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01:00
@Knownasilya: Actually starting to write the code helps a lot
If you search for jobs there are hundreds if not thousands of results
Well, i'm working on the class diagram..so no code yet
and millions of applicants
@Knownasilya Class diagrams are a waste of time.
you have to be good
yes
yes
01:00
@DavidFrank: And I can guarantee you they're all being reviewed by HR monkeys running a find tool for keywords
but not "I'm a graduate" good, or even "I'm a really good graduate from a good university" good
but "I've been employed for 10 years in this sector" good
@Insilico Oh yeah, and that.
I dont agree
There are jobs with lower salaries
So the people that actually get interviewed are the ones with the most keywords
And graduates with no or few experience should apply for that
@DavidFrank And thousands of applicants per position
those jobs, they exist, but nowhere near in the kind of quantities that are actually needed
01:02
would the best way be to create an object of that class, and have like a constructor in that Item class that creates a generic item and then use getter/setters to update the best way?
U have >53K rep on so
That must mean, ur good
I am
So I dont know why ur worrying
@DavidFrank: It only means he's been here for a long time
He's good, but that's reflected in his answers
Not his reputation points
It means that too
01:03
because that HR monkey running "grep" isn't gonna know or care what SO is or what 53k rep is
He doesnt have to know
Xeo
Xeo
Damn, I got lost in space again.
they're gonna pass because I have no years of professional experience
U must have a great knowledge
@DavidFrank And that's the problem with HR
01:03
@DavidFrank I do.
but here's the problem
Xeo
Xeo
@DeadMG Space, not tabs.
you can only get accredited for knowledge that other people asked you to have beforehand
if you say
"Well, my course doesn't include C++, but I'mma become an EXPERT!"
you know who's gonna notice? nobody
what do u mean by course?
course at the uni?
but if you say "Well, my course includes hand-executing LR for a trivial, trivial grammar, and I scraped through", then you're the winner!
@Xeo Damn markdown
@DavidFrank: Yes.
01:05
it's pathetic
Xeo
Xeo
@DeadMG Without an interesting sounding article to link to, I won't click TVTropes links
the advertisements for positions say they want creative, independent people, but if you actually show any independence, you get buttfucked
Then you should make some own projects and use them as references
what about that?
@DavidFrank: Again, depends on the HR monkey
There are some that give a damn
@Xeo I wasn't hoping to actually trap you, merely pointing out a resemblance between being lost in the infinite depths of space, and being lost in the infinite depths of TVTropes.
01:06
And some that use grep
@DavidFrank And where am I gonna live, and how am I gonna earn money, during that time?
@DeadMG: I think David Frank meant to say "projects during your stay at the university"
You should do them now
While ur at the uni
@Insilico yep
At my university I have to take a two-quarter long class called "Senior Design"
Shuld not be that big, few thousand lines or so
01:08
Where they make us design something on our own
It's the closest thing to getting credits for personal projects
@DeadMG im concerned that if you are really good and skilled and things even without work experience you will get a job
Maybe without high salary at first
But you can get a pretty high salary in a year's time or so
@DavidFrank: How optimistic that statement is depends on the company :-)
Lots of people are surprised to know I'm not actually a CS major.
Xeo
Xeo
@DeadMG I think you still got me. I searched for a nice space trope and clicked one of the subtropes.
All the companies need good manpower
@Xeo: Is there a tree of every single trope on TvTropes? I would love to see it
@DavidFrank: But lots of companies are utterly incapable of finding/hiring them
01:12
hmmm
current state of renderer: 2842 lines
my Wide project's state was, at last count, about 4k, I think
plus I'll have a couple k more in the specification
Wait those plus signs do nothing! >_<
Xeo
Xeo
@Insilico lol
THE PLUS SIGNS WERE LIES
but
this chat is such a troll
01:15
I really need to complete a project, instead of having two half-done projects
i keep thinking i got a new answer for my question
@DavidFrank Don't ever, ever click a TVTropes link.
why not?
@DavidFrank: You never heard of TVTropes?
01:17
You know how on Wikipedia you read an article
but then you click on one of the links to another article
then you keep doing it
TVTropes is like that but x100000000000000000000000000000 times worse
how?
how many questions do u guys answer on avg?
like per day or per week
@DavidFrank Because there's so many tropes there. :-)
@DavidFrank: Depends on how busy I am
I dunno, I don't keep count.
Xeo
Xeo
Lately? 1 per day, maybe.
But that may be because of Minecraft
01:21
I don't answer many at all
@Insilico whats ur job?
the truth is that these days, when I have a problem, I rarely get help by asking a question
because there's hardly anybody on the site up to answering it that isn't right here in this chat
@DavidFrank: A third-year student pursuing a bachelor of science degree in bioengineering
so for me, it's a tad pointless
plus, you can escape the Meta Police here
@DavidFrank: So it's quite different from CS
01:24
@Insilico
i see
cpx
cpx
hm
Do you lose rep if ur question gets downvoted?
I know more C++ than lots of other CS students though
c++ is not all cs is about
:)
@DavidFrank: Yes.
01:25
Personally i hate c++
I know I know more C++ than lots of CS students because I tutor them on a weekly basis. :-)
its just a f*cked up lang
@DavidFrank: Yeah, it is a fucked up language
C++ is the best of a very bad lot
It's better than Java or PHP, which is even more fucked up
01:26
C++ has good parts and bad parts, but most of the other languages are just bad parts, so...
i like the only oop way java works
i like oop
dude
only OOP is fucking moronic
have you seen all those Listener classes, for one?
Because one size does not fits all.
@DavidFrank: OOP is one of those things that people seem to use too much of
01:26
or how about the Math class? totally OOP there, taking a namespace and calling it a class
Sometimes you need other ways to solve a problem.
ok
you need functions
std::function >>>> All those shitty Listeners
In Java, you often need to use some workaround (usually called a "design pattern") to compensate for the lack of features..
01:27
but oop enables u to do that
no
Java restricts you
pointlessly and repeatedly
want values? tough shit, GC only, bitch
ok, i dont know java too much, im rather a c#-er
but
re-usability? whoops, we only ship the weakest generics possible
c++ with pointers and references ?
lambdas? what're those?
01:28
C++ has zero restrictions
thats just complete madness
even if such lack of restrictions cause you to shoot your foot off
@DavidFrank Not at all. They serve different purposes.
how come that in all the other prog langs only 1 is enough?
01:29
it isn't
simple as that
java, c#, php ...
@DavidFrank: Because C++ inherited a lot of crap from C
C# has pointers.
ok, not performance-oriented
that implies that those languages actually work
and they don't
01:29
c# does have pointers but you better not use them
especially PHP
And Java/C#-style references have much more in common with C++ pointers than they have with C++ references.
@DavidFrank C# has pointers and you use them all the time.
@DavidFrank That's the thing: sometimes, you need to use them.
in C#, Object o; is a pointer. They just don't call it that.
01:30
what?
sure
A C# reference is a pointer that disallows arithmetic.
i get it
in Java, when you do Object o = null; o.toString(); or something, you even get a NullPointerException
but in c# you would never write * s
i know
like you do in c++/c
the * is completely and totally irrelevant
it is a syntactic quirk and nothing more
01:31
Yeah, it could be ptr<Object>.
@DavidFrank: Did you look at the PDF link above? tinyurl.com/dont-use-pointers
Still doesn't change anything.
you could indicate a pointer as "KindlyFuckMyObject" if you wanted
same deal
A bit verbose, though.
yeah
true
01:33
Pointers suck because every time I see one I don't know whether I need to delete the fucker or not.
@Insilico Smart pointer -> problem solved.
Protip: only use smart pointers. Then, when you see a raw pointer, you know it's a non owning pointer, and as such you don't need to delete it.
@DeadMG: Oh, I know that. :-)
@EtiennedeMartel Exactly.
use smart pointers for all owning pointers, and then you know for sure all raw pointers are non-owning
what i like in c#/java style is that it completely hides pointers/references
01:34
@EtiennedeMartel: The thing is that Qt application code uses pointers all over the place
@DavidFrank It doesn't hide them at all.
so i only have to think of it as value-type or reference type
and people keep going to Stack Overflow and asking about them
Yeah, but Qt has its own memory management scheme.
and reference types are referred to by pointers.
01:34
It's a bit weird.
also, it's a fucking dumb thing
what do you mean it doesnt hide?
what, am I not smart enough to decide per usage where to allocate my type?
@DavidFrank Well, every time you pass in null, then that's a pointer.
or re-assign or anything
i know
@DavidFrank In C++, the "value or reference" thing is part of the object, not the type.
01:35
the semantics of the fact that it is pointed to are not hidden from you at all.
but when you pass an object it automatically gets passed by ref
and it's bloody stupid that the type designer decides where his type should be allocated
you dont have to think about it
At least C# allows you to declare new value types, which Java doesn't.
it should be decided per object
01:35
@DavidFrank: Yes you still have to think about it even in Java and C#
@DavidFrank Sometimes you need to think about it.
Or you get nasty memory leaks
what do u guys mean?
typedef std::shared_ptr<std::string> String;
problemo solvo
but i am talking about of the capabilities of the language itself
not the library
ok, you can do many advance things using the lib
but the language itself is rather a crap
01:38
@DavidFrank: The fact that I can implement something like that as a library is awesome
no
the fact that you can do it as a lib is great
That means I don't have to wait for the next version of the compiler to be able to use a feature, I can implement it my damn self
it means you're not fucked if the language doesn't provide it for you
one of my friends said and it is in fact true:
01:38
you want to use value types in Java? sorry, you're fucked.
all the languages are crap but c++ is still the best
in C++, you can at least get serious traction on solving the problem yourself
Still not as powerful as Lisp, though.
if you go for performance c++ is a must
@EtiennedeMartel: True, but the last thing I want to see is ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))‌​)))))))))))))))))))))))) :-P
01:39
but
@Insilico Ideally, you put a bunch of line breaks in there.
if performance is only a secondary requirement, you can go for script-type langs
@EtiennedeMartel: Of course, I'm just being an ass
php python
01:40
what about python?
@DavidFrank: Why would anybody not care about performance at all?
Anything PHP is good at, there's another language out there that's better.
It's the only thing computers are good at
Python is great.
Everything that a computer can do, a human can do as well
Just that a human does it slow as shit
01:41
As Jeff said, performance is a feature.
performance can be not so important
@DavidFrank: It does if you're writing a smartphone app
or a server cluster
or a game
or a compiler
Or if you want your program to not suck UI wise
if you dont have to calculate shortest paths on graphs size of 10e9, a bit worse perfomance might be enough
01:42
@DavidFrank: I write programs designed to simulate some physical phenomenon
@DavidFrank Unfortunately, that's not even close to it.
diffusion, fluid flow, etc.
Performance is absolutely critical
you need way less than 10e9 to notice the difference
thats ok
here's a simple fact- modern programs have to cope with large data sets
01:43
C++ gives you both performance and abstraction mechanisms
compilers have to compile millions of lines of code
Java gives me abstraction at the cost of performance
in some cases java can be even faster
more importantly, it gives you a shitty abstraction
in most cases its not the case ofc
01:43
@DavidFrank That's a myth.
C++ gives better abstraction mechanisms without sacrificing performance
Not only that a C++ program can be on whatever abstraction level I want
I can be down to the metal
c++ lacks some modern features or lets call it syntax sugar
what modern feature do you think C++ lacks?
Eh?
Java has no operator overloading. If anything C++ has more syntax sugar
most of them aren't worth the paper it would take to specify them
01:45
you have to include each header file you use
not to mention the whole templates thing, where Java's generics suck donkey dick and C#'s generics are hardly better
you dont have abstract keyword
And you don't have to include packages in other languages?
@DavidFrank: No need
@DavidFrank No, C++'s virtual serves the same purpose.
struct abstract_class
{
    virtual method1() = 0;
    virtual method2() = 0;
    virtual method3() = 0;
};
01:45
functions are not virtual automatically( i know, its coz of the performance)
performance is far from the only reason
implicit-virtual is a bad thing not just because of the performance cost
thats why i call it syntactical sugar
more like syntactical poison?
and in terms of syntactic sugar, how about access levels?
01:46
@DavidFrank: There's lots of functions where virtual functions make no sense
its more clear if you write abstract
in Java, you specify it again and again and again.
in C++, it's once
you specify what?
@DavidFrank What, one method without a body is less obvious than another method without a body?
@DavidFrank Access levels. public, etc.
@DavidFrank: Access modifiers. private, public, protected
01:47
ok, thats better
but
the abstract keyword is useful
how so?
C++ has a syntactic construct that is exactly the same
u dont have to see the inside of ur class
@DavidFrank: You don't in C++ either
in order to know u can make objects of it or not
@Insilico ?
hopefully, you would know in advance whether or not a class is abstract
you have to search for empty virtual functions
@Insilico PIMPL is digusting
@DavidFrank Or read the documentation?
And why is seeing the inside of a class so bad anyway?
its not that clear
private != prevent_other_people_looking_because_im_so_territorial_like_that
01:50
what do you say for 1000000 #include
learn to code?
more specifically?
@DavidFrank: If you have 1000000 #includes you're doing it very, very wrong
more specifically, why the hell do you have one source file that requires so much functionality?
split it up
im not saying 100000 #includes are in 1 file
01:52
then what's the problem?
in Java, you have about as many import statements anyway
i hate to think about which files i have to include
java style is not better at all
The guys in the Android room must be incredibly boring to flag that kind of message.
Should I put that as valid, invalid, or not sure?
nobody here thinks that #include is great
it isn't
but on the scale of #include vs "no lambdas, no useful generics, no value types, and a million other huge deficiencies", I'll take #include any day
Hell, even generics in Java isn't real generics
01:53
are there lambdas in c++?
It's something that's been bolted on for backwards compatibility
i didnt know about it
@DavidFrank: Yes.
i asked my teacher and he said no
C++11, also formerly known as C++0x, is the name of the most recent iteration of the C++ programming language, approved by ISO as of 12 August 2011, replacing C++03. The name is derived from the tradition of naming language versions by the year of the specification's publication. C++11 includes several additions to the core language and extends the C++ standard library, incorporating most of the C++ Technical Report 1 (TR1) libraries — with the exception of the library of mathematical special functions. C++11 was published as ISO/IEC 14882:2011 in September 2011 and is available for a fee....
01:54
he might have been wrong ofc
he was wrong
get the latest GCC, Visual Studio, ICC, Clang.. they all have lambdas
ok
a bit different topic if i might
how do u decide to declare sg on the heap or on the stack?
whether to use new or not
"Do I need this object after this function returns? Yes: heap. No: stack."
in java and c# its the same
not the same
but objects are always on the heap
so no need to think about it
which is a giant waste
01:57
@De
@DeadMG
my prob is: should a class store another class's reference or a pointer to it?
its not the same but similar question
@DavidFrank: Does the class own the other object?
not unless you know in advance it was heap allocated, usually
If there's ownership, use shared_ptr or unique_ptr
but you can say "Just don't destroy the other object first" and make the class's user think about it
@Insilico depends on the case
01:58
also, member references are generally not a good idea
all you have to do is say "Non-owning? T*. Shared ownership? shared_ptr<T>. Unique ownership? unique_ptr<T>."
then your problem, she is le solved

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