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8:00 PM
So depending on whether they are unrolled, they'll perform differently.
 
@Mysticial Alright, we (maybe) addressed why VC++ is faster than GCC, why would each of the GCC tests be faster than the baseline test?
@Mysticial Can the compiler unroll anything here? I figured the function pointers through a non-inlinable function would disallow that.
 
@MooingDuck If the compiler can see through the indirection, then absolutely, yes, it can
 
New GCC 4.7 once this fallacy is fixed: gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=52465
I'm outta here.
Peace out.
 
@DeadMG it would have to generate a different non-inlinable function for different parameters it was given, I've never heard of a compiler doing such a thing. (not saying it's impossible)
 
@MooingDuck Not just the compiler, the processor itself can do that if it correctly predicts all those function calls.
 
8:02 PM
gee, you mean, like, templates or something?
 
@DeadMG there's no templates here
 
Basically, there's too much going on to be sure.
 
templates are the exact mechanism you just talked about
generating a new function for different parameters
 
If you're wondering why one compiler generates faster code than the other, show the disassembly? :)
 
@DeadMG fine fine, but there's no templates in my code
 
8:03 PM
right, I get that
but conceptually, if it could be replaced by a template, then the compiler could notice that and it could expand it like that
and I believe that I have seen, admittedly relatively trivial, examples where the compiler has done exactly that
 
loL
 
@jalf now that I look at it, it's obvious that Mystical figured it out exactly. VC++ baseline test is mov/ret. GCC's baseline test is push/movl/movl/movl/popl/ret
 
mov popl. ur indy vay.
 
> Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons. — Popular Mechanics, "predicting" the relentless march of technology, 1949
 
hahahaha
 
8:09 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes which is true.
 
computers in future may weigh no more than 1.5kg, buddy
 
@RMartinhoFernandes They were still expecting vacuum tubes.
 
how heavy do you think a calculator is?
not very heavy
 
8:10 PM
why not?
 
Just a few hundred grams.
 
"no more than" includes "less than" :P
 
the average human is no more than 10 feet (3 meters) tall.
 
Does GCC not have an option to change the default calling convention?
 
@DeadMG Actually, without organized religion, we wouldn't have the concept of society. So it's hard to determine what would have happened.
 
8:20 PM
@Xaade The very first known civilizations existed to organize trade, actually.
and the very second known civilizations existed to wage war
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Mmh, making invoke return empty_type instead of void apparently turns optional<int> into a non-copyable type. Or GCC is going mad again.
 
neither of those requires or involves religion
 
@DeadMG which wasn't babylon or greece.
 
@LucDanton Er, what?
 
@Xaade Those are both relatively recent.
 
8:21 PM
Sounds like the second option.
 
the first known civilizations hit 9000 BC, I think.
or maybe it was 9000 years ago
 
@DeadMG And those defined modern civilization. Unless you like the concept of a military driven government.
 
@Xaade And so what? Who's to say that they couldn't have defined it better without religion?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Indeedy. I get an ICE whether or not the concept checking is here, but apparently GCC decides to trip the checks when they're here.
 
@DeadMG Maybe so, but they wouldn't have been as powerful.
Which means, no technology.
 
8:23 PM
yeah, you're right
 
> Rail travel at high speeds is not possible because passengers, unable to breathe, would die of asphyxia. — Dionysius Lardner, Professor of Natural Philosophy and Astronomy at University College, London, and author of The Steam Engine Explained and Illustrated, 1830s
 
wasting their economic output on sacrifices, temples, and other similar things made them stronger
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Reading a Wikipedia page on predictions that famously turned out to be wrong or what?
 
@LucDanton Some random page I ended up on. Not sure where I came from, but it's likely it was from wikipedia. I doubt TVTropes would link me there.
 
@DeadMG You're focused too much on rational thought, which is impossible without modern civilization. You're stuck in the past, no one gets together on the massive scale like Babylon and Rome without religion. Therefore, no one's freed up to think so much.
 
8:25 PM
@Xaade They got together on a massive scale because it was the most efficient way to run their lives and conquer their neighbours. Religion is neither required nor beneficial for such things.
 
I'm not saying whether society is better without religion, I'm saying society wouldn't exist without it. So you're stuck with it.
@DeadMG But it's a motive.
No one would have stayed in Babylon if they outlawed religion.
 
the Roman Empire didn't exist because they got happy together worshipping the Roman gods
 
Everyone would have died.
 
it existed because they raised a huge-ass army with effective and innovative tactics and technology and kicked everyone else's asshole
 
@Mysticial Alright, when I switched VC++ back to stdcall, it now has similar results as G++. So, half solved. Now: why are all the tests faster than the baseline? ASM for VC++ and G++ baselines and Jalf's here. Jalf's is reliably 20s, where baseline is 21s.
 
8:27 PM
@DeadMG You miss the point. Rome wouldn't be as powerful without so many people. Rome wouldn't have so many people if they didn't absorb their religions.
 
I don't believe that at all
 
@DeadMG Knowing babylonian history.....
I can't see it happening without it.
 
when it comes right down to it, people will go where the money is, and a place that is rich from not wasting their lives on temples and statues and priests is going to attract a great population
 
@DeadMG They also treated those whose asses were kicked with a modicum of (relative) fairness. That's essential for maintaining a large empire.
 
Babylon was more successful simply because they absorbed religions.
 
@DeadMG That's not evident in history.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes That's true. But religion is also not a requirement for that, either.
 
Maybe today.
 
history? what? you're the one getting stuck in the past
 
@DeadMG Ok, be practical. The world exists with religion.
 
8:28 PM
@MooingDuck Why are you calling your baseline differently from the rest of the tests?
 
all I've said is that they could have been equally, or more, effective without religion
 
@Xaade Spiral dynamics, albeit a little controversial, offers an interesting perspective on this.
 
and all you've said is that they managed to overcome it a little
that's not even remotely even refuting my arguments
 
@DeadMG Maybe if everyone miraculously gave up their religions in a wash of tolerance that's void of the racism and other divisive factors we have today.... oops.... nope.
 
just because there did exist at one time a civilization that did not allow religion to become a serious problem for them does not mean that they would not have been more effective without it
 
8:29 PM
@DeadMG Religion helps a lot in controlling the masses.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Money's better.
 
@DeadMG Wrong.. sharing money costs money.
Sharing religion costs nothing.
 
@Xaade As if religions aren't a source of those divisive factors that we should get rid of.
 
Angry atheists in here, it seems.
 
@Mysticial ah. Good call. That might be it.
 
8:31 PM
@Xaade People will follow the money. They always have and they always will. They do, however, throw out religions on a regular basis.
 
@DeadMG Actually.... Romans were pretty ingenious in finding ways to create a tolerant environment. Which made them successful.
@DeadMG Wrong. Unless you're talking strictly Europe/America
 
@Xaade Emperor Nero would like to have a word with you.
 
@Xaade Yeah, because they were rich and they spent their money on good public health systems and gave their populations good health and lives
our modern society exists because the peasants of the past threw out their lords over money, not religion
 
@StackedCrooked It becomes different once you have power built up.
 
> He was known for having captured Christians burned in his garden at night for a source of light.
 
8:32 PM
@Xaade As if the rest of the world has never seen religious wars. India/Pakistan, for example?
 
@StackedCrooked Christianity wasn't a tolerant religion and harder to control
 
@StackedCrooked He was fond of fire.
@DeadMG Not everyone in the Roman empire was rich.
 
@Xaade Christianity started as an underground movement that was perceived as a threat to authorities. However, later it was declared the official religion of Rome and then it started being used as a tool for oppression.
 
@DeadMG You can't SHARE money. You can create an illusion of shared money, however, you can share religion without any cost.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Of course not. But imbalances persist through all human societies. Their public health systems were easily the best in the world at the time.
 
8:33 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Yep, that's the most logical explanation :p
 
@Xaade Sure you can share money. Look at, say, the Romans. They spent their money on public health systems that enabled their occupants to be economically active for longer by reducing the effects of various diseases. And sharing religion isn't profitable, sharing money via investments and lending can be.
 
oh hai
we talking about religion again?
 
@DeadMG Hmm.... well, you have misunderstanding of economics then.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I'm not angry at religion. I'm angry at it's followers.
 
"its" (that's for correcting me on "mom" earlier :P)
 
8:35 PM
@DeadMG No, you're angry at religion.
 
oh yeah, and that, too
 
No, you're angry your mom.
 
but mostly the followers
 
@DeadMG is angry at most things/people he comes across :P
 
@MooingDuck oh, that's what you're playing with. Interesting :O
 
8:36 PM
I find that to be the case.
 
like look at this fuckface
 
That some people prefer to blame everything else, rather than focus on improving themselves.
 
what's the baseline implementation? Just a bunch of mov's?
 
8:37 PM
It would create a society which deliberately chooses to deprive a child of either a mother or a father.
Sounds factual.
 
not really
it's him going "WAAAAH WAAAAH SAME SEX MARRIAGE HURTS MY BRAIN!"
it's pathetic
 
Honestly, if you want to get down to economics. How is allowing that marriage economically beneficial.
 
Wait, is that about marriage or adoption?
 
other people's personal relationships, and how they choose to define them, have nothing to do with him
 
@DeadMG Isn't that the sort of thing the CoE likes to jump on and rub off in their faces "hey, that's all right by ours! come visit your local church! we'll be waiting"? Like ordination of women? (Completely OT as an aside of course.)
 
8:38 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes I actually think it's already legal for gay couples to adopt.
 
@Xaade Marriage doesn't bring children automatically. And AFAIK, homossexuals can't reproduce.
 
I mean, if we're going all Roman, good economical system. I don't think we can justify same-sex marriage.
 
of course we can
if two people wish to define their relationship as marriage, then crack out your legal registry
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Ok, so that reduces the population.
 
it's none of anyone else's business what genders they happen to be
 
8:39 PM
@DeadMG That's not economical, that's another tax, and taxes hurt the economy.
 
@Xaade For a start, in the overpopulated age of today, that's probably a good thing
 
@Xaade No, it doesn't. Those homossexuals wouldn't have kids anyway.
 
same sex marriages are legal in most european countries now afaik
 
and secondly, they wouldn't reproduce anyway
 
@RMartinhoFernandes unless they were forced to.
 
8:39 PM
Why would that be?
 
@Xaade Not really. Happier people are more economically productive, and the cost of a ceremony is pretty trivial, unless you choose to go above the legal minimum.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Not necessarily true.
 
And if you're worried about that anyway, start by forbidding medical sterilisation procedures.
 
the marriage, or not, of two completely different people has nothing to do with anyone else
 
@DeadMG Maybe.... but there are bigger pieces at play than happiness.
 
8:40 PM
@TonyTheLion 'Marriage' is pushing it, I think that's 4-5 countries tops. Lots more have legislated for same-sex union in one form or another however.
 
and the Church, of any faith, should keep their fucking holes shut about it
@Xaade Like what?
 
@DeadMG Not true.
 
someone else's marriage doesn't affect you
it's not gonna come and give your children a disease, or cost you money
 
@DeadMG what Louis CK said too
 
it will never affect your life
 
8:41 PM
@DeadMG Well, no one wants to be politically incorrect by taking the time to evaluate the effects of same-sex marriage on the economy.
 
never, ever
@Xaade People can always choose to not get married if they think it doesn't justify the cost.
 
@DeadMG unless their child became friend with your child sometime in the future, then it might affect you :P
I'm just being very hypothetical here
lol
 
Depends.
Hypersexualized culture increases health care costs.
You don't see someone coming around and forbidding sex.
 
allowing homosexual marriage has nothing to do with hypersexualization
 
@TonyTheLion Affect you how? You don't want your children to have friends? (And again, homossexuals don't reproduce)
 
8:43 PM
hypersexuality and homosexuality aren't related whatsoever
 
@TonyTheLion Dark blue is marriage, light blue is union or similar. As you can see that's not so many for marriage (although IIRC Denmark has legislated for it very recently).
 
@RMartinhoFernandes what if a gay couple adopt a child?
@LucDanton yes I got the point. I don't really care tbh
 
@TonyTheLion That's not marriage.
 
nice to see the Canadians getting it right
 
Sort of. Civil gay marriage has been legal for ages. But very recently it was required for the church to marry homosexuals as well
 
8:44 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes wtf??? you lost me!!!
 
@jalf That seems wrong.
You can't require anyone to perform a religious ceremony.
I mean.... religion is evil right?
 
@jalf Wait, what? That's crazy stupid.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes which part of it?
 
well, IMO, if they want to marry heterosexuals, then they should marry homosexuals, too
 
@jalf The "force the church to marry them".
 
8:45 PM
Seems they want more than marriage. They want to force other people with other beliefs to bow down to their culture.
 
ah
 
@Xaade No, that's exactly the opposite.
if a heterosexual couple can get married by the Church, why shouldn't a homosexual couple?
that's the Church's beliefs being forced on the homosexual couple
 
@DeadMG Because the church isn't a public institution.
 
@jalf That's because the Church is recognised by the State, isn't it?
 
@DeadMG Ceremony by a private institution isn't required for legal marriage is it?
 
8:46 PM
no, but private institutions don't get to go lolsies here either
 
actually I think that's inaccurate. IIRC, it is that there used to be a law forbidding the church from marrying homosexuals (although as I said, civil marriage was legal), and they removed that limitation, so it's now up to the church what they want to do
But not 100% sure, tbh. I didn't follow it too closelyu
 
@jalf That sounds more fair.
 
@jalf Ok. That sounds saner.
 
any private business which offers a service should not be allowed to discriminate just because the people looking for the service are homosexual
 
IMHO religion isn't evil by itself or even a bad thing, but it can be put to uses which are definitely not in the best interests of it's followers/believers. Religion can be and has been misused as a way to control people and to stir war and conflict between groups of people
 
8:47 PM
and I don't see why a Church should be any different
 
but as @LucDanton says, yes, we're not an entirely secular country. The church has a special status, and so it kind of does make sense to legislate what they have to do/can't do
 
@DeadMG It's not a business, it's an evil religion. Dead, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
 
@DeadMG They're allowed to discriminate based on faith, no? If you're homosexual, you can't be of Catholic faith. Or something like that. I'm not an expert.
 
@Xaade I never said they were evil, only that they shouldn't exist. The two are not the same.
@RMartinhoFernandes Well, legally, they can and they do
 
but I agree with you, as long as civil marriage is allowed, and confers the same rights as christian marriage, other institutions such as the church should be able to do whatever they please
 
8:48 PM
but in my opinion, they should not be allowed to do so
 
@DeadMG As they should.
 
they should offer equal rights, just like everyone else
and they should be forced to offer equal employment, just like everyone else
 
@DeadMG Religious ceremony / business relationship isn't a right.
 
I still think that no matter what your beliefs are, you should still respect anothers beliefs, whether you agree with those beliefs or not.
 
Wait, you don't want the Church to force its beliefs down your throat, but you want to force yours down its throat?
 
8:49 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Exactly. @DeadMG has lost it.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Nothing to do with mine.
my belief is that the Church should be destroyed and it's possessions sold for public funds
 
but that's just me
 
@Xaade No, he's as extreme as ever.
 
8:49 PM
if you are a woman, then you have equal rights to men
 
Norway appears to also have a State Church and has legislated in favour of same-sex marriage. That has to be interesting.
 
@DeadMG my belief is that the Government should be destroyed and sold to the highest bidder.
 
@Dead is still a smooth operator.
 
what about the beliefs of all of those women who want to be bishops?
 
he's @DeadMG, can you expect anything else?
 
8:50 PM
what about their faith?
the men in the Church are roflstomping all over that
 
@TonyTheLion why? How about Hitler's beliefs that jews are inferior and should be gassed? Plenty of people have the nastiest, most demeaning beliefs, and I don't feel obligated to respect them
 
and what about the faith of homosexuals who want to have a Christian marriage?
Church says no because their faith says no?
how is that not roflstomping all over the beliefs of others?
 
Or rather, I respect their right to have that belief, but I also strongly believe that I have the right to confront them with my beliefs, and try to change their minds
 
@DeadMG You just eliminated equal rights by forcing the Church to perform a religious ceremony for people it doesn't want to. What's next, forcing a person to invite people they don't like over for tea and biscuits.
 
I think the whole "live and let live" thing is lost here.
 
8:51 PM
@DeadMG Because they can form their own church.
 
Isn't that a James Bond movie?
 
I don't believe in the right to hold your opinion or belief sacred, outside the realm of debate or discussion
 
@Xaade No, I enforced equal rights and I took away the Church's right to roflstomp on other people.
 
@jalf you're taking a very extreme example here, and I"m talking about religious beliefs, perhaps I wasn't being specific enough. Hitler's "beliefs" you mention aren't considered religious afaik
 
@RMartinhoFernandes What is?
 
8:51 PM
Oh, it's Live and Let Die.
 
@TonyTheLion It doesn't matter what nature beliefs take.
 
@TonyTheLion yep, very extreme. But I believe the same principle applies
 
@DeadMG Where's equal rights for the church to practice their beliefs unhindered by people barging in and requiring them to act differently.
 
what if your religion says that certain people are inferior? Does that make it better?
 
Islam and women.
 
8:52 PM
Oh, hey, we reached the Godwin Point. Congratulations everyone, this discussion has now officially gone to shit.
 
@Xaade If you offer religious services for other people, then that's your problem.
 
@jalf I was trying to put out a sensible idea, but it seems you can't do that on the internet because someone is always going to make mock of it somehow :(
 
@DeadMG It's not a DAMN business.
 
@Xaade Of course it is. They sell faith. Nothing more
 
@DeadMG The Church is not there to make money.
 
8:53 PM
cough
 
Churches are not special. They are not awesome. They are, at best, charities.
 
@DeadMG the state doesn't consider it a business
 
@DeadMG If I offer tea and cookies to particular people of my own discretion, will you force me to offer it to people I don't like. A church is a private affair, like a person's home.
 
they are no different to any other private institution with private goals
 
@TonyTheLion You can, and you should. But you should also expect others to confront you with different ideas. :)
I think both are essential
 
8:54 PM
@Xaade You don't offer tea and cookies to anyone who wants them except homosexual people.
 
@jalf right, sorry, felt like you were just out to make me wrong
 
Keeping your beliefs or opinions to yourself is just as harmful as allowing others to do it. Opinions are there to be shared and tested
 
and, yes, if you did make such an offer, then in the UK, you could be sued for discrimination.
 
Those Brits are crazy.
 
@DeadMG Hell with that place then.
 
8:54 PM
@TonyTheLion not at all. I meant what I said, but I didn't say it just to disagree with you. :)
 
@jalf right ok
 
@DeadMG What if those cookies have homosexual poison?
 
@Xaade Eh. I think it's a good thing. If you want to deal with other people, you have to respect how they believe.
 
@DeadMG No wonder Brits aren't friendly.... afraid of being sued for forgetting someone.
 
You'd be actually saving their lives.
 
8:54 PM
Good point.
 
@Xaade Forgetting != making a big-ass sign saying "NO HOMOS"
 
Anyone know Latin?
 
@jalf well yes you have a valid point on Hitlers "beliefs", and no I wouldn't respect those either. But you got the idea I was putting out
 
@DeadMG Ok, you just activated my trap card. "You have to respect how they believe" != "Forcing a church to perform a ceremony not required for legal marriage status".
 
8:55 PM
@jalf Which reminds me that I've been surprised by the reaction of people to laïcité, i.e. the French brand of secularism. Apparently to some secular people it's "too much", but I haven't exactly pinned down too much of what exactly.
 
Wait, we're playing a card game and no one told me?
 
 
Respect cannot be enforced.
 
@Maxpm The only thing I know is "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur."
 
8:56 PM
@Xaade If you offer such a ceremony to anyone who wants it, then you'd best be prepared to deal with homosexual people equally.
 
@DeadMG Good luck getting Muslims to do it.
 
but more accurately, the guy I linked wasn't even talking about that. He was talking about purely civil legal marriage.
@Xaade They follow the same laws as everyone else.
 
@DeadMG You know what.... you're total bullshit.
 
@Xaade What, I didn't read the news article properly?
 
You are, not the article :D
 
8:57 PM
@DeadMG Stop putting his words in my mouth.
 
Just kidding :)
 
@DeadMG What about restrooms? Aren't those discriminatory? Why can't I use the women's restroom?
 
@Xaade Well, the message you replied to was one that I said regarding the article.
 
@TonyTheLion Sure. My point (and my belief/opinion) is just that beliefs are never sacred or taboo. If you want to hold a belief, you should be willing/prepared to allow others to test it. If, after being confronted with my arguments, you haven't changed your mind, that's perfectly fine, and I respect your right to stick with your belief. As long as you heard my arguments against, and considered them fairly and honestly
 
@RMartinhoFernandes You can, if you really want to. I think.
 
8:58 PM
@DeadMG For that I apologize.
 
and of course, "you" here means the person holding the belief, and not you specifically ;)
 
@Xaade OK. Accepted. Let's move on from that.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes It's funny, because today this was mentioned in Japanese class. That men and women can't use the same public toilets.
 
But anyway, I think the sum of my entire problem with you is.
3 mins ago, by Xaade
@DeadMG Ok, you just activated my trap card. "You have to respect how they believe" != "Forcing a church to perform a ceremony not required for legal marriage status".
 
@LucDanton I'm not familiar with it. What is it?
 
8:59 PM
@jalf surely I considered it, and you made a valid point, which I can see.
 
@DeadMG Aren't there some kind of public decency laws or whatnot?
 
@DeadMG You're not respecting the church's beliefs. You're selecting who you want to respect.
 
if you offer that ceremony to the public, then you should be prepared to deal with the public, and deal with the fact that some of the public are homosexual.
@Xaade No, I'm disrespecting the beliefs that say "You should roflstomp on other people".
 

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