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21:00
@elyse I see
user1804599
I provided a counter-example.
Thanks for the contribution
so all I'm saying is that subjective value is a fitness function but evolution is not a subjective process. If Catalan culture really has subjective value more than other cultures then there's no reason why it should require any kind of protection, since it would not be under threat.
@Puppy And yet, somehow, I'm betting that if "the Universe" decreed that your culture was obsolete, you'd be fighting against that.
on the contrary, I goddamn hope my culture becomes obsolete.
user1804599
21:01
Objective-Value
> Secession would therefore cost Spain almost 20 per cent of its economic output, and trigger a row about how to carve up the sovereign’s 836 billion euros of debt.
Also, cultures don't die. They change.
whoa
otherwise that would represent a massive reduction in our evolutionary capacity.
> It would have a gross domestic product of $314 billion (£195bn), according to calculations by the OECD, which would make it the 34th largest economy in the world. That would make it bigger than Portugal or Hong Kong.
Its GDP per capita would be $35,000, which would make it wealthier than South Korea, Israel or Italy.
And Catalonia's contribution to the Spanish economy is twice that of Scotland’s to the UK.
21:02
and there's plenty of parts about it that could use a bit of evolution's improving touch
user1804599
Gross domestic products are gross.
in fact I think that I don't really like it at all
user406009
@Puppy The problem is that evolution doesn't necessary result in the best culture for the people.
@Jeremy Yeah, I've been hearing that too here. "If the north of Italy was to become independent we would be the 7th wealthiest county, or something".
it seems to involve a bunch of pointless whining about how Britain used to be an empire and how much better things were in the old days, and also binge drinking.
user406009
21:03
For example, a slave holding culture might be able to economically expand more than a more civilized one.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Didn't know you were north. Where?
@Lalaland Then don't you think it's interesting that slavery is going down the drain?
user406009
A culture where women are used merely as baby machines can have increased population growth over one where they are treated more fairly.
We're still waiting for the completion of the Sagrada Familia.
@Jeremy Verona
user406009
21:04
Most of the world's population growth is coming from places where females have few rights.
true, but that also means they can't help out in any other way, and in addition, that requires that the additional children actually survive.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Oh, neat. I was just in North Italy, but didn't get to visit Verona.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I've heard that name once.
Oh, right, Romeo and Juliet.
you would have to be already on the winner if you have 1 male, 5 females raising 20 children, compared to 5 males, 5 females raising 20 children, since the other culture has way more adult resources to dedicate to each child.
21:05
@Lalaland That's because they imported the medicines and technology from other cultures.
user406009
@Puppy But that's what we are seeing right now. More westernized cultures with high degrees of female education are shrinking in population size.
user406009
Look at the population figures.
population size is not the only measure of evolutionary fitness.
user406009
"We" are losing.
21:06
You seem to be forgetting about these things called ethics and morality.
who needs em?
I've watched Mumford and Sons in there.
It was awesome
@Puppy So called "civilized" societies, it seems.
user406009
I will agree that @Puppy is right and that culture shouldn't really be treated as a sacred cow. I don't care at all about culture.
user406009
I care about human rights.
21:07
ethics and morality are nothing more than evolution's guiding hand, as kindly hardcoded in our brains.
user406009
And equality.
they are nothing more than facades on the fact that our success is based around social interactions and maximizing our group potential, a means to an end.
Also, you could replace "evolution" with "God" in Puppy's discourse and you'd end up with something pretty interesting.
user1804599
I don't care as long as it's not disadvantageous to me.
user406009
@EtiennedeMartel Nah. Puppy's argument is consistent.
21:08
@Lalaland Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on God.
@EtiennedeMartel The main difference is that evolution is a fact and God is not.
@Puppy You're missing the point.
user1804599
You don't know whether God is a fact.
Evolution is a fact, yes, but you seem to be considering it to be some sort of divine force.
it is a law of mathematics that cannot be broken in our Universe.
user1804599
21:09
It's impossible to disprove his existence.
@Puppy That's blind faith.
schroedingers god
Not saying it's a bad thing.
not really
user406009
@Puppy But we can fight these things. We can go to the moon. A little evolutionary pattern should be no challenge.
21:10
1 + 1 = 2 is not blind faith.
user1804599
Solipsism master race.
The reason why we won't ever prove the existence of God is that nobody agrees on the definition.
Just saying you have more in common with religious people that you might think.
@Morwenn You make a good point.
It's hard to prove that something exists if you can't unambiguously define it.
21:10
the whole point of being faithful is that what you're believing in is not an actual thing, it's just some random hope
otherwise it's not faith.
@Lalaland This is the second demographic transition. Lots of people study this.
there's nothing faithful about believing that there is milk in my fridge.
user406009
@Morwenn Not really. No one can ever prove the existence of God because any disprovable "God" is never considered. It's sampling bias.
@Puppy Were mathematics created by humans, or were they discovered by them?
@Puppy is there milk in your fridge?
21:11
discovered I'd say
@Puppy That's something you choose based entirely on faith, because you cannot prove it.
If what the Bible says is true, we will call it history, not religion. If « God » exists, it means that we have something tangible or clearly define on which we put the « God » name, and we'll be able to analyze it as yet another natural and rational entity.
@TonyTheLion I just bought some and put it there so I fucking hope so otherwise I'mma have nothing to eat tomorrow.
user1804599
@TonyTheLion There may be what you perceive as milk in what you perceive as your fridge.
I don't like the content of my fridge
user406009
21:11
@Puppy Let me give a good analogy to my counterargument. True, evolution is a law, like gravity. But, we as thinking people can defy laws. We can build machines to escape gravity. We can structure society to avoid evolution.
No religion here. Religion is based on unconditional faith.
@Puppy :)
user1804599
@Morwenn goto faith; // unconditional
@EtiennedeMartel Well, that's not really true. We can state that the outside Universe has evolved towards more stable states for billions of years before we came into existence.
I was looking there every 15 minutes and the content of the fridge doesn't appear to be changing
user1804599
21:12
Look after ten years.
@Lalaland Our machines do not escape gravity in the slightest. They are always subject to it.
user406009
@Puppy But we can counter gravity with other forces.
user406009
Just like we can counter evolutionary tendencies.
i'm hungry
So basically: Catalonia feels it's pulling Spain's Economic weight, and feels that it is slighted by being absorbed by the rest of Spain. The people there feel their needs would be better served by a Catalonian government than a Catalonian voice in the Spanish government. Is that right? Then what's so bad about that?
21:13
it's really not countered at all.
user1804599
@Lalaland That's part of the law.
Look, all I'm saying is there's nothing bad with believing in something. We all do, because at one point we have to latch on some definition for which we might not necessarily all the data.
user1804599
You're not defying anything.
You are welcome
user1804599
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ is that a macaroni hamburger?
21:14
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ om nom nom
This looks fucking disgusting mate
what has science done
That said all of our laws are based on faith to begin with.
user1804599
Nice.
user1804599
21:14
Is it fastfood?
That hamburger's very existence proves that there is no God and that mathematics have failed us.
@elyse If you throw it...
@elyse I think it might be a fried macaroni hamburger
21:14
user1804599
Krusty Krab
user406009
@elyse The law of gravity says there is a certain force between two objects. We can counter that force through other forces. The law of evolution says that systems tend towards the most fit. We can counter that tendency through societal forces such as laws.
user1804599
@Jeremy lol
@EtiennedeMartel There's more than sufficient data to conclude that evolution is a fact of our universe, and it's blindingly obvious that every trait we have was given to us by evolution.
user406009
It's the exact same idea.
21:15
@Jeremy terrible
@Lalaland It's not even remotely the same.
user1804599
Krusty Krebs
@Jeremy And then he died
the law of gravity says that there is a certain force between two objects, and there always is without deviation.
that force is always applied.
user406009
21:15
And there is always the force of evolution.
Yeah, about that
evolution is not a force.
user406009
But that doesn't mean we can apply opposite forces so that the net is zero.
@Nooble that's slightly better, except ingredients are too homogenous
Can gravity suddenly stop working?
21:15
@Puppy Maybe. What if there's a God that created you 5 seconds ago with all your memories in your head?
I've always had that fear
user1804599
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Not according to our best understanding.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ No.
Again, all of our laws are based on faith. This discussion becomes pointless guys.
21:16
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ In no circumstances that we know about
@EtiennedeMartel Then he created me in a world in which evolution is a fact that cannot be denied.
@elyse looks nice
But we don't know what causes it right?
user406009
@Puppy Evolution is like a force. It's a tendency of systems to seek certain states.
user1804599
@milleniumbug it is.
21:16
In those we don't know about, however...
it's not like a force at all.
user406009
@Puppy In what way?
@EtiennedeMartel Yeah, I would rather eat that than that macaroni hamburger
forces impart limited, well-defined values of motion etc on their recipients.
21:17
Do you live in Canada?
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ 'round here it's called a "guédille".
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ MONTREEALLLL
@EtiennedeMartel uh, is that a lobster roll?
@Jeremy Basically. Typically it's made with shrimps, though.
user1804599
Also very nice:
user1804599
21:18
evolution, on the other hand, has pretty much unbounded potential.
@elyse Not dry enough
there's no mathematical value to the laws of the universe.
@EtiennedeMartel looks tasty. I miss good seafood. Inland struggles :<
user1804599
@набиячлевэлиь It's fucking delicieux.
21:18
Reubens are still the tastiest sandwiches around
@Jeremy Same problem here.
@EtiennedeMartel Nice
you can't say "1+1=2" is more than "the radius of a circle is 2 pi r"
@elyse It is, but that one's just not dry enough
@Puppy 2 + 2 = 5.
21:19
for certain values of 2, of course
@Puppy You never read 1984, right?
@elyse the texture of the cheese is lovely, but the taste is too salty for me
no I have not.
although frankly it seems to me like reading 1984 is rapidly becoming unnecessary and instead I can simply stick my head out the window.
@EtiennedeMartel I'm going to come there and live with you, how happy are you on a scale from Cat to Telkitty?
21:20
It describes a nightmare world for humans
user406009
@Puppy All I know is that an evolutionary fitness landscape, and object's motion on that lanscape, looks and behaves very similarly to a gravitational potential energy landscape.
user406009
Both are ways of describing how systems change over time to follow certain trends.
571
A: Write a program that makes 2 + 2 = 5

MichaelTJava Reflection is indeed the right way to go with abusing Java... but you need to go deeper than just tweaking some values. import java.lang.reflect.Field; public class Main { public static void main(String[] args) throws Exception { Class cache = Integer.class.getDeclaredClasses...

@Lalaland trippin hard
21:21
@Puppy In that book, "2 + 2 = 5" is a metaphor to show the Party's power. They claim that they're so powerful that if they decreed that 2 + 2 = 5, then it would be so.
It's a way of saying that if enough people believe something, then that thing becomes true.
(up to a certain point, of course)
@EtiennedeMartel Does that apply to that saying?
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I'm pretty happy I guess.
user406009
@EtiennedeMartel I'm interested, do you believe in absolute ethics?
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ My belief is that mathematics were created by man, so they can be whatever the fuck man wants.
user406009
21:22
Or is everything relative?
Just so we are clear before I come, I never liked the idea of Schroedinger's cat and I find it utterly stupid.
@EtiennedeMartel Odd how the rest of the universe does as we command, then
@Lalaland I don't. I think what we think is shaped by what we have seen before, and as such what you think is "right" depends largely on what was right around you.
user406009
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I think Schroedinger's cat was originally a counterargument to the proposed theory.
user406009
It was supposed to sound stupid.
21:23
Nearly 60h into W3
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ It's undeniably accurate, although not on cat scales yet.
@EtiennedeMartel No I mean, does it apply to the fact that if enough people believe that "if enough people believe something, then that thing becomes true." then that becomes true?
No, people can't do that
Only orks
@EtiennedeMartel It only becomes true from the perspective of how the people act. It's not really true and they'll find out about it eventually. You can see this in stock markets, for example
...no, wait, everybody can do that
21:24
@Puppy Yeah, but we're all people. Ideas are kinda important.
But orks are better for this purpose since there are more of them
they are important but they are far from the final arbiters of reality.
@milleniumbug The red ones go fasta.
@Puppy But reality is what you see of it.
not really
You can only see a small subset of it at any given time. How do you know if your subset is exact?
21:25
you can see as much food as you like, it's not gonna stop you from starving to death.
user1804599
user1804599
help I no understand
what's R
@EtiennedeMartel ?
user406009
What the heck? R takes both one and two arguments?
21:26
@elyse what do you not understand?
@milleniumbug the subset of R-rated movies
Starving to death is not that bad.
Being unable to drink or breath is far worse.
user1804599
@milleniumbug a predicate.
@Morwenn I don't think so
user406009
@elyse How can one predicate take both one and two arguments?
user1804599
21:26
@Jeremy the equivalence!
user406009
Does g return a tuple?
starving is horrible
not being able to breath will kill you fast
@Puppy My point is this: we are all biased observers of the world.
that's true, but also immaterial.
@Morwenn why? They are faster and much faster.
21:27
Nooble++17
user406009
@elyse Are g and f related at all?
I don't know. I have a limited experience in not eating, but not eating anything during 48 hours wasn't that bad of an experience.
@Nooble More like Skrub++17
there is nothing we can do except share our observations and accept the matching subset as reality.
@Nooble Whats that reference?
21:28
@TonyTheLion C++17.
@Puppy And that acceptance is faith.
@набиячлевэлиь What code did he write now?
user406009
I thought it was Nooble2016.
it's not faith.
@elyse What's f?
21:28
@TonyTheLion Well, he was dead for the entire fucking week
user406009
@Jeremy Probably an arbitrary function. The more interesting question is how f and g are related.
faith is pretty much by definition based on things that are not in that subset.
@набиячлевэлиь Give him a break, he's going to school.
user1804599
f(x) maps x to y
@TonyTheLion So am I
21:29
We all have faith in causation. And that's no more than faith.
@набиячлевэлиь timezones and shit
You believe that what you're seeing is reality.
whether or not it is actually reality is really quite immaterial.
in fact I'm quite certain that what I'm seeing is not reality.
@elyse So the right side is "exists a f such that..."?
schroedingers reality
21:30
however it simply doesn't matter.
user1804599
yes
yeah, I'm MITMing you
there's nothing possible to do other than accept it as real.
user406009
ITT: Puppy thinks he is a brain in a jar.
@elyse Then this is a really trivial statement.
21:30
there is no other possible rational basis for action.
Ok, now let's define « reality ». Only then we'll be able to really tell what's real and what's not.
user1804599
@Jeremy :[
user406009
@elyse What's g? How does g relate to f?
if I can't observe reality, I have no way of knowing what the consequences of my actions will be.
@elyse Just define f(x) to be the y that satisfies R(x, y) on the left
21:31
@Morwenn Nothing is real. Everything is permitted.
therefore there's no reason to act in any particular way.
@Puppy Cross your fingers and hope for the best.
Everything is real in its own paradigm.
user406009
@elyse If there is no relation, then this statement is trivially false.
@EtiennedeMartel "Hope" and "the only viable option" are not the same thing.
21:31
@Puppy you could perhaps just NOT accept it as real? What would happen then?
@TonyTheLion Nothing.
the only thing that would change is that I would no longer be capable of predicting the consequences of my actions, and therefore all decisions I make would be rendered meaningless.
in that case, it's clearly pointless to decide to take an action or hold a belief.
> The only thing [...].
@Lalaland I think the right side is missing a "exists an f such that...", in which case the statement is trivially true.
user406009
Hmm, did elyse plonk me?
the real reality could be that if I try to take a drink right now, whatever my real self is could explode.
21:34
Somehow realted (WARNING: it includes cocks).
or it could be that I'll get a sweet blowjob.
I would have no idea and therefore no reason to attempt to take a drink, or not.
Seriously, I can't get enough of this webcomic.
user1804599
@Morwenn Why warn? Cocks are a delight.
21:38
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I love lots of languages, it's just comparatively simple to find lots of videos on Java and Scala.
user1804599
True is not false, iff I'm correct.
@elyse Some people might still be at work
The lounge is obsessed with cock anyway.
Especially in Oglaf. They're kind of cute :3
user1804599
@fredoverflow You should watch vimeo.com/49718712
21:39
@Morwenn The number three looks like a scrotum.
<NSFW> 3 </NSFW>
evening all
user406009
@Jeremy I am still sure that g is related to f such that the statement is true for any f.
user406009
Unless elyse shared that info, we will never know.
@JonClements evening :)
@elyse How come I don't trust your links lately? ;)
21:40
@JonClements Good evening ^_^
@fredoverflow You should watch this as well.
user1804599
@fredoverflow His example involves burning C++98 manuals in parallel.
But you've probably already seen it :)
Sorry - been rushed of my feet... if I didn't have to deal with clients so I get paid etc... sighs
21:41
It seems that cocks did put an end to the philosophical discussion about stuff in general and more.
@elyse Ah, Go. I wrote an image vector library for Go once, for drawing Polygons and stuff. It was called "Go figure".
(not really, just had to flush the pun out of my system)
Anyway - haven't been made aware of any weird going on - take it it's been okay @TonyTheLion ?
@JonClements It has been fine as far as I'm aware.
@Morwenn politics, food, and sex. The lounge is basically the watercooler conversations that you avoid.
user1804599
@fredoverflow This is the Go figure. Go figure.
21:41
@TonyTheLion \o/
Thanks for taking out the sour spots :)
@Morwenn It was already ended since Puppy defeated everybody
@StackedCrooked I'm pretty sure I have watched all STL videos so far.
@elyse Looks quite amateurish...
@Puppy More like nobody cared enough to pursue. But you've won the argument. Congratulations.
user1804599
@fredoverflow The image, or Go?
21:43
@TonyTheLion also pushing for some other stuff... but it's not likely to happen, so won't say what that is in the likely event it doesn't come off... but I'm going to push anyway :p
@elyse The mascot
user1804599
@JonClements Thanks for trying anyway.
lol YouTube lets me upvote my own comments
you comment on YouTube?
you sink that low?
user406009
We need a gif animated version of that.
youtube commenters are cancer
actually that's not fair, most are ok
All comments are cancer.
Cancer is cancer
@ThePhD ST3
21:49
The only way to get a legitimate discussion is to force real names and identities.
@Rapptz only true choice
@ElimGarak No, that doesn't help
user406009
@ElimGarak But doesn't that mean that your comments here are also cancer?
See any facebook discussion
user406009
Where does it end?!?
21:50
@Lalaland Most def.
@milleniumbug In my experience, the toxic ones are usually from fake accounts.
@ElimGarak I can force a legit discussion with a Bren, doesn't make it practical
The only place where comments make sense are mathematics, programming or physics boards. You can write shit, but others will immediately put you down.
@ElimGarak In my experience however, the lack of anonymity doesn't prevent toxicity. Only accountability does.
> >comments
> >programming
lol
Well, you can write shit, but it won't stick.
21:52
@набиячлевэлиь boards
@ElimGarak perhaps, but I've found that on certain subjects it's best to avoid identity altogether
user1804599
Go is awesome.
people have inhibitions
then again, the removal of those inhibitions can let out a lot of toxic waste
Hey, exactly what we were talking about the other day: groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/forum/#!topic/std-proposals/…
I have given up on comments altogether, I read them only if I know the authors.
I get annoyed easily.
user406009
21:54
Also, @ElimGarak, how's that Kyrostat prototype going?
@Lalaland Lounge decided that DX is unworthy of Kyrostat.
user406009
What!
> because of the most vexing arse - pardon the typo
@ElimGarak :D
hardon the typo
@Morwenn C++ is doomed anyway
21:56
Well, DX implies Visual Studio implies MSVC implies riots in the Lounge.
@milleniumbug yawn
@milleniumbug Well, it's what have been told for at least the previous 10 years.
user406009
@ElimGarak It's a prototype. We can always port later.
user1804599
Maybe I will implement first-class patterns.
user1804599
Then match can be a function instead of a language feature.
user406009
21:57
People in this lounge can be idiots.
user406009
Including myself of course.
@Lalaland I think the point of contention for most was limited C++14+ support.
the apocalypse will be written in C++
user1804599
well actually dunno
@ElimGarak No, it's limited C++ support
user1804599
21:57
Pattern matching is complex.
That is, for any standard
@ElimGarak DX is way better than OGL.
@Rapptz Well, I'll take your word on it then.
Is ST3 free?
Yes. But people think that "Open" means something magical. It's as open as my asshole. Which is closed shut.
@ThePhD It's free as in WinRAR
2
:P
21:59
WinRAR free is only acceptable because I use it not-often enough for it to be annoying.
If I have to get a prompt to buy it every fucking time I open it, then no.

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