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4:00 PM
All laptops suck.
 
demonstrably untrue
 
Apples last forever. A little more expensive up front, but I'm using a 4 year old machine now and see no need to replace it. The last one lasted almost 8 years, but that was a bit painful at the end.
 
@JohnSmith games or work?
 
won't be playing many games on it
if at all
mostly websurfing, flash gaming
coding
 
@Potatoswatter An Apple a day keeps the blue screen away.
 
4:03 PM
maybe flash development
won't be doing anything crazy like steam gaming
or buying AAA titles that demand GTX 9001's
 
@JohnSmith How about a used Thinkpad then? I have an X61 and I love it.
 
how long?
i've owned two thinkpads in the past and they both eventually deteriorated into unusuability
 
Quick question guys... In the forum, when you mark an answer as correct, it is it proper etiquette to upvote that answer as well or no?
 
@Potatoswatter I still hate MacOS, and even when I run windows on it, their windows drivers are absolutely lousy. I'm never buying mac again :(
Hardware rocks other than that though.
 
@MooingDuck Run windows under virtualization. As for gaming, no idea ;v)
 
4:08 PM
@mnort9 There's nothing requiring it.
It usually makes sense to do so, since if you mark it accepted, it was useful.
 
Ok, just wondering. Thanks
 
@Potatoswatter then I have to boot two operating systems, and I end up with the overhead of running a useless OS in the background
@Potatoswatter I admit that's an interesting workaround for the driver issue though.
 
@MooingDuck Windows doesn't reboot, it just sleeps. And gets paged out when you don't use it, and actually need the obscene amount of RAM that a modern machine has.
 
My laptop is 6 years old, not Apple.
 
@Potatoswatter Interesting proposal. (Except the paging doesn't apply, unless the Mac stuff can get paged)
 
4:17 PM
Happy 120,000th C++ question!
 
@JohnSmith only for a couple of weeks now :)
@mnort9 I always downvote an answer before I accept it ;)
 
@FredOverflow Those bastards, giving us acceptable answers, how dare they? DOWNVOTE ALL THE ANSWERS!
 
yes, yes, you did
 
I love how the drawing style makes that ambiguously a mop or a torch
 
4:22 PM
It's a mop in the original.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes sure it is
 
@MooingDuck Yeah… I'm a big fan. Where is her damn book already.
 
oooh, this is a rare 'treat' for you. I'm now at home
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I forgot to mention but here I think you forgot a link. I want to look now that I'm done.
 
4:27 PM
Horrible PP machinery, you say.
 
Quite.
 
any more laptop recs?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I seriously hope these people are being ironic
 
@thecoshman Not a chance.
 
4:29 PM
man
my poor octree
 
Meh, I need new headphones, left channel works only on some volume settings.
 
it's gonna have to collide with rays and spheres and frustums and bounding boxes
 
Maybe it's a crash test dummy.
 
@DeadMG correction, those things are going to have to collide with your octree!
@CatPlusPlus still not got my linux set up properly for audio over HDMI, so my pc can not actually control the output volume :S
 
4:31 PM
I mean hardware volume changing thingy.
Potentiometer, that thing.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes So AddCvQualifiers is the function qualifier version of AddCv right?
 
@LucDanton Yes, it transforms function cvs into "normal" cvs.
I feel at a real loss of vocabulary here.
 
huh... it seems I can, but I have to go into the volume management window thingy and select the HDMI channel... once I have updated form about half a year ago, I will sort that out!
@CatPlusPlus oh, that could be a pain to fix
 
Also meh, HDMI.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes WithCvQualifiers?
 
4:34 PM
HDMI + potentiometer = fail
 
Wait no. WithCvOf adds regular cv-qualifiers, WithCvQualifiersOf should add function qualifiers.
 
@CatPlusPlus TV has no DVI input, and fuck two cables!
 
@LucDanton Yeah, but isn't const in int const a cv-qualifier too?
 
I don't use HDMI.
 
Also, the Qual thing is just an encoded qualifier.
 
4:34 PM
My equipment is plain ol' unencrypted.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yes, but not the same kind. E.g. void (C::*const)() const has both kinds.
It's madness :v
@RMartinhoFernandes Any other type, where only its (toplevel) cv-qualifiers matter?
 
No idea.
But yes, I'll need proper names for some of this machinery.
 
What does it look like using mem_fun_overload_element? Is there a primary template with defaulted parameter?
 
it's so nice to have my linux PC back though :)
 
    template <typename T>
    struct mem_fun_overload_element {
        using type = mem_fun_overload_element_impl<ClassOf<T>, BareSignatureOf<T>, FunctionQualifiersOf<T>>;
    };
It's just to break down the member function type into signature + qualifiers.
Admitedly the class part was not necessary...
 
4:38 PM
Sure. What does a typical FunctionQualifiersOf<T> look like? I.e. you get const int for a const-qual'd member?
Time to write function_traits.hpp.
 
Hmm...
Why didn't I think of that.
 
What I though you did is
 
Man, I feel stupid.
 
There is a function qual <-> toplevel qual conversion to dispatch to the specialization, and the specialization restore that with a toplevel qual <-> function reverse conversion.
 
@LucDanton Right now, I get std::integral_constant<qualifiers, qualifiers::const_>.
 
4:39 PM
Okay.
 
Stupid, because I had to reinvent is_const and shit.
What was I smoking?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Pot?
 
The reason I thought you did that is some time ago we considered if the toplevel qualifiers aliases/metafunction should operate on function qualifiers as well.
Anyway, do you mind if I mention you in a comment?
 
That's okay.
(An SO comment or a code comment? I don't care either way.)
 
Code.
 
4:57 PM
if I have a new velocity and an old velocity with constant acceleration, I can just lerp between them, right?
 
awesum
 
oh dear... upgrading Ubuntu and currently it seems I have no fonts for nautilus, thus all I see is squares for all strings of text :S
 
welcome to Linux
 
wow! erm, when did newgrounds update there site?
 
5:07 PM
I have no idea how you guys manage to fuck up a distro like Ubuntu that is supposed to be usable by mortals.
 
package managers are not usable
 
they're usability for the 1990s
 
the new package manager is Google Chrome
it would be usability if you downloaded a package file, and then the OS automatically added that to a package manager
 
5:09 PM
well, for now I am going on the assumption that is just because it is upgrading releases
 
but having to know the magical command-line string for the program I want is absolutely not usability
 
@DeadMG There are graphical package managers, you know.
@DeadMG Mine does that.
 
I have tweaked a lot of things though... but I have no idea if that is why I am not getting fonts showing up
 
the only way in which they would be better, is if they would basically be duplicating the functionality of Google
 
@RMartinhoFernandes like they are any better
 
5:10 PM
but I already have Chrome and am not going to look in my OS for the search button
 
@DeadMG What functionality?
Those Chrome extension things?
 
the one where you put in "nvidia drivers" and it comes back with what you want
instead of having to know in advance that it wants "nvidia_drivers_current" or something
 
I have no idea what you're talking about. But then, I haven't owned a NVidia card in ten years.
 
when I was on Ubuntu
and I wanted to install the nvidia drivers- just an example program
then apparently, the "way to do it" is something like sudo -rf MAGIC_STRING_I_HOPE_YOU_DIVINED_FROM_THE_SKY
 
@DeadMG: I can barely even launch the command line on my Ubuntu, but my package manager seems to do all those things with a neat little helpful GUI.
 
5:13 PM
even the guy who was trying to help me couldn't get it
 
Also, the fact that NVidia likes to distribute their drivers as a shell script has no bearing on the usability of a package manager.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes No, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking- purely- about the suggested interface of the package manager.
 
@DeadMG use the GUI then
 
either I'm supposed to guess the arbitrary string that any given package is registered under, or, it's duplicating the functionality of Google in searching for what I want
 
In the episode I recall, you were having trouble running a .run file.
 
5:14 PM
searching is not an OS feature, it's a browser feature
@RMartinhoFernandes Very true. But apparently, that was my own fault for not getting the magic string and magically knowing to use the package manager via command line.
 
@DeadMG You were working outside the package manager.
 
yes
 
Also, package managers have search functionality.
 
but I'm not talking about that.
 
search is a browser only feature? really?
 
5:15 PM
Both in GUI and CLI form.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Chrome has search functionality. It's not going to occur to any user to look in their OS to search the Internet for packages.
 
So, no, you don't need to know magic strings.
 
they're going to look to their browser
because that's what you use to search the internet- a browser
 
@DeadMG It's not going to occur to any user to install software through their browser.
 
@DeadMG Because nothing else on the PC is, you know, integrated with the internet.
 
5:16 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Everyone on Windows seems to do it fine.
download executable -> install -> use
 
The windows ecosystem is horribly diseased, and that's why everyone gets viruses so often.
 
@DeadMG And everyone on Linux seems to do it fine too.
 
except for the part where Windows has an insanely huge market share compared to Linux
everyone on Linux does it fine because everyone else switched to Windows
 
@DeadMG same thing with my package manager, except not via browser, and download/install is one button
 
large market share =/= good usability, or intuitive usability
 
5:18 PM
@DeadMG Or the other way around.
 
possible
but considering that Microsoft charge a non-trivial sum for Windows, it's unlikely
you have to have something pretty bad that you literally can't give it away (where the serious competition is paid)
 
Using a package manager is as simple as "search -> check mark -> press button"
@DeadMG You can only switch from Linux to Windows if you start from Linux, you know.
 
Quality doesn't enter in to the popularity of something. Availability does. Social stigma does. Quality is a distant concern.
 
that's true
I admit that it's hardly easy to find a laptop or desktop which does not come with Windows
but, you know, that situation had to arise somehow, and I don't think that dodgy business practices account for all of it
 
@SamDeHaan the fact that linux has many driver issues compared to windows hurts though. And the fact that my programs don't run well on it.
 
5:20 PM
I don't think usability of package managers factors into it.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I agree with that.
 
@MooingDuck oh, definitely. I use windows the majority of the time myself. It's not because it is a better product though, it's because it's more widely supported.
 
My old job had no sysadmin, so I decided to set up an internal Wiki. So I popped open Ubuntu's package manager, asked for mediawiki, and boom, there was a slick wiki frontpage. But internal users can't be expected to use markup, so I searched the package manager again and installed a WYSIWYG onto the wiki server. The only CLI involvement was the interactive script that configured it.
 
@SamDeHaan I also find it (in general) easier to use, and has fewer issues with drivers.
 
Everyone uses Windows because everyone uses Windows
 
5:22 PM
This process was repeated for several other heavy-duty apps… there is no other OS that can make it so easy.
 
Okay atm I have FunctionQualifiers<std::add_const, void()> == void() const.
 
So don't complain about wanting to go through the browser and find your own binaries.
 
google.com -> "mediawiki" -> download
 
Now to make FunctionQualifiers<std::decay, T> work.
 
@DeadMG How's that so much more usable?
 
5:24 PM
@DeadMG That's already 3 steps and you're not halfway there.
3
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Because I use the same portal for everything.
 
You're also forgetting the tedious, open > next > i agree > next > next > next > next > finish.
 
need games/music/porn/programs/whatever? always the same place, platform independent
 
@LucDanton just in time to star that. Going for my choir rehearsal :)
 
@RMartinhoFernandes > uncheck "install desktop shortcuts" > uncheck "install yahoo toolbar"
 
5:25 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes but with out all that clicking of 'next' how will you know you are installing something?
 
@MooingDuck Oh, that.
 
@Potatoswatter Pretty sure that you didn't count open package manager -> mediawiki -> download as separate steps
 
@sehe I'd rather have a fast lazy-eval EDSL and slow n-ary visitation (for n > 2) tbh. Oh well, it's a work in progress.
 
but in any case, those steps are really very fast- and as I mentioned, they have critical advantages
such as being in the same place whatever I want, whenever I want it, from wherever I want it
using the software of my choice
 
next > next > next > next has critical advantages?
 
5:26 PM
@DeadMG Actually, it being a server OS, I think it might have asked me if I wanted mediawiki. In that case there was no search.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Just push "enter" five times in two seconds.
 
Well, it has. I've had people ask me stuff on the order of "hey, is installing X easy? Just next, next, next, right"?
@DeadMG That's not an advantage.
 
But critically the package manager is the same application as the initial installer.
 
I'd rather pay those two seconds every program I install than not see the options those couple of times I need them
 
oh man! upgrade wants to change my pulse config file. I'm going to have to r-learn wtf I did in the first place
 
5:27 PM
I also don't know the advantage of > uncheck "install desktop shortcuts" > uncheck "install yahoo toolbar".
 
but the main advantage is that I can use Google or bing/yahoo/whatever every time from any computer to search for anything
 
That's a main advantage to you, maybe, but separation has a lot of advantages too.
 
@DeadMG FTR, for some distros you can also use the same process to install packages directly from the browser.
 
package managers are only good for installing applications under Unix
 
I wouldn't install webapp from repo.
 
5:28 PM
SuSE has something like that.
 
@DeadMG There are package managers for windows as well
 
Package managers are bad because you don't have to use browser to search for stuff?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Another reason to skip Linux. Wayy too many distros. Although, admittedly, I am not on the up and up about the differences, I don't feel keen about reinstalling my OS repeatedly to find out
 
I don't really follow arguments here.
 
@CatPlusPlus Apparently, yes.
 
5:30 PM
@DeadMG but that is what they are for! they manage what packages you have installed!
 
How long you've been using Linux, @DeadMG?
 
@CatPlusPlus Well, there isn't much argumentation.
 
@CatPlusPlus Using browser is great
 
@CatPlusPlus There is no real argument. He's saying "something" to each argument in order to pretend that he is being reasonable, but there's no actual cognition.
 
I like it
 
5:30 PM
I don't.
I hate browsers and everything related to browsers.
Comes with the job, I suppose.
 
Chrome is the same point of entry for anything I might want to download, ever, from any place
 
you are moaning about something not having a feature it was never intended to have, and never should have
 
it's simple, and easy, and platform-independent
 
If the whole argument is 'installing from the browser is great' then yeah some distros have that.
 
Installing stuff is never platform-independent.
 
5:31 PM
at least finding it could be
 
Click on link => package manager appears, one-click to proceed with the actual installation, then done.
 
There's so much additional noise in a browser, that a specialized tool like, say, a package manager for packages, or steam/etc for games, is significantly more usable.
 
Determining latest version from within browser is sometimes such a pain.
Package manager knows what to install outright.
 
What about updates?
 
The package manager has the highest level of permissions. The browser has the lowest.
 
5:33 PM
How do you update stuff on Windows?
 
Manually, or if you're lucky, it might update itself.
 
Is it as easy as "click update > yes"?
 
@CatPlusPlus or compatible version. If there's 32, 64, 12 distros of linux, windows, mac. Yes, if you know what you're doing it's simple, but it's still not necessary to parse all that extra information.
 
perhaps I missing something, but to me there is a difference between a package manager and a program that indexes packages and interfaces with a package manager for you
 
@RMartinhoFernandes most people don't. And otherwise it's application-specific.
 
5:34 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes and package managers tell you when it's out of date!
 
@thecoshman You'd call the second a package manager implemented in terms of another package manager I take it?
 
GUI for package manager core is still part of a package manager.
On Debian-likes, apt-get isn't the core, either.
It's a frontend to dpkg.
 
What is the difference? Both moo like a duck.
 
Well, @thecoshman says there's a difference. :P
 
@CatPlusPlus Isn't there more than that though? apt-get accesses the repo and e.g. pulls the package from there (or some underlying tool does that on its behalf, I don't know); dpkg installs them.
 
5:36 PM
properly packaged linux software does just install with the package manager when clicked
 
It's tools all the way down.
2
 
For instance man dpkg doesn't appear to mention repositories at all?
 
It's UNIX. Of course there's 20 tools doing one thing at the time glued together with large amount of Bash and hackery.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes No, three layers down it all turns back into turtles.
 
ooh, just had my cups configured
 
5:39 PM
Woah, printers.
I guess that also counts for usability.
 
oh man, now I need to arse around with grub
I hate upgrading
 
Use a rolling release distro :P
 
@thecoshman There's a package for that. :P
 
Outdated repo packages are annoying.
 
fuck it! let's go with a new grub file and hope for the best!
 
5:41 PM
That sounds silly.
 
What do you need with GRUB?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Ubunutu.. but I am not sure for how much longer
@CatPlusPlus dual boot
 
To change kernel you modify filename in one place.
There are tools to generate dualboot configuration.
AFAIR.
 
though I guess I could just use BIOS to select HDD but I like using BURG
bells and whistles you know
 
AFAIK BIOSes can't boot Linux directly.
 
5:43 PM
last I checked, no. But they can select which HDD to boot from
 
BIOS is crap
 
And that HDD has GRUB on it, right?
 
You always need a sane bootloader to take over.
 
one (the default) is Ubuntu, the other is windows
 
@CatPlusPlus Like NTLDR, right?
 
5:44 PM
Or GRUB.
 
BIOS is just B
 
BIOS is ancient and needs to die.
 
if you use GRUB, you have to slap BURG on top. Those few seconds of time out where you select which OS need to prettied up :P
 
Fuck this. Vim took about four seconds to scroll all the error output of GCC past.
@thecoshman What?
 
Scrolling my TeX file was lagging with syntax highlighting on.
 
5:46 PM
Is this BURG a thing?
@CatPlusPlus In this case, it was not vim's fault.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes it's a fancy pants GUI for GRUB, pointless really
 
@thecoshman Waste of time.
 
Stupid eye candy.
 
unless you are dealing with some one who is scared of a screen of text during boot up
 
5:48 PM
Last time I dual booted I got the partition numbers wrong and spent two months booting Windows through GRUB's command-line.
 
Optimise the boot time.
 
Every I booted into Linux I forgot I needed to fix the GRUB configuration.
 
@thecoshman It's not that bad, there are colours.
 
is it possible to get windows to edit the GRUB config?
 
It's a text file.
 
5:49 PM
true enough
but is windows able to read/write to it?
 
@thecoshman Yes, you just need something that can read whatever filesystem you've got it on.
There are several thingies for that.
Though notepad will probably fuck it up, what with CRLFs and crap.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes and with that (probably very small amount of) potential effort, I give up :P
especially for how little I would use it
yay! upgrade done! time to restart :D
 
I can't stand package managers.
I want to create an LFS based on GoboLinux.
 
god damn upgrade stole gnome!
 
Oh god, not another browser fanboy!
 
5:58 PM
well, seeming as I have done one upgrade, may as well go straight into the next! probably foolish, but oh well
 
@thecoshman be careful with that upgrade. you may end up with gnome3
 

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