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15:00
I think the best language to interact with *GL is JS right now
@Borgleader I think they're all female. Not the same thing.
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz JS over C++ or JS over Rust?
Ven
Ven
@Morwenn do you have the link to C++ papers by month/meetings?
wanna know if there are cool ones to read
You can also Google "C++ papers" and it's the first link.
15:03
@caps Can a race be all female if there are no male? Like... the distinction makes no sense if the counterpart doesnt exist.
user1804599
I wanna write this in SQL:
user1804599
rows = /* SQL query */;
current = 0;
result = infinity;
foreach row in rows {
  current += row.delta
  result = min(result, current)
}
return result
user1804599
No idea how.
@Borgleader I think they're described as a matriarchal culture.
@Borgleader Have you heard of parthenogenesis?
15:03
There's nothing you can't do if you want it bad enough, except the things you can't do because you're dumb.
@caps A mono-gender race, the asari are distinctly feminine in appearance and possess maternal instincts - Mass Effect Wiki
@Morwenn no! not that!
@Borgleader That's good enough for me. shrugs
Also, some kinds of phasmidas don't have males anymore.
user406009
@ElimGarak "I want to go faster than light"
user406009
15:06
@MadaraUchiha I don't think that will do what Elyse wants.
user406009
It seems like Elyse basically wants to calculate the minimum item in the cumulative sum.
@Lalaland Oh, missed the +=
@Lalaland That's not a problem, mathematically, since 1994. It is, however, a problem in the local sense, wrt to local spacetime.
@Lalaland I have too little experience in Rust to form an opinion about that.
BTW just saying... if you could star Hate on github it would really boost my self esteem and stuff
no pressure :D
Ven
Ven
The C++ variant proposal seriously has empty state / UB? ugh...
15:11
The current one has throwing empty state.
user406009
@Ven "purrformance"
Ven
Ven
Damn that's retarded. Sacrificing everything to such idols.
"If assignment throws, simply default-init another variant type" wut
ah, no, amazing
it can't be worse than comparing regexes on the string they've been created from (yes I'd rather have no ==)
user406009
@ScarletAmaranth Isn't regex equality NP complete?
Say what you mean. Geometric mean.
15:17
@Lalaland it's NP hard, you can't afford to recompute when some joker decides to call == willynilly
user406009
An NP hard equality test is almost worthless.
ye that's why I'd rather have none
wtf is this comparing the string the language had been created from
that's like 1/10 would compare false to 2/20
Exactly the same as comparing unnormalised strings
Simple identity comparisons are in general more useful than throwing your hands up in the air
Even if they're not theoretically ~~~perfect~~
well, but strings in general are supposed to represent just that
a string of stuff
on the other hand if you had like... textstring, then normalizing would make sense
user406009
@ScarletAmaranth No.
15:21
@Lalaland Yes.
Comparing unnormalised strings is just one step removed from comparing byte-for-byte equivalence
(Well in C++ it's the same thing but)
but comparing a string of stuff without normalization is the general behaviour you want
No it's not
why not? std::string is not only for representational purposes
15:22
In the same class of situations you want that, you can make use of comparing regexes by source
This talk is pretty good, Chandler OP
the equality test should be normalized to at least NFC or NFD
@Borgleader ye but also pretty dull...
@ScarletAmaranth Wot
user406009
Clearly our string equality test should also normalize human language and dialect while it is at it.
15:23
5 mins ago, by ScarletAmaranth
that's like 1/10 would compare false to 2/20
Like seriously you said this 5 minutes ago and it's literally the same thing
user406009
I refuse to accept anything that's not pure equivalence of meaning.
@CatPlusPlus std::string is just a sequence of characters, that's it
Comparing unnormalized instances
And rationals are just two numbers
15:24
but it depends on how you lookat it
@ScarletAmaranth Which is why it's so spectacularly useless
no
rational is a representation of what we see under a rational number
Xeo
Xeo
@Borgleader You can hear me answer the bug question in the beginning :D
string is just a sequence of characters
Ven
Ven
15:25
Today in the news: c++ is insane
"rational" is certainly not just two numbers
And regex is just a sequence of characters that's executable
I really don't know what you're talking about and how do you think it makes sense
1/10 and 2/20 are two different things until you normalise them, same with strings, same with regexes
maybe I word improperly, but regex is not just a sequence of characters; we understand regex represents a language
std::string is on the other hand a sequence of characters
:@
std::pair<int, int> is just a pair of integers
std::rational is not
15:27
your mother is just a pair of tons
std::rational you want to normalize, std::pair you don't
just because the representation we happen to use is the same doesn't imply the semantics are
also /cc @AndyProwl for mother's joke
user406009
@ScarletAmaranth Anyways, C++ regexs aren't actually regular languages.
user406009
They are context free grammars IIRC.
user406009
15:28
You can't do CFG equality.
@ScarletAmaranth Which cannot be exactly compared without normalising
@Lalaland then don't put the operator== in at all :)
But I'm again repeating myself so whatever
Equality vs equivalence etc
user1804599
cool, Stackage uses my Haskell package
my point was that std::string is supposed to hold no meaning and that's why I think it's ok to not normalize; on the other hand a hypothetical std::text for example should be first normalized
15:32
Meaning is irrelevant
user406009
@ScarletAmaranth There is always an additional level of normalization possible.
There's no inherent meaning in 'Ä…' == 'Ä…' and yet you need to normalise because there's multiple representations of that
there's only multiple representations of that when you render it
15:33
Combining marks are part of the string
one is a dumb sequence of bytes, the second is a string
@milleniumbug and the first one you don't normalize, the latter one you do :P
It can be either U+0105 or U+0061 followed by U+0321 (I think, anyway some combining mark)
arrr I give up! :)
15:36
@Xeo You were there? Oh shit :O
Which represent the same thing, regardless of rendering
U+0105 should compare equal to U+0061 in a datatype std::text and should compare not equal in std::string
No, that's dumb and completely something else
no, std::string simply shouldn't exist.
I don't care about what they represent in a datatype that doesn't care what its contents represent
@Puppy lol ^^
15:37
If it represents Unicode then you do care
Ell
Ell
I'm bad at git :V
if you just want a block of bytes, use std::vector<char>.
This string/text dichotomy is dumb and completely irrelevant
but only in a datatype that states it represents Unicode
15:37
Whether it's encoded or not doesn't matter
@Ell You're not alone.
@Ell I'm growing moderately successful at git.
As soon as it becomes "a sequence of characters" in any way shape or form you need to care about normalisation
still getting the habit of rewriting history, though.
if I have a blob of data, I don't want to compare those two with regards to random unicode normalization
15:38
Dajum. I could have a full time career in job interviewing. Tomorrow decision-day.
@CatPlusPlus ok maybe our understandings of "sequence of characters" differ; to me it implies it's just a blob of char in memory with no other meaning
I interview the heck out of these companies and they still all want to have me. Am I doing it wrong?
A blob of char is not a sequence of characters
@sehe Stop being so good :p
It's neither string nor text
It's just a vector of random bytes
15:39
@sehe Its because you're really good at what you do. :)
@Morwenn At job interviewing, perhaps.
EXAM IN 2 HOURS
I AM READY
Flex
@sehe You could get paid for interviewing companies.
And again, comparing those for identity is exactly the same as comparing regices for identity based on their source text
15:40
@ThePhD Do you only study these days?
@Morwenn I'm sure I don't want that though
17 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
In the same class of situations you want that, you can make use of comparing regexes by source
qed
@Ell Yeah, so you merged some shit
user406009
@Morwenn I think his finals are almost over.
@Morwenn One day soon, I'll do something useful.
15:40
@ThePhD Go get 'em! <3
@ThePhD Not studying anymore doesn't mean that you're doing something useful :D
@ScarletAmaranth What's a character blob for?
Just look at me x)
As opposed to a byte blob (for which the aforementioned vector<char> fits fine)
@sehe does this mean you might have to move?
15:42
I don't know; for whatever you want :)
@BartekBanachewicz Nope. Everything within 25 km radius
@ScarletAmaranth Is that agreement that it is useless?
It's been taking long because all interviews go in-depth and I got positive responses on all requests for hand-on guided (code) tours /cc Thx @JohanLarsson
Ell
Ell
I think I want foldMap
15:44
@Ell do you mean fold f . map m? A.K.A MapReduce
@Morwenn I'd like to think if I'm not studying for some school function, I'm going to be doing something mildly more fun, interesting, and more usefully related to programming \o/
user406009
@ThePhD But instead, you are just learning physics which you will immediately forget after the exam :P
@R.MartinhoFernandes no it's not :P
Ell
Ell
I'm not sure. Lemme think for a bit
@Lalaland I'll actually probably remember a bunch of it, but not to this degree I'm sure.
15:45
@BartekBanachewicz Last interview crammed in that tour (incl. team lunch) at the last minute. Effectively skipping their 3rd round, so I could have a "fair" chance to actually consider them along with my pending offers
@ScarletAmaranth Then what is it useful for?
I'm still thinking to go with my gut, even though it's slightly self-destructive masochist.
@R.MartinhoFernandes as a seed for a pseudorandom generator
@ScarletAmaranth That's bytes.
@sehe does your gut tell you that you want the highest "celery" :P?
15:47
That gut just wants to reward myself for holding out long enough to find an actual c++ heavy gig.
@R.MartinhoFernandes what if I want to have them implicitly be chars for... <a good reason> :P
char is byte
Nothing more
@ScarletAmaranth That's bytes, hence vector<char>.
why would you normalize a sequence of those then (on comparison) :-\
@ScarletAmaranth Highest/safest celery is likely at the more enterprisey company (they wouldn't view themselves as that). Where I'd be hired as a developing software architect (if that's even a thing)
15:49
@R.MartinhoFernandes ok so what you're trying to say is that std::string is supposed to represent something with meaning beyond a sequence of chars?
@ScarletAmaranth No, I'm saying it's arguably useless, as Puppy said.
But I'd primarily be dealing with Delphi + SVN if that creates enough of a picture
Hell. comparing strings by identity is even less useful than comparing regexes by source equality
@sehe soo... that's a no :)? (oh ok now with the more recent addendum, that's a no)
vector<char> can handle bytes, and string can't handle characters.
15:50
So, dear lazyweb, what do you say: architect in a enterprisey software development department for pattern-recognition/OCR mail handling/sorting machine lines, vs. lead C++ developer in a startup for digital forensics?
The only niche left there for string is interop with null-terminated strings.
@ScarletAmaranth Yeah. They're a really nice company though, and it's closest to home (also consideration).
But yeah. That gut.
@R.MartinhoFernandes ok I still can't see how that undermines my point that normalizing it on comparison is silly as it's not supposed to represent text
@sehe Could be worse, like C++
15:50
^
I think I'd rather write Delphi than C++
user406009
@sehe I would pick the one with the better work environment + pay.
Did I mention the "slightly masochist" factor before :)
Also nobody said it should normalise on comparison
Ell
Ell
@ScarletAmaranth badum tss
@ScarletAmaranth I believe the idea was to store normalized data instead, thus relying on trivial sequence comparisons for comparison.
15:52
@Lalaland It's hard to compare an effective startup (FoxIT spinoff) to a proven enterprise even if salaries are ~equal
@sehe I guess it depends on whether you want a job where you can wank to appreciate the code you write, or appreciate the final product.
@R.MartinhoFernandes ok that's a different approach, but I don't think that's what Cat worded (perhaps it's what he meant but he certainly didn't say that explicitly)
@BartekBanachewicz Why not both :)
user406009
@sehe How risky is the startup?
I dunno. 17?
user406009
15:53
Well, are they profitable yet?
led by 17 chimpanzees?
Nope
@BartekBanachewicz I don't know the SI unit for startup riskiness
Can I use isalpha with non-ASCII characters (codes 128...255)?
@Lalaland They're aiming for that this year. It's hard to tell the odds of it.
15:54
@Abyx isalpha only returns true for a-zA-Z
@BartekBanachewicz INSTALLING!
@ScarletAmaranth why i have no docs
halp
Do I need to haddock manually?
Ell
Ell
@sehe startup sounds cooler
yes, by running haddock @BartekBanachewicz (shock!)
@BartekBanachewicz well cppreference doesn't agree
15:55
(Though if you're picky and want to be aware of some obscure shit, you may want to store unnormalized data, or use a non-standard normal form, but that's besides the point)
@BartekBanachewicz No, it's locale-aware
@R.MartinhoFernandes my whole point was that you would simply not normalize a pair of ints but would normalize "that pair" in a type rational
user406009
@sehe Well, you constantly hear about non-profitable startups failing.
@ScarletAmaranth I ran haddock but still the same
@Ell I'm gravitating to it (from the start actually). I feel all the uncertainty is made up for by open atmosphere and room for suggestions
user406009
I mean, the argument is that you can always just get another job.
15:55
@R.MartinhoFernandes so it's ok, and there is no UB ?
Don't work at a startup if you have kids
@BartekBanachewicz so you have the HTML generated off of hadoc and you just want to hyperlink it to the docs on hackage?
@Abyx It's fine. Just make sure implicit conversions don't make you negative values.
user406009
But that's a risk.
@ScarletAmaranth Kinda-sorta? I just did cabal haddock then cabal sdist
15:56
Happens easily if you do use it as argument in std::transform from char ranges.
But the dist targz doesn't contain the docs
@BartekBanachewicz oh, then I don't know :-\
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh, that's is, conversions. thank you.
13
Q: Why is the Haddock documentation not showing up on Hackage?

Trystan SpanglerI've got a package on Hackage that has haddock generated documentation but it isn't showing up on the Hackage page. I'm able to upload everything successfully but the documentation doesn't show up. I generate the documentation with cabal haddock or with Package > Build Documentation in the Leksa...

@Abyx No UB if you pass those values you said. UB if you pass negative ones and expect them to wrap-around (as would an unsigned conversion normally)
15:58
@BartekBanachewicz PATIENCE THEN; (you can meanwhile give me a link to it so I can use it :D)
@ScarletAmaranth let me upload 0.1.4.0 release first
@Lalaland See:
People say you should work at startups because that's where the interesting work (and money) is. That's backwards! http://danluu.com/startup-tradeoffs/
you most probably don't need 0.1.4.1 anyway
or wait
user406009
@sehe Yeah. There is that as well.
I need to make changes to the cabal file
shit
I can't do that for previous releases
ah fuck that I can just make a new version
user406009
15:59
@sehe The startup vs bigcorp tradeoff is even worse in the US due to our issues with health care.
@BartekBanachewicz Well. Don't work at startups if you cannot take the termination risk

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