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11:00 AM
@daknokt: That essentially matches my experience
 
Ell
It shouldn't be that way though
 
I think the mistake lots of people make when making a cross platform library is designing for only the lowest common denominator
 
Ell
It should be easy! :@
 
Which means it will suck
@Ell: Clearly, it isn't.
 
Ell
i know :L
 
11:01 AM
If only OSes used same libraries
 
GUI code is the most non-portable thing you can write
 
Ell
@Insilico what do you mean lowest common denominator?
 
If you want to create a decent GUI application, rewrite the GUI for all platforms you want to support, and use those platforms' toolkits. So for Mac OS X one uses Cocoa, for Windows one uses Windows Forms (or whatever you use for Windows), etcetera…
 
Ell
brb
 
@daknokt: I agree. The little library toolkit I written just makes that job simpler
Each OS have their own UI guidelines
Which makes UI code inherently non-portable
 
11:02 AM
eh
 
Java is an attempt to make non-portable UI code portable
 
some of the best UIs have nothing to do with the OS guidelines
 
which is why they look like shit
 
for example Google Chrome
 
Chrome does the fuck what it wants
 
11:04 AM
@DeadMG: Of course everything I say includes an implicit footnote *except for exceptions
 
If I were to write a full scale C++ program with a GUI for windows, I'd probably use WPF & Visual C++
 
WPF is one of the most overengineered things I've ever seen
Why the hell is the class hierarchy for WPF ~10+ levels deep?
 
Say what you want about .NET, but I'd rather that stuff that Qt or worse Win32 calls
 
Ell
UI should be portable - the three main pc platforms (linux, mac, windows) all support the same set of features
I like .net
 
@Ell: They sure as hell don't support the same set of features
 
Ell
11:05 AM
But then again I like win32 calls xD
 
Except for dead obvious things like buttons and scrollbars
 
Ell
@Insilico the stuff you more likely need they do
 
Is there any JAVA Supporter here??
 
Ell
yeah - text, buttons, scrollbars, menus, tab pages, etc.
 
But they're all written completely differently
 
11:06 AM
@Ell: Yes, they have the same components
 
Ell
@james errrm no
 
@james no; they get banned.
 
lol
 
Hahaha
 
But they have subtle differences that make them work differently on different platforms
 
11:06 AM
saved by edits
 
@james Java sucks donkey dick and we all agree on that fact.
 
Ell
I like java too
 
I believe liking Java is also a bananable offence
 
hahahaha but i love JAVA because of its open source nature.
 
Ell
haha kidding
 
11:07 AM
Ell wants to be banned
 
Ell
nooooooo
 
oh, since when is Java open source?
 
@james: And lots of C++ implementations are also open source.
 
@james ehr… Open-source nature? You should try C++…
 
And I mean completely open source
 
11:08 AM
And best of all, C++ isn't tied to a single organization
 
All hail the almighty Oracle
 
The Standards Commitee! Communists!
 
@Pubby: Oracle can go suck it.
 
Ell
but worst of all, c++ implementations arent abi compatible >.<
 
so?
 
11:08 AM
@daknokt i am simple and also like simple things..:P
 
@james Java being open source is only a good thing if that source is worth doing anything with.
 
@Insilico And even if it were, that organization wouldn't be Oracle so it didn't suck anyway.
 
Use the same compiler for everything, don't bitch about it.
 
@james Java is simple?
 
@james: Java is the opposite of simple
 
11:09 AM
Java is worse than Malbolge qua simplicity.
 
Reading a file in Java requires like 3 different classes and objects
 
C++ is simple compared to Java
 
C++ requires only fstream
 
Do you think that anyone would want a 17" CRT monitor with a VGA cable you have to bend to make sure the colour are right?
 
Hmm, Java programmers went from worshiping the Sun god to worshiping the Oracle.
9
 
11:09 AM
With scratches on the screen and frame
Hahahhaha
 
@KianMayne 17" CRT? nope
 
@KianMayne Go get a better VGA cable?
 
@Insilico C++ doesn't require anything. You can use plain system calls if you want to…
 
@Insilico It's built into the monitor
 
@KianMayne screwdriver
 
11:10 AM
@daknokt: Should've said "Standard C++ programs only require fstream"
 
+ soldering iron
 
@Insilico nope they don't. C calls are fine too.
 
@KianMayne: Time to break out the soldering iron!
 
They only require fopen and fread, fstream drags in too much with it
 
@rubenvb: Fine. "Portable standard C++ programs only require fstream compared to Java"
 
11:11 AM
@Insilico nope, C is more/equally portable than C++.
 
Ell
c - portable assembler :D
 
Hmm I still doubt that I could get away with getting £5 for it
 
@rubenvb: The point is that C++ needs less stuff to do obvious things like file reading than Java
 
@KianMayne CRT's are meant to go to the trash these days
 
Also it whines really high pitched sometimes and doesn't stop until you degauss it a few times
 
11:12 AM
@Insilico I got that ;-) just keeping up the pedantic nature of this room
 
@KianMayne: Just give it to an electronics recycling place
 
@KianMayne forget the screwdriver. Get a sledgehammer!
 
Well I still need £26 till I can buy my new LCD
 
@KianMayne Sounds like DeadMG
 
@KianMayne: I wouldn't pay even that much for a 17" CRT monitor
 
11:13 AM
@KianMayne write software and sell it.
 
I am
 
There was a new upcoming virus for Mac OS X… which exploited a leak in Java. How surprising?
 
@Insilico It's £100, I've just saved £74 through a few PC repair jobs
 
Go do some McDonald's shifts or something.
 
Sell some cookies
 
11:15 AM
Or give them away for free
to me.
 
@daknok_t Not surprising at all
 
Ell
@KianMayne write a runescape bot and sell it to the masses
 
You can still exploit it with a bot?!
 
@Insilico you need little scouts girls for that to work. And that could be classified as pimping, and child labour, and pediphily
 
Oracle's JVM is a buggy, crashy, slow-starting, security-hole-ridden piece of trash
 
11:15 AM
Jesus nothing's changed
 
Ell
@KianMayne well if you write one you can :L
 
@Insilico And you believe the OpenJDK is better?
 
@rubenvb: No.
 
Cause that's really the only alternative
 
Ell
although last year the creator of RSBot moved over to jagex and almost all the bots dissapeared
 
11:16 AM
So we conclude that it's not the JVM's fault, but the language's?
Bazinga!
 
@rubenvb: I don't see how that follows from everything I've said.
 
@rubenvb meh the JVM is part of Java.
 
Ell
My implementation of the JVM is actually pretty good
 
Oracle's JVM is shit, and Java is shit
 
Oracle is shit.
 
Ell
11:17 AM
its call CPPJVM
 
OMFG
 
C++ is shit too, but with a well-designed library I can make it non-shit.
 
shit is also shit
and it stinks
 
Ell
only my imaginary language is any good
 
@TonyTheLion Inspiring words
 
Ell
11:18 AM
its called Cobalt
 
In PHP and Java it's damn near impossible to make them non-shitty languages
 
Ell
I though of the name and the logo and thats as far as i've got
 
Cobalt is cobol with a t?
 
@Pubby I know
 
Why the hell is MacTeX 1.7 GB in size? ><
 
Ell
11:19 AM
@daknokt all tex distros are massof
 
Is TeX that extensive?
 
Ell
apparently so - but I have no idea why it is so big
 
why are we language bashing? I mean, shitty languages are shit, and good ones are good! Cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it
14
 
@daknokt: I think that's actually pretty typical for TeX installations
A typical TeX installation comes with lots of packages
 
@TonyTheLion yeah, but which ones are good?
Saying "Haskell" is cheating.
 
11:20 AM
the good one's of course
Haskell :P
 
The MikTek folder I have on my machine is 2.15 GB
 
xD
 
Ell
I have an idea for a virus
 
you all need to create a shit language....what do you want to be in shit language any suggestions??
 
Ell
for virtual machines. it exploits virtual boxes mouse pointer integration :P
 
11:21 AM
@Ell write it…
 
@Ell: A virus for which only you know how to delete it then sell an antivirus solution for it.
 
@Ell Pointers are unsafe
 
Ell
:P
 
Sometimes I think that viruses are created by McAfee and Symantec.
 
@james My shit language is Java except everything is in caps
 
Ell
11:22 AM
I was trying to run a puzzle pirates bot in a virtual machine
 
@james: We don't need to create a shit language. Sun/Oracle has done that already
 
Ell
and to my astonishment - it somehow moved the host mouse pointer :O
 
@Insilico Broaden your horizon, get out more. Plenty of shitty languages waiting for you to discover :)
 
@sehe: Not sure if I want to discover them. :-P
 
@Insilico why you people are so much against JAVA??
 
11:25 AM
@james because Java is shit, we told you already.
 
@james: It's all a show, really. :-)
 
So much circuit analysis in this course D:
 
@TonyTheLion because language bashing is fun! :D
 
@Insilico No it's not.
 
@rubenvb: shhh!
 
11:26 AM
Java is what makes my Digital cable TV set-top box so damn slow
I'm serious
 
@KianMayne: Did you cover Thevinin equivalents yet?
 
It runs on friggin' Java
 
@Insilico Yeah :)
 
@rubenvb: And because it starts up so damn slow you can't turn it off
And turn it back on in a reasonable amount of time
So it's on all the time sucking electricity. >_<
@KianMayne: What about operational amplifiers?
 
@Insilico no, I can't turn it off because there's programmed recordings in it, and it won't turn itself off in some easy-wake-up mode cause the software sucks.
 
11:28 AM
@rubenvb: I swear it takes 10 minutes for my cable box to boot
 
Why is the friggin' cable signal encrypted in Belgium?!?! I'd have had a Media Center PC a long time ago.
 
I don't know what the hell it's doing to take so long
 
XBMC ftw!
 
I want these companies to just give me a friggen decoder and use my significantly more superior computer as the entertainment box
 
@Insilico No, we've done Digital stuff with MOSFETs, all the different methods of circuit analysis including non-linear business, dependant sources & amplifiers (based on MOSFETS)
and I'm on the MOSFET amp homework
 
11:29 AM
@KianMayne: Ah, okay. But did you ever cover op-amps?
That's one of the first things you learn, I think
 
We will
 
Ah, okay
 
I'm on week 5
 
op-amps are really cool devices :-)
 
My physics professor mentioned them when I had this resistive mixer question
 
11:31 AM
@KianMayne: Your prof was probably alluding to the summing amplifier
This article illustrates some typical applications of operational amplifiers. A simplified schematic notation is used, and the reader is reminded that many details such as device selection and power supply connections are not shown. Practical considerations Input offset problems It is important to note that the equations shown below, pertaining to each type of circuit, assume that an ideal op amp is used. Those interested in construction of any of these circuits for practical use should consult a more detailed reference. See the External links and Further reading sections. Resist...
As you can see, op-amps can do lots of stuff
They're probably only second to microcontrollers/CPUs in their versatility IMHO
 
I just had a brain fart and couldn't understand why my answer was wrong when I realised that I was meant to be typing in INPUT voltage not output
@Insilico is gain always positive?
Even though it's an inverting amp?
 
@rubenvb you mean digital television?
 
@KillianDS yeah
 
11:46 AM
that's quite obvious: so you you're not just able to tap it and watch television without paying
 
@KillianDS you pay for cable anyways.
But then you can only receive two channels digitally and unencrypted.
 
no you don't
 
You need their decoder to watch the rest digitally.
@KillianDS euh, yeah, €14 per month
 
really, I don't know why everybody thinks that, but if you get an internet only subscription, you don't pay cable. And there do exist old decoders that were people's property (not telenet's) that you can use for that purpose
 
@KillianDS but I still can't use a Home theater PC with DVB-? card to watch digital TV
Plain and simple proprietary lock-in
Every LCD TV even has the necessary digital receiving stuff built-in, but you can only watch 2 channels with that.
 
11:49 AM
yeah, I agree it's bad, but that's the way digital video signaling is going everywhere. It's the same with blu-ray and it's decoding certificates
 
@KillianDS You can use any decoder you want in the UK.
in the Netherlands there's more freedom too
Heck, Germany and France is equally more free.
 
@rubenvb Are you sure that is possible with every operator? I sincerely doubt that
Most of the time when people in belgium complain and compare with "It's better abroad" the comparisons are with small operators that aren't the major players in that country. If you compare telenet to for example DT,BT, KPN, ..., you end up with many similar policies (some better, some worse). You can argue however there is a lack of small operators in Belgium, which is a problem indeed
 
@rubenvb For 'Freeview' digital (quite a range of channels) but for our main 'cable' provider (Virgin Media) and Sky they have their own decoder boxes
 
at least you have a choice.
That's my point. Nothing more. We're stuck any way you put it.
Only the (A/V)DSL market is free in Belgium.
 
11:54 AM
@rubenvb yeah, that is indeed correct and a huge problem
 
And Freeview looks pretty sleek from here :p
 
@rubenvb free is also kind of a misnomer there. Belgacom has to share their infrastructure indeed, but can charge such ridiculous fees for the use of their infrastructure that they still can force fees to a certain level.
 
@KillianDS Ever heard of EDPnet? They're damn good in comparison to other DSL providers IMHO.
Although I agree that I believe the wholesale prices are way too high.
fraunhofer diffraction for relativistic electrons! Yay!
 
@rubenvb yeah I know them, and some other alternative providers also, it's sad they aren't more popular.
 
I'm getting 50Mbps download by December, for free. Yay!
 
12:01 PM
And you actually get that speed with VDSL?
 
I have 30 Mbps now and am at a steady 20.
So I gather 50'll get me 40.
 
You're in a city center :)?
 
Does std::array start out filled with default inits?
 
Kinda
I think the distribution box is about 100m from my door
yes, I feel damn fortunate :D
 
I have fiber, so there ;)
 
12:05 PM
@jalf congrats, you have a super-fast but likely very oversubscribed connection :)
 
oversubscribed?
What is that?
oh, you mean if all their subscribers decided to use all the available bandwidth all at the same time, it'd be a problem?
 
yes
in my experience even VDSL and cable oversubscribe most aggregations routers today, so fiber is not really that huge a thing towards home users.
 
well, I get the speed I'm paying for, so however much they oversubscribe, it's not enough to be noticeable :)
 
nice :)
 
Telenet Firbernet isn't oversubscribed, they limit it themselves I think.
And I haven't experienced any problems with EDPnet. So switch!
:P
 
12:15 PM
@rubenvb believe me, they oversubscribe, it's simply too costly to give everyone that dedicated bandwidth while most users won't do anything more intensive than watch a youtube stream from time to time.
 
@KillianDS Yes, but they do that with every type of connection. That's kind of irrelevant
 
Well, oversubscribed for me would be that you experience non-Telenet induced slowdowns. As they never let it come to that because they crank your connection down regardless, I'd say they're just being assholes. But that's probably a childish way of putting it. (in other words: yeah, ok, I believe you ;-))
 
what's interesting is whether they oversubscribe enough for it to ever actually limit your bandwidth
 
@jalf actually, it's mostly the case in access networks. For backbone connections a lot of other factors come into play, most often there the "redundancy" is oversubscribed (e.g. you have some redundant links, but you also use them as active, so that you do not have 100% redundant capacity).
@jalf Of course that depends on the operator, but I guess it happens yes
 
@KillianDS I'm talking about every connection to the end user
 
12:19 PM
@jalf Ah okay, misunderstanding then, yeah, that's more or less what I'm saying :)
 
You typically see it in action a few times a year, even. Some big event occurs, and everyone decides to text or make a phone call, and the network basically comes crashing down. The same is true for dial-up, ADSL, VDSL, cable, fiber and whatever else you're using
So I don't really see why you'd call out fiber as being especially crippled by it. In my experience it's not. Maybe ISPs run things differently where you're from
 
@jalf yes indeed. I remember that the mobile network here severly crashed at obama's inauguration speech :P
 
and the disaster at Pukkelpop
except Base.
Which was cool. My mobile provider was organizing a bunch of help-each-other stuff in the chaos.
via twitter and Facebook.
Why can't I edit my own comments after the grace period?
I just noticed a bunch of crappy typos
 
because it wouldn't be much of a grace period otherwise ;)
 
@jalf Ah, why I take fiber is, suppose a typical aggregation router has 100Gbps and terminates 10k users on this, it has on average only 10mbps for every user. Now, using fiber will not magically increase this capacity. So if you really want to provide higher speeds in general, without simply oversubscribing even more, you have to lower the user density on your aggregation router, which is quite an expensive investment.
 
12:25 PM
@KillianDS but that is assuming that the router is actually the bottleneck
 
Combine that with cable and vdsl technologies capable of getting to 100mbps also, and I really don't think FTTH is that big of a thing
@jalf I work on one, I know it is :P
 
@KillianDS again, if the end result is that the user gets the bandwidth he pays for, I really don't see how it can be
 
@jalf My best guess is they currently still hope most users will not actually use that bandwidth (which is still a fair assumption)
 
@KillianDS Which is exactly my point. As long as most people don't actually use that bandwidth, it isn't a bottleneck
 
and okay, edge routers speed also increases, but it's not that huge
@jalf yeah, but as long as most people don't actually use that bandwidth, fiber is also useless :P
 
12:27 PM
@KillianDS That's not what I said
Note the most. In practice, most people don't use all their bandwidth all the time, and thus, even though a line is oversubscribed, no one notices, because when you occasionally try to use all your bandwidth, it is available
because others aren't using theirs at that time
end result: there is no bottleneck preventing me, the end user, from getting the bandwidth I paid for
 
same as a bank lending out your savings
 
The theoretical case where everyone decides to pull 100mbit/s at the same time is completely irrelevant
 
as long as they have enough capital, you never notice that your money is being lent out
 
@jalf that's the point, it isn't irrelevant, average user consumption increases at a higher rate than most providers can follow
 
@KillianDS So far, most providers have been able to keep up
at least here
 
12:29 PM
@DeadMG remember 2008 :P?
 
@KillianDS You mean that, in a case where the precondition I stated is not true, then it doesn't work. Congratulations?
@jalf In my experience here, most providers have not been able to keep up.
 
Virgin Media are probably the best here, but we have had trouble with them
 
the problem is that a lot of our country is still dependent on the old telephone networks which cannot carry significant bandwidth, so we have to replace all our infrastructure with fibre
 
This ^
 
@KianMayne Yeah, Virgin are the best here I think
 
12:31 PM
@DeadMG It wasn't really a contradiction to what you say, it was more in general an addition that this model can fail, and fail badly. It is the same for access speeds (even though that will not ruin people's savings). I agree fully with what you say
 
they're spammy bastards, call you up all the time, mail you endlessly
but they offer great speeds at a reasonable price
 
lol
spam for speed!
 
well, in practice, I, and everyone else I know on fiber, actually, in the real world, get far faster speeds than anything they could get with DSL. So however oversubscribed the connection may be, it's nowhere near enough to render fiber a not-big-deal
here, at least. I have no clue about the situation in Birmingham, Tanzania, Korea or Texas
 
Korea
very small country, high density
they have an obscene connection there
 
@DeadMG which one of them? ;)
 
12:33 PM
in South, anyway
 
Also they tried to say that because we were getting like 20.1Mb/s that we'd used too much and they were reducing us to 5Mb/s which was fucked up
 
but in the UK, only fibre offers decent speeds
the rest is the same 300kbs we had in 1998
 
Like 'Up to 22Mb/s' averages at 8
 
to be quite damn honest
 
Or 10Mb/s is 3Mb/s which is bull
 
12:34 PM
I buy 30Mb/s from Virgin, and I actually get something in the range of 35-40Mb/s
and I can totally see why they're going to double my speed for practically free
they're totally trashing all the other ISPs in this regard
 
Haha
 
Awesome
how much data you get and at what price?
 
But seriously even if you care about how the customer support is crappy or how they don't know how to talk to each other, it's still worth the speed
@rubenvb All unlimited
 
for?
 
@rubenvb I can't remember the limits, but they are very large
I did 800GB in one month and no throttling or anything
 
12:37 PM
1 sec, I have a spreadsheet that accounts for discounts and averages it out per month over a year
 
Virgin media is also quite nice in rolling out new technologies.
 
You think they'd be willing to pull a cable over/under the channel?
 
@rubenvb How do you think the Internet to the USA works?
 
30Mb/s (their lowest speed), with average 30.64Mb/s actual speed, averaged over the 18 month contract is £26 a month
 
they have a gigantic-ass cable running under the sea
 
12:40 PM
No, I mean Virgin Media pulling a cable to my home
Duh!
 
Haha I read that as gigantic ass-cable
 
@DeadMG magic fairy dust?
 
lol
the capacity between New York and London is about 15Gb/s, IIRC
 
Gb/s = 1/8 GBps?
 
and the bandwidth used by PornHub at peak is about 20Gb/s
just for reference
 
12:42 PM
@rubenvb Correct
 
Yay. Can I have teh cookiez now?
 
so that's only counting the cable(s) directly between new york and london, I assume? Because I know the total bandwidth between Europe and America is quite a bit bigger
 
Btw 60Mb/s - £29.32, 100Mb/s - £35.15
 
@jalf Yes, I think so.
also, I'm not sure, but they might also use satellites for some of the higher-latency traffic
 
@DeadMG didn't they put a new cable a while back, to reduce latency between stock eschanges?
 
12:44 PM
@KillianDS That's probably the cable we're talking about
 
@KianMayne that's MBps or Mbps?
 
Mbps
7.5MB/s
 
nobody uses bytes per second to measure their internet connection
it's all in bits per second
 
Ah, by the end of the year, EDPnet will have 50Mbps (effectively 35-40) for €35/month
 
bytes per second is only useful when you're doing something that's explicitly in bytes, like downloading a file
 
12:45 PM
yet bytes is what you see in the browser
 
> useful when you're doing something that's explicitly in bytes, like downloading a file
 
yeah, still... it means a lot to me when measuring speed.
That's all I'm sayin'
 
well, IMO, Mbps makes more sense, because nobody uses 7bit bytes anymore or anything like that
but for various historical reasons it was always in bits/sec and that is the standard measurement
 
@rubenvb oh, that you shouldn't do at all. Browsers and the likes tend to be unclear about 1024 or 1000 multiples, so not a really great speed measurer
 
aaargh
You speak to the Buddha, you shall not contradict him!
 
12:50 PM
@DeadMG By the way; from the Virgin Media site
> As an example, a size: XL customer on our 60Mb service can download 5,000MB between 4pm and 9pm on a weekday before they are traffic managed. [...] before a 5 hour temporary speed reduction was applied
 
yeah
I can totally believe that
 
@DeadMG hm, actually, on a lower level it's still done on group of bits that aren't multiples of 8 (64QAM works on 6 bits of data for example).
 
Also
> We moderate the total volume of file sharing traffic on our network between 5pm and midnight on weekdays and midday and midnight on weekends.
 
is boost::variant serializable?
that's the important question
 
3
Q: Is it safe to serialize a raw boost::variant?

bdonlanboost::variant claims that it is a value type. Does this mean that it's safe to simply write out the raw representation of a boost::variant and load it back later, as long as it only contains POD types? Assume that it will be reloaded by code compiled by the same compiler, and same version of boo...

 
1:00 PM
actually, never mind, I came up with a Smarter™ idea anyway
 
 
1 hour later…
Ell
2:26 PM
hi guys
 
hi
 
Ell
is there a programme i can get to browse what is inside a library?
as in a .so or .a, to see the functions et al
 
.a or .so is object files, probably if you Google "browsing object files" you may get your answer
 
Ell
kk
2
Q: How to view symbols in object files?

nakiyaHow can I view symbols in a .o file? nm does not work for me. I use g++/linux.

 
@Ell objdump
 
Ell
2:29 PM
yep :D thank you :)
 
Ell
2:40 PM
with a range based for like such:
for(auto j : myvec) { cout << j << endl};
should I still dereference j, like I would with an iterator? or is it automatically done?
 
done for you
 
Ell
okay :)
 
how do you create a precompiled header in VS?
not the standard "StdAfx.h"
 
3:04 PM
I think you can list them in the project options
 

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