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17:00
@Elyse funny, I never looked at it that way
then you can explore all those states and select an input which must be different for each state
user1804599
@Jefery For example, a program which always terminates but cannot be expressed in LOOP is the Ackermann function.
@orlp turing complete programs also seem to have a discrete number of possible states
@Jefery the tape is part of the state and infinite
I see
user1804599
17:01
It's impossible to design a language which rejects all nonterminating programs but accepts all terminating ones, because that would require a solution to the halting problem.
But memory in practice is not infinite
@Jefery No, the nonterminating ones might have and endless number of states. "Enumerate all integer numbers" would be one such program.
So are the implementations of said languages not actually turing complete?
user1804599
Memory is often considered infinite because infinite systems are easier to reason about.
17:01
@Jefery nope
user1804599
@Jefery There are no proper hardware Turing machines.
user406009
@Jefery Nothing is "actually turing complete"
unconditionally terminating programs are strictly weaker than turing complete programs
Ell
Ell
How about that lambda calculus tho?
@Ell not unconditionally terminating
user406009
17:02
You eventually run out of memory, power, time, etc, etc.
user1804599
@Ell Lambda calculus is Turing-complete, but a physical system that manipulates lambda terms is (strictly) not.
@Lalaland biggest problem in computing science now IMO
Ell
Ell
Church Turing equivalence innit
the turing machines get bored and start masturbating
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Ell
Ell
17:02
Or something
@Elyse What about a language which rejects all nonterminating non-turing complete programs and accepts all terminating non-turing complete programs?
@fredoverflow LOL
user1804599
Remove the 30k restriction from Brainfuck for an easy-to-implement language that is Turing-complete. If you can implement an interpreter for it in language X, X is also Turing-complete.
@Jefery Halting problem?
@R.MartinhoFernandes send dick pics to a random person on your contact list
for an adrenaline rush
and stay awake
user406009
17:03
@R.MartinhoFernandes The Halting problem only applies to turing complete languages.
Anyone with nasm or any assembly knowledge tell me why this statement is invalid: mov sztest, [al]
where sztest is db 0
Ell
Ell
@Lalaland but does the checking programme need to be Turing complete
see the x86 mov instruction specification
neeeeext
user1804599
@Jefery No idea.
user406009
@Ell Depends on the language.
user1804599
17:04
What does it do for Turing complete programs?
is it because al is a 16 bit register?
user406009
Some languages can be parsed with regex for instance.
because of everything
@Jefery lol
17:05
@fredoverflow He sighs when mentioning C++...
It's remarkable how many people disliked this language.
user1804599
@Jefery Some programs are not Turing-complete but do require Turing-completeness of the interpreter they run on. So the Halting problem applies to the language they are written in.
I sexually identify as a Bartek
user406009
@StackedCrooked That's because C++ has a lot of flaws.
@Elyse But in practice no program is turing complete, no?
I think it's because he believes in simple and elegant solutions. C++ is the opposite but still successful and useful.
17:06
It approssimates turing completeness
But it's not because memory is limited.
@StackedCrooked and will never stop being one
this is a really cool map of the world based on OSM trace density
I dunno about "successful and useful"
@thecoshman OSM?
I mean ok it's the best what we have in some areas
user1804599
17:07
@Jefery I am not a physicist, but you are correct if there is no way to acquire infinite reliable memory in the universe.
but then again we almost have better alternatives rolled out
@thecoshman It correlates somewhat with population. Impressive
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz Like what? Rust?
Can you get the same normalized for population?
@Lalaland Rust, Terra, Haskell
17:08
@Jefery open street map
user406009
Haskell is not a C++ alternative in any way.
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's from wikipedia vOv
user406009
Garbage collection, laziness, immutability ..
guys in assembly ax is an 8 bit register and test db 0 is a 1 byte(8bit variable). Then why is this statement wrong: mov sztest, [al]
17:09
not sure how you would normalise it though... you can't add fake lines, and how do you decide what lines to remove?
@Lalaland stop listing language features.
user406009
Those features all have good benefits, but they are opposite to the goals of C++.
user1804599
@Lalaland Haskell is a C++ alternative for applications that can be implemented in either Haskell or C++ given their requirements.
Languages are used to solve problems
@user2877144 We're busy. Can't you see?
17:09
@Elyse exactly
for some solutions C++ is better so Haskell isn't a valid alternative
@BartekBanachewicz no, problems are found so we can use languages
but there are other languages than Haskell that can supersede C++ in other areas
like aforementioned Rust
it's almost ready
user1804599
Some applications are not viable to be implemented in Haskell because of specific requirements, such as many hard real-time applications.
@BartekBanachewicz The set of said programs might be smaller then the set of all possible C++ applications.
17:10
@Jefery it certainly is
-2
Q: rand سؤال كيفية بناء برنامج التوليد العشوائي بلغة سي بلس بلس

so hamsBuilding a program that works to print 20 random number value per number of 1_6 every five memorable figures in the new line^_^ in program c++ بناء برنامج يعمل على طباعة عشريين رقم عشوائي قيمة الرقم من 1 الى 6 وكل خمس ارقام يتم طباعتها في سطر جديد بستخدام اكود c++

user1804599
Or applications that need to run on machines that have only 16 bytes of RAM, /cc @sehe Sinterklaas.
@orlp I like how the text is censored but the spreadsheet isn't.
I mean I really would prefer to use Rust than C++ for embedded
@Elyse and needing to be usable :P
17:11
because it explicitely has features that I want that C++ doesn't
which would make my code safer and nicer
@BartekBanachewicz You should be able to, but I don't what their status is regarding that
user1804599
@thecoshman I rather never need to use an airbag controller, but I'm happy if it isn't doing a GC cycle when I crash my car.
@thecoshman I do, the answer is "not yet really"
@Elyse lol
@thecoshman Haskell applications typically have higher usability ratio than say C++ ones
17:12
@BartekBanachewicz but that's the same about Rust support for anything :P
@thecoshman dunno, on desktop it's fine
@BartekBanachewicz :P you bite so easy
@BartekBanachewicz [citation needed]
@BartekBanachewicz I tried it about a year ago, it lacked libs. I'm sure it's much better now, but also much different
@thecoshman Either you're trolling (which gives me a chance to treat you as an uneducated bitch without consequences) or you're wrong (in which case I'm just correcting you)
user1804599
17:13
@orlp According to Elyse, Kanye West is a loser.
@Elyse why?
@BartekBanachewicz trolling, not that it does
@R.MartinhoFernandes Selective censorship, again.
user1804599
Time to implement let polymorphism.
@R.MartinhoFernandes what text?
17:15
@Elyse I'm serious though, why do you believe that one person you have never met in real life and which is only portrayed through sensationalized media meant to generate as much clicks as possible is a loser?
It's all there... no?
@orlp ffs, just stop this now
people say flippant things, get over it
<3 <3 <3
@thecoshman I assume the lines across the oceans are cables, not streets? :p
@melak47 probably sea routes
@ScottW yum yum
17:18
like shipping lanes
I guess that makes more sense, since you can travel those :D
I agree with @orlp that static typing isn't worth it for beginners
but only if you're teaching imperative programming
@BartekBanachewicz that's a good point
@melak47 it could be undersea cables, I'm not sure what that diagram is showing, but OSM has things likes train lines, boundaries, power lines even; all mapped, all as 'lines' (what type of line is meta data applied later). I think that diagram is just 'lines', ie, everything
17:19
for FP signatures can be introduced very quickly and they help understand the code there
I personally don't agree with functional programming (the strictest pure no side-effects version), but I don't know how well it would fit with beginners
it could be great to explain concepts
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz Disagree.
@BartekBanachewicz it's certainly one of the lesser concerns when starting
@thecoshman oh well. cool map anyway :)
user1804599
Instant feedback about your incorrect program is good.
user1804599
17:20
The more, the better.
@orlp I would certainly produce programmers that think radically different
@melak47 more or less all I care about
user1804599
@ScottW Define "FP".
@ScottW Programs are easier to read and refactor, and writing some types of things like concurrent processing or atomicity gets easier
@orlp Works reasonably well in the university where I studied.
17:21
@ScottW it's more about having pure functions, as they tend to be easier to test and 'prove' are right.
@ScottW floating point programming :D
@BartekBanachewicz let me just say it like this
I agree with the mentality of FP where you compose at the function level
@ScottW yes, you avoid side effects
user406009
@melak47 Where you write code to print out "Hello world" and you actually get "Hell world" because that's what "Hello " + "world" equals.
17:21
I disagree with the 'everything must be immutable' and 'no side effects' part of it
a functions return is only based on it's input.
@orlp its useful for things like threading
user1804599
In impure languages, you need discipline to maintain purity. In pure languages, the compiler takes care of that for you. Computers are better at discipline than humans.
@Lalaland ohh...is that what string interpolation is
Ell
Ell
It annoys me when people are wrong and say I'm wrong instead :V
17:22
@TonyTheLion your mum likes threading
@thecoshman a stateful function can still be pure
Ell
Ell
When it comes to meeting them at a particular time for example
@Elyse but purity can be inferred
State isn't impure.
@Ell you aren't alone in this, if its any consolation
17:22
there is no need to make it syntactically impossible
@thecoshman doesn’t account for e.g. lisps and schemes
@thecoshman she does? I'll have to ask her when I see her tonight.
if I want purity I should be able to ask my compiler to restrict something to pure
@BartekBanachewicz well, depends on your POV. Having to have the varaibles to a function, then some other state to think about makes testing hard
user1804599
No, purity should be the default, as it's safer.
Ell
Ell
17:22
I meet them at time X when I have the message to prove they said said it was X and they claim time Y
while having, say, a pure function on the interface use mutability inside it's function body
@orlp and otherwise, what context should it provide?
@TonyTheLion well, I presume so, all the women seem to be doing it these days
@orlp /purrify
@Elyse [citation needed]
17:23
An arbitrary stateful context with IO?
Just state?
Ell
Ell
I like Joy
@orlp you want pure by default
Ell
Ell
The language
user1804599
17:23
@orlp I consider side-effects unsafer and a lack of them safer.
@thecoshman no, there's no PoV. If a function is explicitely stateful it's pure.
a function that does not read global variables nor does I/O can be inferred to be pure
and even though that function body might use mutable construct in it's implementation
user1804599
@orlp No, it also has to return the same result for the same input regardless of time, if it returns.
@orlp so what? It's not about inference. It's about making sure you won't accidentally break referential transparency
from the caller's perspective it's pure
17:24
@orlp you've never used ST monad, have you?
@Elyse if it doesn't refer to global variables or I/O it does
@BartekBanachewicz no
@ScottW woof
user1804599
@orlp Not on a probabilistic machine.
@orlp it's designed specifically for pure functions needing local mutable state
Ell
Ell
I don't understand why the fact that ST is a monad is relevant
@ScottW run away!
17:24
@Elyse zzz
the straw man is over there
@Ell it's a particular context
what I'm against in injecting arbitrary context
FP is like sex, you may not be old enough to know what it is to be good at it, but you know you want it
A monad is secretely lurking around every corner
user1804599
@orlp Or if it refers to closed-over mutable variables.
I only want the contexts I need in my function and they should be explicitely specified
17:25
@Elyse fine, I should refine global to nonlocal
@BartekBanachewicz inject all the things!
user406009
@TonyTheLion Clearly we need a monad proposal for C++.
user406009
That will solve all our problems.
user1804599
@orlp :')
@ScottW just play it safe, don't force it
user406009
17:26
By replacing them with bigger problems.
@Lalaland hahaha
In Haskell you can mark every function as RWST IO () just fine and work with that /cc @orlp
but every Haskeller will tell you that it's plain bad to do so
home time fuckwits
@ScottW woof
@thecoshman bye fuckwit
meow
Ell
Ell
17:27
I used IORef for my assignment
remember
IORefs are very low-level
my proposal for a language with mutable function bodies
can be pure by default
@BartekBanachewicz low level savages
if you'd believe that to be better
17:28
pure by default is certainly better
if it refers to nonlocal state or I/O you'd have to mark it as mut or the compiler will disallow it
that's perfectly possible
Ell
Ell
I had to use them because GLUT callbacks
@orlp beh, rather primitive, but ok
@Ell ew, then you should've TQueued. That's the standard approach.
@BartekBanachewicz sure, but the idea is there
I appreciate the ideas of FP
17:29
but I simply disagree with disallowing all forms of mutability
and shoehorning them into monads
Ell
Ell
I asked on IRC and they told me the quickest/easiest way is IORefs
@BartekBanachewicz because mutability is simply how computing and the world works
@orlp let me see your monadic code that would benefit from implicit mutability
@orlp bullshit.
Ell
Ell
17:30
I asked on IRC and they told me the quickest/easiest way is IORefs
user1804599
There's a bug in my name mangling.
user1804599
It should mangle the empty identifier, but it doesn't. :P
user1804599
Because the empty identifier doesn't start with a capital letter, but the condition is String.length name = 0 || (name.[0] >= 'A' && name.[0] <= 'Z').
My latest problem with Haskell involved documentation - the docs on const function told nothing about what it's for.
@Ell Did you ask on IRC and be told that the quickest/easiest way is IORefs?
17:31
@BartekBanachewicz the core concept of mutability is an additional dimension, time
I had to ask Lounge
user1804599
@milleniumbug Assuming totality, the types tell you enough.
unless you argue that everything in this world is instant, there will always be a state changing over time
@milleniumbug you only need the signature to understand it
@orlp this is an analogy that's as good as the FP one
@orlp You can represent state changing over time just fine.
17:32
@milleniumbug hopefully you survived the ordeal
@BartekBanachewicz sorry, it wasn't obvious to me
besides, state isn't impure
In fact reactive libraries represents just that
Using monads
@BartekBanachewicz then what is?
besides
@orlp IO (at least in Haskell's terms)
user406009
17:33
@milleniumbug In case you don't know yet, the main intention is to use it with currying. You provide it one argument and bam, you have a nice b ->a function that always returns a certain value.
State is just a wrapper over s -> (a, s)
I'm sleepy
do you see any monads in s -> (a, s) signature? @orlp
Any impurity?
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz I/O in Haskell is pure.
I don't even know what that stands for
17:33
@BartekBanachewicz Wait. Weren't you the one claiming that IO in Haskell is pure?
@orlp it's a function that takes some s and returns a tuple of some result and new s.
@Jefery well it is, but for the sake of this discussion it's easier to assume that standpoint as an simplification
see @orlp doesn't even grok what State does
@orlp s is the state type and a is the type of the extra returned value
@Lalaland Sure, that's the answer I got from Elyse when I asked. What I'm sad about is that info should be in the Hackage docs
which I find ironic because
@BartekBanachewicz I don't grok haskell syntax
don't overgeneralize
17:35
5 mins ago, by orlp
and shoehorning them into monads
@orlp yet still you feel qualified to assess its internal mechanisms
@BartekBanachewicz I was under the impression that monads are part of the interface often, and not an internal implementation detail
hint: try to reduce having opinions about things you don't understand to a minimum.
@orlp with all due respect, I don't give a flying fuck about your impressions.
Woah
Calm down bartek
rude
I'm well known to be rude.
17:36
not a positive quality
Point being, the State iface, while monadic, isn't impure.
no need to be personal about something without due provocation
as it can be trivially converted to trivially pure s -> (a,s)
We went from him not being sure about what s -> (a, s) is, to him not understanding state in general to him not understanding anything about the discussion.
Calm down. He just asked what you meant with s -> (a, s)
@Jefery that's 99% of people criticizing Haskell's FP in a nutshell
17:37
That's not true.
okey back to the topic
I'm perfectly aware that you can model state changes using recursive iteration, extracting 'snapshots' so to speak
@orlp no idea why you would italicize "model" but w/e
C++ also models state
the fact that it gets direct HW backing is utterly irrelevant if that's what you want to whip out next
@BartekBanachewicz C++ models state
haskell models state changes
every change is explicit
what does it change really? I can write x += 1 in Haskell just fine
17:40
in C++ state can simply change as the time dimension moves forward, without an explicit call
I have a name x that represents the variable and I can change the value associated to it
user1804599
It's arguments and return values all the way down.
@orlp yes I am aware of the fact that C++'s state model is way more primitive (and thus faster)
that doesn't change a thing about the functional purity which was what we started with
I would just like to sleep.
explicit state access doesn't make the function impure, because it's isomorphic to direct argument passing
17:42
@BartekBanachewicz no?
that's not what I started with
13 mins ago, by orlp
@BartekBanachewicz because mutability is simply how computing and the world works
what makes functions impure is implicit state access
you call that 'the state modeling of C++ is more primitive and thus faster'
if you only infer purity basing on lack of state access, you're losing out on tons of pure functions that could be made pure if their data access was made explicit
Computing doesn't necessarily work with mutability.
and that's why your idea is, IMHO, bad.
17:43
Haskell programs can compute things and they don't involve mutability at that level.
@orlp this isn't true at all.
@Jefery the haskell implementation, however, does
@orlp irrelevant
Not really
user1804599
@orlp implementation detail.
17:44
Haskell implementation is in Haskell btw.
It spawns nodes and garbage collects them (as an overview)
@BartekBanachewicz it's not haskell all the way down
@orlp so what?
what does it change?
What's the practical implication on my haskell program?
it means that Haskell is built with mutable primitives
AFAIK it uses persistent data structures, which are actually treated as immutable from the moment they are created to the moment they are destroyed.
17:44
Change. Change never changes.
FFS people stop misunderstanding what "high level language means"
because that's how the world works
oh my fucking god
@BartekBanachewicz Misplaced "
user1804599
You can implement Haskell for a machine which doesn't allow mutability.
I swear, next time someone pulls that again I'll just fucking punch him in the face
@Elyse I'm not arguing against that
@BartekBanachewicz Who's founding the transport?
IMPLEMENTATIONS OF HIGH LEVEL LANGUAGES ARE FUCKING IRRELEVANT to the language itself
user1804599
17:45
That runs the very same programmers.
@orlp doesn't matter at all.
user1804599
The implementation details that exploit mutability are not available to the programmer, and thus irrelevant when discussing how Haskell programmers manipulate data in Haskell.
what is the best way to use intervals to play sounds in openframeworks? if you would make an app like this buzzedgames.com/sound-matrix-game.html
@Elyse but I never talked about haskell
you guys keep talking about haskell
11 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
5 mins ago, by orlp
and shoehorning them into monads
I presume that wasn't about haskell then
17:47
17 mins ago, by orlp
but I simply disagree with disallowing all forms of mutability
you meant some other language that models state etc. by monads
@Pieter-JanDeBruyne Good morning
pardon me what language was meant then
@BartekBanachewicz there were two separate arguments
@Jefery hello to you too good sir
user1804599
17:47
"Pieter-Jan De Bruyne" sounds Belgian.
@orlp Great I give you that one of them wasn't about haskell. how does that help defend the claim of "I never talked about haskell"?
it does doesn't it
user1804599
Silly Belgians capitalising tussenvoegsels.
are you going to list every message of you that didn't talk about haskell?
I should've said 'in this argument'
but whatever
17:48
@Elyse jij bent een tussenvoegsel
the stab I took at haskell was for disallowing all forms of mutabilty
what I probably should've added was 'as primitive'
you can model mutable state using haskell
but you can't have it as a primitive
see, you're making progress
your claims are moving from "wrong" to "irrelevant"
I don't consider them irrelevant
yeah I know you don't
user1804599
@orlp Yes, but beware that reads and writes in that model are restricted to certain scopes.
17:49
that's why you're making them
does anyone have an idea regarding my question ^ ?
user1804599
You can't close over the state in lambdas, for example.
@Elyse I don't think he means IORefs and company
user1804599
@Jefery Me neither.
Oh ok
17:50
I think he doesn't have any idea about haskell.
@Jefery Doesn't matter. It still holds.
user1804599
Even then, IORefs are not mutated by Haskell code.
Having established that, the claims about "disallowing mutability" are based on not knowing haskell
having established that, it's nonsense.
QED.
user1804599
They are mutated by I/O actions that the Haskell code possibly composes, then defines main as.
Is there some way I can ask you people a question about my code without posting a new question in SO? It is a fairly complicated to me, but I have a feeling not everyone would appreciate my question.
17:51
@Danny then what makes you think we would appreciate it?
Not knowing Haskell doesn't make you any less capable of arguing against "disallowing mutability".
@Danny Use Stack Overflow.
@Jefery arguing for "disallowing mutability" in principle not knowing the alternative provided is plain silly
@BartekBanachewicz how would you implement a O(1) hash map with the s -> (a, s) mutability model?
I was speaking in terms of being useful to everyone else on the forum, @BartekBanachewicz
user1804599
17:51
You cannot do this, for example:
user1804599
f :: State S ()
f = do
    blah $ map (\x -> modify (+ x)) xs
    return ()
@orlp Sssh, don't ask tough questions.
I should've inb4ed
user1804599
Unless blah takes [State S ()].
@Danny If you want to be useful to everyone else in the network you should post your question on Stack Overflow.
user1804599
17:52
The modeled state isn't available in the lambda.
@BartekBanachewicz I think performance arguments in computing can certainly be valid if they're concerning asymptotical bounds
@orlp I don't know if it's possible at all, but Haskell has other mutability models that allow that.
@ElimGarak I talked to some random brotherhood people in the street, and they know I went to the institute :o
The problem is it won't be relevant to anyone else... so I'll take that as a no.
@BartekBanachewicz Only the magical ones enable that.
17:53
@Danny You cannot know that.
user1804599
@orlp I think you can't, because State allows intermediate state retrieval which can be passed around.
@R.MartinhoFernandes they're still explicit
@BartekBanachewicz at the risk of sounding like I'm moving the goal post
@Danny And even then, Stack Overflow is made for questions and answers. The chat on the other hand is not.
True. See ya!
17:53
I am arguing "disallowing implicit mutability"
@BartekBanachewicz The point is that you can't implement it without mutability.
user1804599
You can with ST. ST does not allow you to retrieve multiple aliases to the state.
Of course disallowing any form of mutability is silly, I'm sorry if I haven't clarified that
are those models elegant, pure, Haskell models, or extensions that try to provide an interface to mutable machine models in haskell style?
@orlp They're pure. Just closed.
17:54
@orlp I don't understand the question.
I'd say ST is very elegant and it has a pure iface
user1804599
@orlp They are pure Haskell models.
@R.MartinhoFernandes what does closed mean?
@orlp You can't leave them. They behave like IO in that respect.
@R.MartinhoFernandes hrm, almost as if they grant a fundamental power that immutability doesn't have?
sorry for sarcasm, just getting a bit jaded =/
@orlp No worries, I agree with you.
user1804599
17:57
Is a program, that manipulates impure Python code and returns the resulting Python code, itself impure? Not necessarily. Haskell's I/O mechanism is precisely like that. To make the implementation realistic, the interface is somewhat limited; you cannot inspect the internals.
ST is more or less IO without I/O.
I mean, you could view RAM as I/O
@orlp Not really because I/O has volatility and impredictability (cf. user input)
how does git store commits? say I commit a file 1000x, are there 1000 copies in the repo then?
@R.MartinhoFernandes so does RAM :P

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