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9:00 PM
I had some 100PLZ coins.
 
@FredOverflow WTF?
 
@FredOverflow You're not trying to convince me that diarrhea is a figure of speech, are you?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes No, "riding the porcelain god" is.
 
I'm thoroughly confused.
 
9:02 PM
Apparently, "riding the porcelain god" means "having diarrhea".
 
Ah. Euphemism.
 
@6502 which one? off the cuff I'd say no
 
@CatPlusPlus another ugly lol
 
@CatPlusPlus eSATA was important, kinda, but less so with USB3 enclosures
 
9:04 PM
@sehe: the last one to first post... where I say that his mistake is an anecdotal proof that new rules are more complex...
 
Well, the only external drive I have is USB2/3 only, so.
 
@6502 It could also be due to lack of familiarity. But no, I don't think it's offensive.
 
@sehe: I don't mean to be offensive... but I often find my own posts a bit too harsh
 
Oh, my Linux installation runs without a swap partition. Is that a problem?
 
if you don't make it a problem, no
 
9:06 PM
@FredOverflow My swap partition only ever gets any use when I fire up DF.
 
@FredOverflow: not if you have 160Gb of ram... or if you're not using unity
 
I use Xfce and have 2 GB of RAM.
 
@6502 I don't think it is offensive, but it is cocky :) I can't really judge who's right but you appear to make genuine arguments (whether true or false)
 
Don't worry, Linux kernel is trigger-happy when it comes to OOM whether you have 0 bytes of swap or 10GB.
 
how do you live with a mere 2GB of RAM????
 
9:07 PM
It was always a dream of mine not to have swap space, but Windows XP wouldn't really allow it.
 
I'm always using like 5 of my 8GB of RAM
lol
 
@TonyTheLion One day at a time, Tony. One day at a time.
 
@tony: unity... i suppose :-D
 
Create 512MB of swap or so, it allows the system to free some RAM when unused.
 
9:07 PM
@6502 On the 'I often find my own posts a bit too harsh' that is easily fixable. I have learned to just reword before submitting the post. If I can't figure out a way to reword, I just delete :) (PS: that is on SO. Here, and if I'm very tired, I can be a bit curt)
 
Supposedly twice the RAM is recommended, but it doesn't help when you run out of physical RAM anyway.
 
I live with 2GB RAM!
Per CPU Core, that is
 
@TonyTheLion Windows?
 
fredrik@workhorse ~ $ free -m
             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
Mem:          2011       1946         65          0        792        380
-/+ buffers/cache:        773       1238
Swap:            0          0          0
 
9:09 PM
Also, I've decided to install Gentoo, if I manage to buy this thing.
 
@sehe: dual hexacore with hyperthreading?
 
I don't use Steam so often these days anyway.
And when I do, I don't work, obviously.
 
@TonyTheLion I'm always <2GB (not counting fs buffering) except when I create and run temp virtual machines entirely on tmpfs for @FredOverflow :)
 
we've a server at work where top doesn't starts because it complains the terminal doesn't have enough lines
 
htop > top.
 
9:10 PM
Is top an acronym?
 
Table of Processes.
 
that makes sense
 
It also has usability of a week-old turd.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Mmmm. The man page just claims 'top - display top CPU processes'
 
@sehe Maybe it was backronymed.
 
9:11 PM
@CatPlusPlus I find week-old turds pretty easy to handle.
 
@CatPlusPlus You mean, optimal?
 
@sehe FWIW, I didn't just make it up.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Maybe by you?
 
My OS teacher did.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Ok. Good teacher. He can stay
 
9:12 PM
i've read somewhere someone complaining that in school it makes little sense nowdays to care about the very special and just historical case of sequential algorithms
 
@TonyTheLion What exactly eats up so much space?
 
@6502 Nah. Just 4 cores. Poor me :) This is my workstation (Q9550). My mediacentre run i7-2600 (quad+HT) and my fileserver runs Intel D510
 
@6502 But sequential is much easier to understand. I think it still makes sense to start with sequential.
 
My lowly web/mail server does everything on a AMD Geode of nearly 4 yrs old. And 512Mb mem.
@FredOverflow Fward Sortreff?
 
@FredOverflow: soon we'll have quad-core bathroom lamps
 
9:14 PM
@FredOverflow In primary school :)
 
@6502 A lot of sequential algorithms are great for teaching algorithms though, and due to current processors having 4ish cores, you don't have to go far from them to be as parallell as the hardware can handle.
@6502 unlikely; very few people even have IP addresses for their lights so far
 
@MooingDuck No but they do have bluetooth, RF remotes and X11 protocols. Also, you mean you don't have IP's for your lamps yet :)
 
for sure I've problems wrapping my head about parallel processing... even simple things looks so weird
for example scan processing... for (int i=1; i<n; i++) v[i] += v[i-1];
 
@6502 That's what we have abstraction for (heed venerable Stroustrup's advice)
 
9:17 PM
0
Q: constexpr and bizzare error

smallBI'm having: constexpr bool is_concurrency_selected()const { return ConcurrentGBx->isChecked();//GBx is a groupbox with checkbox } and I'm getting error: C:\...\Options_Dialog.hpp:129: error: enclosing class of 'bool Options_Dialog::is_concurrency_selected() const' is no...

 
Link dropping!
 
@sehe nor does anyone I have met in person. I know they're out there, but those will become common before quadcores.
 
You didn' even fix he ags.
Frak.
 
@6502 I don't think that is parallelizable
 
@RMartinhoFernandes i added the c++ tag the same time you did
 
9:18 PM
@MooingDuck: me too. And we're both wrong.
 
apparently it merged the edits
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Ah, yeah, it does that.
 
@MooingDuck: see developer.nvidia.com/cuda-cc-sdk-code-samples (scan example)
@MooingDuck: not only can take advantage of parallelism ... it can also be solved optimally
 
@RMartinhoFernandes i voted @Seth down because he said one cannot dereference and call functions on it in constant expressions
 
@6502 er, is there a problem which can't be solved optimally?
 
9:20 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes my example demonstrated that such thing is possible
 
@jalf Humans.
 
I mean, surely that's what optimal means. It's hardly an optimal solution if it can't actually be done
 
@jalf: computing time = o(n)/number-of-cpus IIRC
 
@6502 ah right
 
guys...
gimme a riddle to fiddle
 
9:22 PM
@6502 That's linear speed up, right?
 
@JohannesSchaublitb: if the maintainer of Boost.Thread thinks that i=++i is UB in C++11... do you think it make sense to say that the new rules about UB are not more complex?
@RMartinhoFernandes: yes... i read (quickly) that paper but I still don't understand how it works
 
@6502 no, I think it means they are different than they were.
 
@6502 no i don't think so
tell him that the new rules make it defined
 
@RMartinhoFernandes: my mind simply sees that loop as sequential...
 
@6502 Where is the paper? All I can find is sample code, which I can't follow because I have zero CUDA experience.
 
9:25 PM
i don't see how the maintainer of boost.thread not knowing something means that something is more complex than another thing?
 
@MooingDuck My toilet already has an "I pee" address...
 
@JohannesSchaublitb: I mean just that someone with quite a bit of experience on C++ can get the validity of such a simple expression wrong under the new rules...
 
@6502 it just means that he hasn'T heard of it being defined now before or he has been misinformed
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Right, he should have said "guys!" first.
 
9:27 PM
there is much misinformation around. i remember a year ago i wrote on comp.lang.c++ that c++11 makes it defined and James Kanze trolled me for about 10 messages deep in that thread that I'm wrong
until i came up with a committee quote for him...
 
@JohannesSchaublitb: read its answer... he's not someone that doesn't know about the new rules, but someone that just got them wrong stackoverflow.com/a/9581666/320726
 
argh, for a compiler which prides itself on readable error messages, "Illegal instruction: 4" isn't very helpful
 
even the standard's editor Pete Becker said that the new rules do not change anything.. (or something along those lines)
but all that does not mean anything regarding the complexity of the new rules
 
@6502 probably because they changed. For instance, I write 2011 on my stuff all the time. That doesn't mean 2011 was a better year.
 
@6502 i don't think he has looked at the spec
 
9:29 PM
@jalf hehe
 
@JohannesSchaublitb: that's exactly my point. The new rules are too complex... before was "just don't dare do that"... now you have to do a mental topological sort on arbitrary order relations to see if something is legal
 
It's still "don't dare do that". The fact that i = ++i is now legal doesn't make it any better. It's still something you don't want in your code.
 
@JohannesSchaublitb: no idea... it's several years I'm not interested in the C++ standard docs any more
 
@6502 i don't know what point you refer to. and i don't think they are too complex
they are quite easy IMO. at least the (intra-thread) sequenced-before
 
@6502 I'm not sure I see how it is more complex when behavior is defined than when it wasn't. A big part of the reason why C++ is perceived as complex is precisely that so many things are not defined
 
9:31 PM
The rules are recent. You can't expect everyone to have already mastered them.
 
@6502 do you say that before you didn't know whether it was legal, and now you know but you have to think about it?
i don't see why that is bad
 
@RMartinhoFernandes: the problem is that sometimes (actually often) you don't have to deal only with "your code" but with also code from others. And you have to understand it. Before something like that was "this is illegal. end of debugging session" now is " ouch... let's sort this out..."
 
@6502 ah i didn't know his answer
 
@6502 before, you had to know that it was illegal. Now you have to know that it's legal. In both cases, you need to know the rules that make it so
C++03 seemed easier because you already knew the rules, so you didn't have to look anything up to determine that that code was UB
 
@RMartinhoFernandes yes
 
9:33 PM
but checking the rules was just as necessary then as it is today
 
@jalf: before the rule was trivial... "i=i++" ---> "two changes??? wtf? that's illegal". Now it's "i=i++" hmmm... it's illegal. "i=++i" hmm... this is legal instead. The problem is the "hmmm" part
 
@RMartinhoFernandes How about a = ++b when a might be an alias of b? Isn't it awesome that this does not trigger UB anymore?
 
@6502 On the other hand, now there are fairly simple and strict rules governing how operations are sequenced. You don't have to muck around with sequence points and the ridiculously underspecified semantics that came with it
 
@JohannesSchaublitb: "The rules are relatively straightforward:..." ... not bad in a post where they're not correctly applied...
 
These changes are also making C++ behave more like other languages which are commonly perceived as "easy". If you look up the C# or Java spec, they define these things much more like C++11 does than C++03
 
9:37 PM
@jalf: may be... this is also Johannes point
@jalf: i like more lisp or python approach (not scheme) ... where expressions are evaluated left-to-right
 
Scheme doesn't evaluate left to right?
 
@Pubby: no... arbitrary order for function arguments
 
Red herring: what about Haskell? ;-)
 
Why would it matter in Haskell? ;)
 
exactly!
 
9:39 PM
@Pubby: but at least an order... I don't think it's the same freedom C++ has
 
@Pubby (unsafePerformIO getInt) - (unsafePerformIO getInt)
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Quiet you!
 
@6502 That's exactly how it works in C# btw.
 
There is no such thing as unsafePerformIO, there is no such thing as unsafePerformIO, there is no such thing as unsafePerformIO...
 
@Pubby I feel dirty now.
 
9:41 PM
@FredOverflow praying? :P
 
@DeadMG I'm in my happy place!
 
Also, I should have made it a non-commutative operation.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes: arbitrary order but a full order?
 
Oh, hey, Haskell.
 
9:42 PM
@CatPlusPlus Not quite.
 
It's the Hellskell.
 
quite a lot of C++ programmers are surprised that std::cout << f() << g() may call g() before f()
 
@6502 nvm now i see your comment
 
Obviously, C++ needs monads.
 
@JohannesSchaublitb: just joking :-D
 
9:44 PM
@6502 i didn't know your comment also pointed out the same thing. i thought your comment just said "ah i know that the rules are confusing etc.." xD
@6502 i bet only few people will know why a = b = 1 is not undefined behavior in C++03
with both of a and b being normal ints
 
Because it's defined. Zing.
 
after all we write and read from "b" in between the same two sequence points!?
and the read is not to determine the new value of b to be stored!
 
a=b=1 is specially defined?
(I know it works, but it is a special case?)
 
hehehe... that's a good one :-D
 
@6502 added a link to the defect report about that "i = ++i + 1" is OK
 
9:48 PM
i always thought that it wasn't reading "b" but "1" btw
 
That's also the C# approach.
 
i.e. that the assignment result was not an lvalue
but that dates back to C... i never thought about it in C++ for non class types
 
b = 1 yield rhs and doesn't read b again.
 
@6502 yeah it is that way in C but in C++ it reads b
 
@CatPlusPlus You mean as a language extension? I don't think C++'s current type system is rich enough for a monad library solution. ICBWT.
 
9:51 PM
Dunno.
Oh hey, my new configuration is 2607PLN.
 
@FredOverflow Monads without do-syntax are too painful anyway.
 
Now there's a difference.
 
@FredOverflow afaik, there's nothing really special about monads, is there?. Haskell has some special syntactic sugar for them, but I see no reason why C++'s type system can't do monads
 
@jalf Because C++ has no type classes?
 
@FredOverflow You don't need them.
 
9:52 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes But C++ already has do and return keywords and even operator>>=, so you probably wouldn't break any old code ;)
 
The off-the-record concepts approach that has existed so far is enough.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Really? I'm pretty sure SPJ always emphasizes the importance of type classes when it comes to Monads.
 
But without the sugar of do-syntax, it only brings pain.
 
hehehe ... IMO most C++ programmers have problems understanding "void foo(const char *& x)"
 
9:53 PM
How would you describe Monads without type classes?
 
in particular
 
@FredOverflow That could mean they are sufficient, not that there are necessary.
 
@FredOverflow Describe the monad concept.
 
> 5.17 [expr.ass] paragraph 1 says,

> The result of the assignment operation is the value stored in the left operand after the assignment has taken place; the result is an lvalue.

> What is the normative effect of the words "after the assignment has taken place"? I think that phrase ought to mean that in addition to whatever constraints the rules about sequence points might impose on the implementation, assignment operators on built-in types have the additional constraint that they must store the left-hand side's new value before returning a reference to that object as their result.
 
How do you describe strict weak orderings without type classes?
How do you describe abelian groups without type classes?
 
9:54 PM
Concepts
 
@FredOverflow Right, but we do fine with informal concepts.
 
right
So we could probably just do it with good old templates and call them templonads!
3
 
Of course formalizing that would be sweeter, but it's not really necessary.
 
@6502 so the little text "after the assignment has taken place;" is actually a "sequenced-after"
which makes it so we don't read the "previous value" of the assignment, but the current value, so that we don't violate the sequence point rule anymore
 
9:56 PM
@JohannesSchaublitb: very interesting...
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Shouldn't the result of the assignment operation be the object in which the value is stored and not the value itself?
What is considered a fair Bittorrent upload/download ratio? Just wondering how long I should keep seeding the 4 GB debian-6.0.4 image :)
 
I usually seed to 2. I know many people think that's too much.
 
@FredOverflow yes. the spec abused "value" to mean "lvalue"
 
If I cannot even trust the spec, what can I trust?
 
Xeo
@FredOverflow @Johannes, it seems. :P
 
9:59 PM
i'm teh big liar
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I'm only at 10% now, and I have been seeding for several hours already :)
 

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