clean right now :3
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm saying that you don't necessarily have the luxury to do that. Especially if there's that much legacy code involved.
I've been trying to push for some of these type-safe abstractions, but because they touch soo much legacy code and would wreck havoc on all the existing stuff, it's not getting through.
 
@Mysticial If only the whole codebase used auto so that it would be a change in one place :). Anyway, it sounds to me like the legacy code is the problem, and typing things unnecessarily is a sad countermeasure to be taken - and certainly not a baseline approach for fresh code.
 
@BartekBanachewicz It looks cleaner, I'll give you that
 
5:46 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Even for fresh code, that's easier said than done. It's often difficult to anticipate all the places where you might need to wrap instead of use a primitive.
And going the strict, "no primitives at all" is a bit heavy-handed.
 
@Mysticial I thought C++ provided operator overloading precisely to make it easier
@Shoe it's functionally equivalent
 
@BartekBanachewicz You don't use primitives in your code?
 
@Mysticial As you've already observed, I don't deal with mission-critical finance code :)
 
Over-doing the type wrapping is one of the (few) cases where it may end up having legitimate issues with compile-time. But that's a separate issue.
 
Xeo
voi @Mysticial
go watch some animu
 
5:49 PM
but for stuff that's kinda critical I tend to safe wrap, yeah
newtype TableRef = TableRef Int deriving (Ord, Eq, Show)
newtype FunctionRef = FunctionRef Int deriving (Ord, Eq, Show)
Esp. for things that aren't numbers but are represented internally with numbers like ^
@Mysticial Mmm, compile time vs. correctness ;)
 
Xeo
enum class TableRef : std::uint64_t {}; :3
 
@BartekBanachewicz TBH, even if you imagine a world where the code is perfect and everything is type-wrapped, if it takes an hour to compile and link (even if just incremental), you're not shipping the product before the deadline. And in some cases, it's better to ship a buggy product than no product at all.
But that's just a contrived example.
 
so it's actually not that mission-critical after all
 
No I did not say that.
 
I for one would rather wait that hour before sending a space probe with buggy code
@Mysticial Also an hour for a full rebuild isn't that bad.
if it's not crazy-template-code-hour, then the incremental build shouldn't take more than a couple minutes
 
nwp
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm referring to the development part. If every single tiny change takes an hour to compile, it'll take forever to get anything out the door. I'm not arguing against correctness here. I'm just saying there is a line to be drawn somewhere even if it's very high.
 
@Mysticial if every single change takes an hour to compile, then the project is too monolithic
sure there are core shared parts that will trickle down and trigger a lot of rebuilds, but most of the changes shouldn't touch those
 
@BartekBanachewicz Or the build system is weird. Here, it's unavoidable in many places. Because of the access restrictions, you don't have access to all the code you need. So you need to submit a patch to a server which builds it for you from scratch.
 
@Mysticial You surely have an artifact repository so that you can build the whole thing locally, even without access to restricted code, right?
 
And you can't give the necessary access restrictions because these are the "money making codes" that predict the markets and they don't want any disgruntled employee walking out with it.
The only person who has access to all the code is the CEO.
 
5:59 PM
This sounds like a perfect case for a (mocked) dynamically linked library.
build everything locally, test with the mocked version, iterate more rapidly. Or download the pre-built money-making one, test with that, ditto.
We're actually vastly revamping our CI right now and moving to containerized, component builds with Jenkins
that's for slightly different reasons, but the idea is the same - break stuff up into smaller parts because when they grow they become unmanageable no matter what
 
Damn son
I can't disagree with Bartek
4
 
@BartekBanachewicz They already do that. There isn't a single box that holds everything because someone can just come and steal it. The builds are broken up across multiple builds. The problem is that when you change something in the core libraries, it leads to the usual rebuild explosion, but because of some legacy shit, you end up with the chicken-egg-problem with circular dependencies which need manual rebuilds. It's ugly.
It's all the result of decades of legacy shit. There's a team trying to clean that up. But that's a long term thing.
 
Are there any kind of specialized hard ware MP4 encoders or are work station PCs fast enough?
 
@Mysticial Sounds like auto is the least of your problems then :)
 
@Trauer Sure you can. In fact, it's usually pretty easy.
 
6:08 PM
@BartekBanachewicz No because I'm not the one dealing with that. I know about it because that's what I hear from the other guys. I do mostly profiling and code analysis - hence my grips about all the auto abuses in the code making it impossible to read.
 
@wilx Fast enough for what? Yes, there are hardware MP4 encoders. Yes, a pro level video camera (for one obvious example) almost certainly does the compression using special hardware, not a workstation.
 
@Rerito would not it be nice to let any warnings be left after rationalizing their existence? It looks like programmers' attempts to fix warnings for the sake of it is a source of bugs.
 
@Mysticial Well at least I can see your PoV now.
I agree that it's a rather unfortunate position, but I'd argue that it's (should be? oh the optimism) an exception rather the norm.
 
@wilx if by MP4 you mean H264/H265 then yes, the hardware codecs are built in a huge number of processors: videochips, embedded, recent x86s.
 
@BartekBanachewicz It was the same at my previous job.
 
6:11 PM
@JerryCoffin Well, I did not mean cameras. More like people editing this for, say, TV stations.
@JerryCoffin That link is very relevant, thank you.
 
My first job (Google) was the only place I've worked at that seems to have their shit together. But that wasn't C++ though.
 
@wilx It does not mean that they are not powerful for en/decoding H26*, it means that it's cheap enough and beneficial to make a hardcoded thingy for that.
 
@Mysticial you don't miss google?
 
@ProblemSlover I do, but it wasn't a good fit for my skill set.
 
@Mysticial cringed after reading last sentence.
 
6:19 PM
@wilx They're also typically going to use specialized hardware (e.g., from Black Magic or Matrox).
 
@Mysticial well I hope your current job is something that you are trully passionate about to do,.
 
hmm, Turnip will soon reach the commit count of Hate
 
6:37 PM
^ Hm...
That's not quite right :P
 
@StackedCrooked lolwut
 
Idd
From the Chromium source code.
 
Looks like someone wants constexpr really badly.
 
Xeo
oi 'sticial, I told you to go watch animu
 
@Xeo I'm at fucking work. lol
 
Xeo
6:45 PM
excuses
 
My first Github crush.. damn. github.com/zyshi
 
Xeo
...
 
nwp
@ProblemSlover probably a fat bearded bald man IRL
 
@nwp not really.. did Research on Libkedin..
 
Xeo
1 min ago, by Xeo
...
 
6:54 PM
so language implementers
does your AST have source locations for every element?
I'm looking at it and I only have string literals tagged. This means my errors lack source information.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Of course it does.
 
I'm gonna try adding it to one element and see how it works
 
you should have the location of every non-whitespace character in your AST
 
that sounds... excessive
 
not really
it turns out they're pretty much all useful
 
6:57 PM
is it still "abstract" then?
 
syntax highlighting and similar IDE integration, error messages, or both
yep
the abstract, in as far as a fucking tree is ever abstract, is in how you came by the tree
if you want to be ridiculously flexible about how you can come by AST nodes then just make the location information not necessarily a file/line/offset jobby
but frankly, there's not a great deal of use in producing AST by means other than parsing characters from some source
because if you're not a complete moron, anybody who wants to add extra semantics just adds extra semantics and doesn't give a fuck about the AST
after all, the key is in the name- syntax.
 
Xeo
Reminds me of MSVC's "Abstract Syntax Tree", which is neither abstract, nor about syntax and also not a tree.
 
second attempt
 
my internet connection has dropped
 
but still gets stuck..
damn
 
Xeo
7:02 PM
@BartekBanachewicz was it a sick beat?
 
which in the ISPspeak means chat still works because it's an open socket
 
or maybe it's just DNS dunno
 
@Xeo Staggers me how so many people keep on mixing infinity semantics into their syntax trees
 
Turnip REPL v0.3.0.0

> t:f()
Lua error "Attempt to member call on non-table (Nil)(line 1, column 6)"
hey, this is actually pretty cool
Lua actually only displays the line number
Lua 5.1.4  Copyright (C) 1994-2008 Lua.org, PUC-Rio
> t:f()
stdin:1: attempt to index global 't' (a nil value)
stack traceback:
        stdin:1: in main chunk
        [C]: ?
 
7:12 PM
that's because it's terrible
 
and my error is better as well! (I've changed it now because I wasn't sure if it's a field ref or a member call)
 
Xeo
you should also spit out the variable name
or the source context
 
that would hint they desugar member calls in parsing which sounds really shitty
@Xeo it doesn't have to be a variable, though. Could be e.g. f():g()
and then I'd have to pretty-print the whole expression and my pretty-printers are lacking to say the least
 
no you don't
just print the relevant part of the source file
 
but... it's certainly possible. I guess this marks an important win for the whole thing where it surpasses original Lua.
@Puppy oh right, I could probably do that too, but I'd need to keep the source available
 
7:16 PM
yes, you should have the source available
 
also the location is a point, not a range
 
it's a range.
the fact that sometimes it happens to be 1 character wide isn't important
 
@Puppy (line 1, column 6) is most definitely a point
 
that's because your error reporting is defective
the erroneous expression occupies a range in the source file
which is why you report a range
 
@Puppy that's what Parsec provides automatically for me. I'm not doing it by hand, remember
 
7:19 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Well, potato potahto really, just means that Parsec's automatic error reporting slash source location information is defective
 
@Puppy I think I would just need get the position before and after the element is parsed
 
the element should contain the full range of where it begins and ends
 
Ell
I wonder if there are any tools where you can give it a whole bunch of valid sources and it will spit out a grammar
that'd be cool
 
    pos1 <- getPosition
    ex <- primaryexp
    pos <- getPosition

    traceShowM pos1
    traceShowM pos
> t:f()
(line 1, column 1)
(line 1, column 6)
Lua error "Attempt to member call on non-table (Nil) (line 1, column 6)"
 
@Ell yep
 
7:21 PM
looks alright
 
machine learning can do it
 
Ell
@Puppy are there any tools available now?
 
> (function() return nil end)():g()
(line 1, column 1)
(line 1, column 34)
 
Ell
something I can try out
 
@BartekBanachewicz It's 1-indexed.
 
7:22 PM
@Puppy aren't lines in sources typically 1-indexed?
 
Ell
@Puppy source text usually is
 
you don't know that you have a source line.
you could, for instance, be trying to highlight a text buffer in an IDE.
 
anyway it looks nice, seems I'd just need to add that to every AST node generically and it's good to go
 
0-indexed is the correct way to go for all error reporting information
 
@Puppy I think it'd be really misleading for actual source files
 
7:23 PM
@BartekBanachewicz if you want to report it as 1-indexed when run as a console tool on a physical source file, that's a detail of that driver and that use case.
 
Ell
it doesn't matter what you do as long as it's consistent
 
nwp
@Ell you can trivially produce a grammar that just does source1 | source 2 | ... which would be completely useless
 
yes, it does, and fuck consistency with a spoon.
 
@Puppy hm, that would mean my errors would need to stop being strings
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, you should report structured errors that can be rendered however they're needed.
 
7:24 PM
right now I'm concatenating the location directly in the eval stage, I'd need to retun a structure and... yeah ^
hey, it doesn't sound all that bad
 
for instance, in the Wide compiler, I sometimes print an error to the console, but sometimes I turn it into a VS source buffer tag, and sometimes I render it with React on a web page in JS.
turning it into a string to print on the console is, well, a detail of the use case of parsing source files with a console.
the actual error itself is completely structured
 
everything you've said makes a surprising amount of sense
 
Ell
@Puppy I agree with this
however, his thing is reporting to the user directly at the minute I think
 
that's because I actually have some experience in this area and in programming in general ;p
 
@Ell but that's the repl detail indeed
@Puppy thanks to having the latter I can actually follow :P
I was kinda afraid of doing the error reporting but I see it was unbased
Well, there are stack traces left which I suppose will be much more complex
 
7:27 PM
it's not complicated really
get data from AST, return that data, pretty much
 
Ell
I think it would be cool if a parser was good enough to correct errors for you, continue to compile the program and ask whether you agree with the correction so it can do it for you
 
stack trace elements are created artificially at call nodes, correct?
 
er, stack trace elements?
 
well, lines. levels.
 
yeah
so really when you evaluate the call expression in your evaluator, chuck the location data on your call stack state
then when you encounter an error, simply read the aforementioned call stack state
 
7:29 PM
and that state has to follow through the execution with me just like the closure
 
not quite
 
where's the difference?
 
ignoring coroutines for a minute, the call stack is simpler because you only have to trace true calls, there's no such thing as closing over the call stack
 
so I don't have to store it when I create a lambda?
 
nope
 
7:30 PM
eval (AST.Lambda parNames varargs b) = do
    cls <- getClosure
    newRef <- makeNewLambda $ FunctionData cls b parNames varargs
    return [Function newRef]
 
the call stack data shows the place where the lambda was invoked from, not the lambda's creation point
 
coroutines are more complicated but I imagine you'll worry about them later ;p
 
oh yeah I haven't been touching them at all yet
there's quite a lot of stuff missing still
 
Xeo
if only thread stack traces included where the thread was being started from..
 
7:41 PM
asynchronous stack traces can be a world of pain
 
Xeo
"just" need to trace when creating the thread and store it thread_local in there, no?
 
no.
for instance, let's consider a thread pool
the thread pool thread will be created by the pool's internals
the actual work's stack trace will be completely separate
then add in continuations and that kind of thing
then one might want to consider externally-triggered asynchronous work, e.g. continuations from a network request
 
@Puppy @Xeo actually my first project in my company involved doing those for Node.js callback stacks
we instrumented the asynchronous code and added diagnostic information to closures passed to callbacks so that we could rebuild the complete stack
 
Chrome has a feature for that
 
@Puppy apparently, yeah. Interesting, didn't notice it when doing research back then
anyway, our solution was purely JS based and didn't require a specialize build of Node
 
8:15 PM
2 messages moved to bin
 
Will buy your running shoes :P
 
@Borgleader
-17
Q: find (a^a^a....^a) % mod using euler totient theorem

user7399335Please give code of it and thanks in advance. Please give code of it and thanks in advance. Please give code of it and thanks in advance. Please give code of it and thanks in advance.

 
haha
 
SO should add a, "copy paste 3 times button" to satisfy the length requirement which then auto-closes the question, and auto-bans the user.
 
8:43 PM
@Mysticial Bwahahaha, thats amazing (so is Pete Beckers comment tbh)
 
I thought Pete's comment unironically before I saw it.
 
@EuriPinhollow When you're tempted in that direction, remind yourself that Pete was apparently the person who managed to include:"When writing a specialization, be careful about its location; or to make it compile will be such a trial as to kindle its self-immolation." as normative wording in an international standard. :-)
 
They indexed it lol.
 
8:59 PM
@EuriPinhollow I found that one ages ago, but I didn't know they indexed it
 
-3
Q: Can i make questions with disabled down-voting or?

user439345So i want feature, that disable down voting, so if your question is not interesting it iz zero, or even there is down votes but with feature that i can approve some down votes. I know this will mess up all logic, structure, but i really don't care if someone down vote that i don't approve, cause ...

 
@Mysticial I am not really amused. Always hated downvoting without explicit reasoning.
 
blame shog
 
It could be a special deal: "Leave the downvote reason now and multiply your downvote effect by 4!"
 
9:11 PM
I'm not against the idea of requiring a comment on downvoting. But there are two main problems:
1. People are just gonna post, "-1, iuhboiaudfh".
2. Retaliation.
 
1. Get reason review queue.
2. Get review queue for retaliation attempts.
 
#2 can be solved by anonymizing. SE is adamant about not supporting that. But you can do it with a separate account that has no posts with which to retaliate.
@EuriPinhollow The queue is never gonna get cleared because it will be filled faster than it can be processed.
Sorta like the close votes queue which got over 100k before they started hiding the real number of them.
 
nwp
@EuriPinhollow I'd retaliate for rejecting my retaliation vote just for the irony
 
@Mysticial then leaving a downvote with reasoning should be a paid option in peak hours.
 
@EuriPinhollow If you think you have any ideas, post them on meta.SE.
I have no power to implement anything.
 
9:14 PM
aww someone deleted my comment
 
What comment?
 
@Mysticial downvotes are already anonymous for non-moderators, ain't they?
 
nwp
there are those "lacks minimal understanding" questions where explaining the downvote would be major effort
 
@EuriPinhollow Not if you leave an explanation.
 
@nwp then it would be drowned with small downvotes as well.
@Mysticial I mean, anonimity is obviously not a problem since downvotes are already anonymous.
@Mysticial I totally forgot about that I can post idea about review queue monetization on Meta! Awesome idea.
 
9:17 PM
@EuriPinhollow The point is to leave a comment for why you downvoted without allowing the OP to trace who you are.
The idea that I've been somewhat advocating is to create a second account named, "downvote commenter". Use suggested edits to get up to 50 rep. Downvote on your main account. And comment from the second account. That way they can't retaliate.
That's not against the rules since you're not using the second account to bypass any per-account limitations.
 
If I was site developer who wanted to implement this I'd make a separate place for that - a dropdown list for each post to view downvote reasons.
 
nwp
Why would you want to prevent retaliation downvotes anyways? It doesn't significantly hurt your rep, not even mine, and chances are people will see an answer/question that has an unfairly low vote status and fix that by upvoting, giving you net rep.
 
Really though, somebody dug out my several months old 0-vote perfectly correct answer, read all of it except the last part of it, made a comment from remix of part which one did not read, I replied saying that it would be nice to read whole answer, then got a downvote.
 
@nwp It's more than just that. You should hear some of the stories from moderators. There was one about how some user started calling his employer to get him fired. Yes it's childish, but if there's an easy way to prevent it, why not?
 
I am really getting used to people who are expressing opinion without actually caring about the subject so that did not boil me.
 
nwp
9:25 PM
@EuriPinhollow had you phrased it as "Yes, it says that at the end of the answer" people might have read it as "I agree" and not as "You are dumb" and gotten you an upvote instead
 
@nwp judge it yourself if you are bored enough: photo.stackexchange.com/questions/88140/…
 
nwp
@EuriPinhollow I don't understand your last comment. The last part of the answer says it is natural movement, the other person's comment says it is natural movement, you implicitly agree by referring to the answer and then say it cannot be natural movement?
 
I did not implicitly agree. When somebody says "natural movement" one either says something what I described in last part of my answer (gemoteric deformation) and then one won't write that kind of comment OR one means the rotation of sky and that is not an rotation of i.e. those are not traces of movement along those traces.
 
nwp
oh, rotation of the sky is not the same as natural movement?
 
Edited.
Check out off-center left-bottom to right-top diagonal.
The sectors which are close to edges are stretched in one direction more than in the other.
The effect would be somewhat different with example which was discussed there but the principle is similar.
It's easy to confuse those traces on that example photo with sky rotation unless you notice that they are not circular (they are somewhat parallel).
When a photo editing program aligns that it does not match the images using any guides, it only uses rotation+move, hence those traces which are reflecting the change of visible sky geometry caused by rotating.
 
nwp
9:44 PM
it feels like it could be worded better
though that's not really a reason to downvote
 
The last message is the best wording I can think of without going nuts with hair splitting.
I feel that "tl;dr" barrier often.
It's like people open browser after disabling their reading skills.
 
nwp
@EuriPinhollow that picture, "naturally distorted" by 25 seconds as a comparison would have made the answer awesome because you could actually see how much distortion is expected from movement of the stars and then you can talk about the cause of the rest of the distortion, if any
 
Are you sure that you follow? OP stitched image from multiple exposures and got traces.
Usually people stitch exposures of sky when the pole is in sight and they do not experience geometry change to this extent.
 
nwp
guess I'm not really following, but showing the expected distortion based on the movement of the starts still seems like a great addition to the answer
 
I think that I will download a free star navigation program and compare geometry of adjacent sectors.
This kind of defect cannot appear if camera is pointed at the pole because the geometry does not change.
 
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