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9:00 PM
@DeadMG I disagree, and I can't think we can formalize a more atomic thought .
 
I don't think the Catholic church will budge in the next 100 years.
 
@LucDanton We have the same thing in Quebec.
 
@StackedCrooked Should I ever gain public office, they will be legally obliged to budge.
 
@jalf (I think I didn't make my point clear and I think I should have added: if not for the Internet, I would never have encountered those contrasting viewpoints in a long time. That being said I'll only be too happy to describe it to you.)
 
@DeadMG Sep of church and state?
 
9:00 PM
@DeadMG you think it's that easy huh?
 
@DeadMG Remind me to become a citizen before then, so I can vote against you.
 
@StackedCrooked That's the problem. They're not separated. I would separate them.
 
Are you through with the religion discussion yet?
 
right now, the Church (and, as far as I'm aware, to a somewhat lesser extent, all religous institutions) has a billion special laws and exceptions written into law for them.
I'd just remove them
 
@MichaelMyers seems not :P
 
9:01 PM
@MichaelMyers Nope. :)
 
@DeadMG Legally same-sex marriage is allowed. What's the problem?
 
@DeadMG My only curiosity is.... how are you selecting who's beliefs to respect, when so many are contradictory.
@StackedCrooked He can't force a church to perform a privately offered ceremony.
 
@StackedCrooked Not in the UK, and many other so-called civilized countries. And my problem is that some Christian prick is suggesting that we shouldn't allow it.
 
37 secs ago, by Xaade
@DeadMG My only curiosity is.... how are you selecting who's beliefs to respect, when so many are contradictory.
 
@Xaade Its not offered privately. It's offered to the public. If I wanted a Church marriage to a woman, I could get one, even though I'm a damn atheist.
 
9:02 PM
@jalf It's secularism that is more on the 'freedom from religion' side of things. So for instance State officials displaying religious symbols during their duty is frowned upon.
 
@Xaade I tend to focus on the ones that say "You should not treat other people equally if their sexuality or gender or (race, etc) is X, Y, or Z"
 
@DeadMG Even if your wife isn't a believer either?
 
@DeadMG Surely there are some obligations you would have to follow to be admitted.
 
actually, I'm pretty sure that there aren't.
 
@LucDanton Didn't they forbid the islamic veil in schools a while back?
 
9:03 PM
@DeadMG Would you force a Muslim to marry two Christians.
 
@LucDanton oohh right
yeah, I remember a few news items about that now
 
@Xaade That's probably not going to be an issue that comes up.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yes. Although whether that's regarding students or e.g. the teachers is two separate issues.
 
@DeadMG The reverse comes up all the time.
 
Tricky one. Can't really make everyone happy
 
9:04 PM
well, in my opinion, then yes, I would
if you offer a service to the public, then that means, to the public, i.e., anyone who wants it (and can pay for it)
 
@DeadMG A man and a infant.
@DeadMG WAIT.... hold up
 
pretty sure that's illegal and for good reason :P
 
@LucDanton In Quebec we have a crucifix in the Assemblée Nationale (the parliament). Every once in a while someone goes out to say that, to respect Quebec's laïcité, we should remove it. Then there's an uproar, and things stays the same. Rince and repeat every few months.
 
What reason, btw?
 
@DeadMG I tend to focus on the ones that say "You should not treat other people equally if their sexuality or gender or (race, amount of money in the bank ) is X, Y, or Z"
 
9:06 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Probably because the infant couldn't possibly give informed consent
 
@EtiennedeMartel I didn't learn about the Révolution Tranquille until not so long ago. It's hard to learn more about it though, or so I've found.
 
@DeadMG Oh, good point.
 
@Xaade Whether or not you can afford a ceremony or not is an objective, impersonal fact.
your religion or sexual orientation are personal
 
@DeadMG Are you sure, we could argue the person is disenfranchised because of his race.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I always love those events that cause an uproar so regularly that it's almost a tradition
 
9:07 PM
@Xaade What?
 
@DeadMG I'm of a particular race, so I can't afford your ceremony. You should offer it to me, because otherwise you're infringing my rights.
 
The word "disenfranchised" sounds like what happens when a McDonald's joint closes down.
 
By the way, that argument happens in America all the time.
 
@Xaade It's not the job of the Church to remove the admittedly existent, but relatively slight, correlation between race and financial wellbeing.
 
9:08 PM
@EtiennedeMartel That's the kind of things about Quebec I like to learn that makes the place look somewhat exotic. Which is kinda silly because of course there are the neighbouring francophone countries which also have their own versions of secularism, but somehow they're familiar.
 
that's the government's job
 
@StackedCrooked am I right that you are using mac osx?
 
@DeadMG But.... people have made the argument that banks should lend to people who can't afford it because they are of a particular race.
 
@bamboon Yep.
 
those people helped cause the depression we're in now
 
9:09 PM
our queen does a bit of the same. Every new year, she makes a speech on tv, and nearly every year, some of the more right-wing political groups makes a fuss about her being "too political", because there's a kind of unofficial agreement that she stays completely out of politics, and she just can't help saying dangerous things like "remember those who are less fortunate than us", or "be nice to each others" ;)
 
@StackedCrooked what do you use to code? xcode?
 
@bamboon QtCreator
 
never fails, the stupider tabloids will run a story on january first complaining that she's interfering in the political debate
 
@DeadMG Wait.... so you're going to throw those people down the gutter because they can't afford a loan?
We should force the banks to lend to them.....
 
lending them money is not going to solve their problems, it's only going to make things worse
for everyone
on a global scale
 
9:10 PM
@StackedCrooked ah ok, didn't you like xcode or what was the reason for qtcreator?
 
@jalf gasp! Who do she thinks she is, saying all those moderate statements?
 
I'm not saying people should be thrown down the gutter, but you can't just force banks to lend to them and hope that solves the problem, because it won't
 
So, when it's money, it's ok to discriminate. But not when it's a religious ceremony.
 
@Xaade Race has nothing to do with whether or not a person can afford a loan.
 
9:11 PM
@jalf Wait, "be nice to each other" is too political? WTF should she say? "Be excellent to each other, and... party on, dudes!"
2
 
@DeadMG It does if the banks raise their rate with the intent of assuring people from a certain race can't afford a loan.
 
well, I'm exaggerating a little bit
 
@bamboon At work I'm on Linux and there QtCreator is the best IDE (IMO). This caused me to become familiar with it. As a side effect I'm most productive with QtCreator on OS X as well.
 
@Xaade Well, there is no such rate raise, nor is there even such a rate.
the correlation between wealth and race is a, slim, and b, a population-wide statistic, not a fact about a person
there are horrifically rich black people
 
@DeadMG Yeah, but banks formed lines around certain communities and said, "Don't lend to anyone living in here."
 
9:12 PM
but yeah, she really comes across as very moderate and hard to object to. And there are always people raising a fuss about it, because she has no business interfering, or because she clearly doesn't know what she's talking about
@RMartinhoFernandes but yeah, I love it because it is so absurd ;)
 
@Xaade Well, that's probably illegal. They should lend to anyone who can afford the repayments.
but I won't force them to lend to anyone who can't, because that's just throwing the bank out with the bathwater
 
@DeadMG Then how do they protect themselves from a location where 95% of the loans in that district aren't remitted.
 
@DeadMG Race does not exist when it comes to human. Homo sapiens sapiens has no subspecies, or so I heard.
 
lend to the other 5%
 
I guess that's why I like the fact that we're a monarchy too. Got to love a monarch with no power. That's the best kind. I think a few contradictions here and there are healthy, in a way ;)
 
9:14 PM
@DeadMG How do you know that in advance?
 
@EtiennedeMartel There are ethnic groups.
 
@jalf It's like this in Belgium as well.
 
banks use the same algorithms to determine who can afford it across the entire population
 
@DeadMG But, we're talking about a culture that can marginally afford it, with an unpredictable rate of repayment.
 
@StackedCrooked sounds like a plan. to get gcc I anyway need xcode(at least it is the easiest way to get it)?
 
9:15 PM
and it doesn't always work, that's why banks hold capital, as risk
 
@RMartinhoFernandes But it's not the same as a "race". What I mean is that we really should stop using the word "race" for humans.
 
@Xaade Culture? Cultures do not take out loans. Individuals do.
 
@bamboon App store
 
@DeadMG And when you can reasonably determine risk by certain stats, you discriminate.
 
@EtiennedeMartel agreed. It's such a loaded term, and really implies much greater differences than actually exist.
 
9:16 PM
@Xaade People are not statistics. They are individuals. Each person has the right to be judged on their own merits.
 
@StackedCrooked you mean gcc or xcode? can't find gcc there
 
@DeadMG So car insurance companies shouldn't charge men more for insurance.
 
@bamboon You need to install Xcode for that.
 
but then again, biologically speaking, the term "race" doesn't really make much sense in the first place. It's not like such clear delineations really exist in nature.
 
@EtiennedeMartel > In biology, races are distinct genetically divergent populations within the same species with relatively small morphological and genetic differences.
 
9:16 PM
@DeadMG That's not how risk is determined.
 
@StackedCrooked yeah ok, I meant that
 
there is a smaller lightweight command line toolchain supported by apple, which cuts out all unnecessary xcode fluff, if you just want the very basics
I found it easier to just grab xcode though
 
You can also get GCC from MacPorts.
 
@DeadMG You just eliminated the methods for which banks and insurances companies reduce cost, making them impractical businesses.
 
But MacPorts requires GCC :D
 
9:17 PM
Yeah, you'll probably want to. The GCC version you get from Apple is pretty ancient
 
@jalf I'd almost agree with that if not for the fact that royal families and their members tend to have their properties intimately tied to the State in such a way that they end up or had ended up at some point in history as a burden to the taxpayer. Or maybe that's unique to e.g. the UK. And in any case I fear my opinion has been tainted by my républicain upbringing :p
 
@RMartinhoFernandes 4.2, actually.
 
@Xaade What, that part where men with no insurance claims get very cheap insurance?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Ow.
 
9:18 PM
MacPorts provides 4.6.2 and 4.7 beta.
 
@Xeo Not really, not all standard conversions are allowed either. Only a stricter cv-qualification. It will not, for example, allow conversion from int to double while deducing type arguments. Why it matters and why it is not allowed are related. Consider a template that is only enabled for floating point numbers (through) SFINAE, and consider that you pass an integer value. If the conversion was allowed, the compiler would have to check the type that you are passing (int)...
 
@DeadMG Men are charged more than women within 18-25
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Good enough to build MacPort's GCC.
 
there's a big difference between insurers and banks
 
... together with all types for which a conversion is allowed (even if user defined conversions are not allowed) and try to substitute the types in the template... pain.
 
9:19 PM
MacPorts also provides Clang. But you're better off building it yourself to get the latest updates.
 
@DeadMG No
 
uh, yes
 
sbi
> A “lightning flower” is a Lichtenberg Figure — or electric discharge pattern — that occurs on the skin of lightning strike victims, most likely as a result of small capillaries bursting from the intensity of the bolt’s current. — How About That of the Day
 
@DeadMG If an insurance company has the right to evaluate risk by certain properties of a person, then so does a bank.
 
insurers are betting that you won't, e.g., have an accident
 
9:20 PM
@StackedCrooked ah ok thanks for the tips, so I am gonna do xcode -> macport
 
Banks are betting that you will repay.
 
no
 
@DeadMG Really?
Maybe we should call up a local bank and ask.
 
look at the recession around you
that's what happens when banks bet
they should go into a loan and be relatively certain that you're going to repay.
 
@LucDanton yeah, of course it's not guaranteed to work. To the best of my knowledge, it works out ok in Denmark. Our royal family isn't particularly rich, and isn't really closely tied to the state. But it obviously also relies on actually having a monarch who "gets it", and doesn't behave too stupidly. I'm sure it'll fall apart sooner or later (all it takes is a stupid king/queen), but for now, I appreciate the absurdity of it, and that it saves us having a pompous president ;)
 
9:21 PM
@Xaade There's nothing wrong with that. You are just using the word 'betting' to make it sound like a bad thing.
 
@StackedCrooked I'm not making it sound like a bad thing. I'm comparing insurance company charging men more, to a bank charging people from a certain neighborhood more. Both are statistics.
 
Risk calculation != Betting
 
@sbi wow
 
@Xaade One is independent, and the other isn't.
 
@DeadMG I don't see how that's true.
 
9:22 PM
there's no reason to assume that you will default on your loan because the guy living next to you defaulted on his loan
there's no logical connection, no reason to say A, therefore B
 
@DeadMG If a neighborhood was full of foreclosures, would you buy a house in it.
 
sure
 
Going back to all the religion talk that's been taking place here today, I wonder what people thought of something like that, say, 1000 years ago. "marked by lightning", in a very real way
 
@DeadMG Good luck reselling.
@DeadMG Good luck getting a loan too.
 
@jalf Burn him!
 
9:24 PM
if I have a good, steady income, then I fully expect to get a loan
especially in these times, banks are desperate to find borrowers who can afford it
 
@DeadMG Expect all you want.
@DeadMG That's not the way the world works.
 
as for reselling, well, the housing market's in such a slump right now, you'll have fun re-selling wherever you are
 
@DeadMG you're assuming that bankers are competent and rational
 
@Xaade Except my father works in the financial industry with banks all the time, and I think I'm going to trust his judgement on this one.
 
9:25 PM
Is this right for swapping two integers:
a = a*b;
b = a/b;
a = a/b;
 
@jalf That's partly true. But I do expect that the recession has made them wake up a bit, considering the massive losses they've been making with their previous business practices.
 
@sbi So, how can I get one of those?
@KianMayne No.
 
@KianMayne No!
 
they've just lost heaps of money lending to people who shouldn't have been able to borrow. So now they're playing it careful, and refraining from lending to those who's basically risk-free. I guess if they lose heaps of money in that way as well, then on average they're running a good business ;)
 
@KianMayne This will fuck if you overflow somewhere.
 
9:25 PM
@DeadMG Wake up, sure, and jump straight into the opposite extreme
 
the smart way to swap two integers is std::swap
 
@jalf I can't reason with him.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Good point, but mathematically
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Can't you read? get struck by lightning.
 
and if you're looking for that really stupid trick with integers, it's ^=
 
9:26 PM
@KianMayne If you're gonna go that route, why not xor-swap? Is it floating-point?
 
@KianMayne Mathematically you can't handle 0 for instance.
 
@KianMayne What if b==0?
 
Good points
 
@sbi that looks painful on the guys back
 
@sbi What I'm asking is two things: 1) how can I convince lightning to strike me and 2) how can I make sure I live to tell the tale?
 
9:27 PM
My head farted for a bit.
 
@jalf Possibly true. But they still need borrowers, so as long as I'm only borrowing a reasonable amount, the it's not that hard.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Anger God. But not too much.
 
"mathematically", variables are generally immutable. So the notion of "swap" doesn't exist
 
@RMartinhoFernandes That's a pretty impressive design.
 
I don't know about in other countries, but in the UK, because we own so much of our bigger banks, it's monitored very carefully how much they lend, and the government spanks them if it's not enough
 
9:28 PM
> If complete and utter chaos was lightning, then he'd be the sort to stand on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet copper armour and shouting 'All gods are bastards'.
@EtiennedeMartel Like this?
 
@DeadMG right now they're generally hurting for cash, so what need is people who'll give them money (people with a nice fat savings account), and not so much borrowers
borrowers take their cash away, after all. Great long-term business, but if you're low on cash here and now, not so much
 
@DeadMG Banks invest their capital to make money, loans are just ONE way to invest.
 
they're not that short
 
@DeadMG AIG
 
@DeadMG nope, but combine this with their being super cautious and conservative right now
 
9:30 PM
@Xaade One specific failed bank does not a trend set.
 
My cat is an idiot.
 
@jalf Well, that's true, but it generally involves just lending less money to each borrower, not refusing a loan outright.
 
@DeadMG But one specific failed European country does.
 
it's very much both
 
in the UK, the % required for house deposits is way up, but you can still get a loan for a house, even on relatively low income
my flatmate from last year just did it
 
9:31 PM
@DeadMG Yeah, you just have to be conservative and save up more.
 
@StackedCrooked Do you need Qt to run QtCreator?
 
yeah, I got a loan for my apartment half a year ago too. It's not at all impossible
 
@Xaade Not really. It's pretty unusual to start giving false economic statistics, for example.
 
I'm just saying they're less likely to lend out money than they should be if they ran a rational competent business
just like a few years ago, they were much more likely to give people a loan than they should have been
 
@DeadMG That was a joke. [sarcasm]
 
9:32 PM
@EtiennedeMartel I think it can be obtained as a separate download.
 
that's perfectly true, and I'm not going to say that they aren't sometimes irrational or incompetent
but as long as you're clearly not borrowing too much, then it's still more than possible to get a loan
 
sbi
23 hours ago, by Tony The Lion
Terry Pratchet is always relevant
 
@sbi You can post this whenever you want, in any context.
 
sbi
@EtiennedeMartel What, is the @Cat yours now?
 
9:35 PM
@sbi No, not that cat.
@StackedCrooked Hmm, seems like even a "plain C++ project" needs qmake.
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked Well, in this case it was to what I suspect was a Pratchett quote.
 
@EtiennedeMartel You need to use "Import C++ project".
 
sbi
@EtiennedeMartel Ah, Ok. The evidence did fit, you know...
 
@sbi Har har har.
 
@EtiennedeMartel "New project" -> "Other project" -> "Import existing project". It will use 'make' to build your code, but you can override this.
 
user868935
9:36 PM
anyone worked with creating windows application?
 
@sbi Yes, it was. From The Colour of Magic.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Lemme guess... Leonardo?
 
@sbi Rincewind, talking about Twoflower.
 
I'm drinking beer :)
Woot :)
 
@sbi The turtle?
 
9:42 PM
 
Even if it was correct (which it is not), it would be slower than the plain old:
int tmp = a;
a = b;
b = tmp;
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas Long time no see :)
 
@StackedCrooked Been quite busy, I still am... and I have changed timezones. I now live in NY
 
@StackedCrooked Is there a way to convert an Xcode project to QtCreator?
 
9:44 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Not that I know of..
 
@StackedCrooked This is gonna be a pain.
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas Wow, that's quite a change...
@EtiennedeMartel If Xcode suits your needs then you could just keep using it.
 
@StackedCrooked That? That's nothing... since I used to come by I have started a blog and almost forget it completely, changed job, changed country (twice), got married and I am expecting a baby... no wonder I haven't had much time to drop by
 
congrats on the baby :) :)
and the marriage :)
 
and the blog :)
oh, wait..
 
9:47 PM
@DavidRodríguezdribeas I'm considering visiting NYC at the end of may
 
in PHP, 2 mins ago, by zod
how many of you think-deleting reputation points , down voting questions and answers . closing the questions . no respect to the users at all. SO for Sucks Off
 
we should have a beer
this is the perfect excuse for a "lol" at any given time :P
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I think these practices are an example of how idealism can do more harm than good.
 
@StackedCrooked What? Downvoting and closing questions is not disrepectful.
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas ok cool :)
 
9:49 PM
@TonyTheLion loL ... Get the capitalization right
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I mean the deleting of old classics.
 
@StackedCrooked That's not what the message is about though.
 
Ok, misinterpreted..
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Ah. Yeah, that, too, fits.
 
@Xaade NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
 
sbi
9:50 PM
@EtiennedeMartel da Quirm.
 
-4
Q: What are the zend components really used and usefull in the industry

zodI am using zend framework .But i am using only major components like Zend Controller , Zend View, Zend PDF , Zend Registry , Zend_Session etc Zend_Db and Zend_translate also useful . But Zend have so many other components . I think based on industry requirement other components also will be...

 
@TonyTheLion take note of the email, I am going to edit it out in a few seconds
 
9 hours ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
lol is never capitalised. Not even when it starts a sentence.
 
@TonyTheLion \o/ perspective added
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas I've taken note
@Xaade lol
 
sbi
9:51 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes LOL!
 
user868935
@StackedCrooked Im with ya on this. Some people just downvote just because they can
 
/o\
*Star Wars lol*
 
9 hours ago, by Tony The Lion
@CatPlusPlus when you write "lol", with a capital "L" you are breaking the symmetry of the letters, and it looks ugly. My eyes hurt everytime you write "Lol" instead of "lol" or "LOL".
this ^
 
@sbi Argh, you do this just to piss me off, don't you?
 
sbi
9:52 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes LOL!
 
(FTR, it does piss me off)
 
lOl
 
@Xaade what an eye sore
 
9:52 PM
_ |()| _
 
what..... is this markdown..... huh
@MichaelMyers That's good for a quick laugh.
 
9:53 PM
ioi
 
@TonyTheLion really small laugh.
 
lol
when you search for "lol" in this room's transcript, you will find 11303 instances of it.
we say that shit a lot
 
@TonyTheLion we say that shit a lol (FTFY)
 
. = small laugh, \o\ = fast laugh, ioi = short laugh, ___ O ___ = fell over laughing, /o\ = Star wars laugh, tot = fake laugh, YoY = broken laugh, .o. = hushed laugh.
 
9:57 PM
You done butchering lols?
 
@TonyTheLion BTW, thanks
 
Sweet, Wolfram answered my question on reddit
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas :)
 

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