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08:01
@ThePhD D<3D :)
pssssssssst
so um
can somebody read my musings
Hi cinch
I've been thinking about trying to do a formal analysis and evaluation of C++ using formal logic
what do you think?
08:16
C++ escapes all logic hth :P
@milleniumbug I was trying to develop some sort of system to get a number to represent the determinism of a system
e.g. if I have a function with one bool argument but also access a global variable that is also bool
Also "oops not found"
@milleniumbug okay so
Try now
The idea was to try and develop a system to rate the determinism of a system
Such that given inputs, we should always be able to reason about the output
Inputs $I = \left \{I_{e} I_{I} \} \right $
Well.
Back to working with doc-tool.
libclang doesn't give me a way to get noexcept, const in member functions, constexpr, inline, or r-value ref for *this.
or at least I haven't found it yet
rip
Use the other API?
08:22
no thanks
@VermillionAzure the layout sucks
@VermillionAzure Are you familiar with Godel incompleteness theorem?
it's using 200px of my entire monitor
@milleniumbug Barely
Something about being unable to model a certain situation
@VermillionAzure what is this? a font for blind people?
Lounge<WebDesign>
08:23
@thecoshman I like it because it's big
It's readable
10
Q: How to find out whether a member function is const or volatile with libclang?

user1203803I have an instance of CXCursor of kind CXCursor_CXXMethod. I want to find out if the function is const or volatile, for example: class Foo { public: void bar() const; void baz() volatile; void qux() const volatile; }; I could not find anything useful in the documentation of libclan...

Morning.
@slaphappy what's the lounge logo ?
BTW "object" is wrong when talking about sets, the name is "element"
08:24
Morning
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva elements are objects
@Rapptz rip
Morning guis
ikr
its over
@VermillionAzure wrong terminology, sorry.
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva elements are objects that are members of a set
08:25
You don't fucking get it
it even has a +250 bounty
I have reason to believe this is the best I can do
@VermillionAzure you have like two words per line, it's terrible
@thecoshman It's just a draft
You say "This means that “the object/set x is a member of the set A.”. As if OBJECT were opposed to SET which is retarded,
Object is either SET or ELEMENT
Fix your fucking wording
1
A: Clang Const Qualified C++ Method

Richard SmithIn the C++ interface, the way to check this is using CXXMethodDecl::getTypeQualifiers(), or using FunctionProtoType::getTypeQuals() (depending on whether you have the declaration or the type). The Qualifiers::Const bit indicates whether the method (or method type) is const. In the libclang C API...

08:26
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva But what is an element then?
@VermillionAzure anything
Isn't Richard Smith a clang dev?
@Rapptz y
@melak47 "anything" is very imprecise...
08:27
Clang gave him cancer
uh did he switch roles?
wtf
@VermillionAzure anything that isn't a set
this answer is literally "pull requests welcome"
I wonder what does MSVC give to you then
08:27
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva ...like a category?
Xeo
Xeo
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Or that is a set :P
@VermillionAzure Yeah, knowing it would be helpful since you can know what you can and cannot use formal logic on (IOW know your limits)
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva what? sets can contain sets...
No she's arguing that a set doesn't contain objects and that objects is bad terminology
I stopped studying set theory when I couldn't get set<int> to compile because std:: was missing
2 years wasted
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva But here's what I propose
Xeo
Xeo
> she
You know who that is, do you?
I realised that token iteration
is honestly terrible
08:28
@Xeo ...not LRiO?
because of templates
@VermillionAzure I certainly wouldn't mix element and object in a C++ oriented text about set theory...because you might have a set of types, so are types objects?
templates ruin that too
Xeo
Xeo
@VermillionAzure Cicada.
@Rapptz Just use the goddamn other API
08:29
@melak47 An object includes mathematical constructs
If I could do it then so can you
Xeo
Xeo
@Rapptz Needs a "Templates Ruined My Life" shirt
An element is a subset of object
@Xeo she's a she, get over it, move on
What part of "no" didn't you get?
I need this to work via Python.
C++ <-> Python = bad time
08:29
A set is also an object, therefore, it is correct to say that sets contain objects
@Rapptz The "I want constexpr and value category etc" part
Unless I ship some external executable (hint: bad idea)
Can a set NOT contain anything besides itself?
it's not my fault libclang is terrible
:<
08:30
@VermillionAzure Yeah but it's stupid to oppose object to set as in your wording
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva It's bad to define something in terms of itself
Suppose I remove the definition and knowledge of objects from my piece
Well at least you got the title of your blog post right
How do I define an element?
> Idiot Tries to Reason About C++ Using Basic Set Theory
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Then how should I define an element?
08:32
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva I prefer the term 'Naive set theory'. It’s very honest about itself.
this top tier commit right here
> This is the “inclusion” or “member” operator. This means that “the element x is a member of the set A.”
did someone have to review this?
Stop opposing object/set like they are opposites jesus fucking cryst
08:33
> Each collection is called a set and the objects in the collection are called elements of the set.
> Idris is free software with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY.
Thanks for proving my point m8
That’s exactly what I like to see at the start of my sessions.
> This C++ course provided to you with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY.
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva I dunno, seems either redundant or imprecise to refer to "the element x" before you establish that it is in the set ;)
08:34
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva the definition of an object must already exist
objects that belong to set a set are called members
okay you know what
@VermillionAzure just forward declare it
go ahead with your vague and imprecise terminology
@melak47 there, good solution
I mean who cares about standard maths terminology amirite
And here I was trying to be helpful
08:35
so outside of "use the C++ API"
Next time I'll shut up and laugh behind my monitor
does anyone here have helpful advice
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva « Standard » math terminology.
Last time I asked a question about terminology on Math.SE, everyone seemed to think it was a good idea to create their own name for a simple function.
@Rapptz :/
@Morwenn Set theory is fairly well defined I was told
08:37
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva done.
too late you have lost an admirer
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva wait, you mean you even admired me in the first place?
wtf?
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Maybe.
> A set is a grouping of objects; objects that are within a set are called elements of a set.
Yeah that's reasonable
10 hours ago, by Scott W
On December 1st, 2015 the Lounge is permanently being shut down. Pick up your things before they are bulldozed with the building.
^ seriously?
yes.
Well you can always leave your things if you like.
Did I get the 3 basic axioms of ZFC right?
where are we moving, to the IRC-channel?
to your mums house
Xeo
Xeo
08:40
Are you actually believing something Cicada says?
@VermillionAzure It would be nice to introduce the notation of those btw
@TonyTheLion her internet connection sucks, so I hope not
It's public since I wanted a bit of review
Xeo
Xeo
08:40
I meant Filip
@FilipRoséen-refp finally, we'll have a C++ room!
@Xeo Oh good you didn't mean me.
The point is to disassemble C++ language constructs in order to maximize the predictability of the computation of C++ and reduce ambiguity in the system
@FilipRoséen-refp No :/
08:41
@Xeo Scott W = Cicada?
@FilipRoséen-refp on SO. instead of the lounge
Xeo
Xeo
@FilipRoséen-refp No, @AnastasiyaAsadullayeva is
@Abyx go join Bar<C++> if its so terrible here for you
$a \in b$
Sometimes I wonder if Xeo gets paid to disclose my identity
08:41
I'm lost.. as happens from time to time I have no idea what is going on
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva hhahaha
Xeo
Xeo
Nothing is happening to this Lounge
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva pay me more and I will refute whatever @Xeo is saying
Xeo is lies Xeo is falsity embodied
Well anyways
08:42
@Xeo Good job trying to spread rumors Xeo, aren't you ashamed
I can easily be bought, $50 / week and you can get me to promote std::auto_ptr
Do you guys feel it would be interesting to have a formal, logical way of determining the amount of ambiguity in a system and to have concrete ways of reducing such ambiguity?
Xeo
Xeo
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva I'm shameless
@VermillionAzure too many fancy words in that sentence.
@FilipRoséen-refp cheaply venal?
08:43
@FilipRoséen-refp Would you like a ruler to measure ambiguity in C++ code?
@VermillionAzure There are already programming languages that are based on formal logic you know
who fancies binary search trees?
@VermillionAzure vaginas? sure, those are quite awesome.
@MarcoA. memememememe
@VermillionAzure If something like that existed I'd apply it to like 95% of your questions
08:44
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva So... why are they not popular yet?
@MarcoA. I'm having an affair with a particular binary search tree
<3
you guys know how to have fun
@VermillionAzure Because they are very painful to work with, but they are used in the industry
@TonyTheLion the best of kinds.
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Okay; I just wanted to gauge the interest of doing such a thing and if it would be nice to see
And also to see if my idea is complete shit
08:46
I walked out to buy food, came home with sweets and cigarettes.. I'm still trying to see where I went wrong
Seriously, there are people publishing research paper of 2 pages, including the bibliography. When I was in the field, we always had to do more, even for small papers.
@TonyTheLion "go hug a binary tree"
sure, I answered a few emails on the way, and spoke on the phone, but still..
@VermillionAzure It's very painful because it's so different from "conventional" programming but it makes very resilient software
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva What langauges? Prolog? Haskell? Lisp?
08:46
@Morwenn whitespace is key; everyone knows that the accuracy of a paper is measured by looking at its length!
German company Siemens and French Matra use B-Method to program the metro software
Even... Lisp isn't pure and reasonable in all aspects from what I remember
Prolog is different
Haskell is not first order logic, neither is lisp
There's Lamport who's also developing a similar language
@FilipRoséen-refp The paper I'm looking at is about a parallel algorithm for GCD. They simply explain briefly how it works, dump the pseudo-cde for the algorithm, then dump the bibliography and it's done.
08:47
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva ...I don't think I've heard of B-Method before
@VermillionAzure Because it's very little used
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva So I'm going to guess that most people haven't seen such an analysis before
say we have this function
bool f(unsigned char a) { return (a % 2 == 0) ? true : false; }
hmm.. students who still haven't really grasped the idea about objects with dynamic-life time, and still ask if they can use boost to finish their project. what the.. what!?
We have 1 direct input; it's explicit
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva I thought that the Paris metro used Petri nets.
08:49
@Morwenn Only for the fishing module
@Morwenn no, Paris metro is a Petri Dish
There are 256 possible inputs and 2 possible outputs
Oh, sorry, IIRC they used Petri nets to validate that everything would work.
We can directly translate the expression into if a is even <--> return is true
La méthode B est une méthode formelle qui permet le raisonnement sur des systèmes complexes ainsi que le développement logiciel. La méthode B permet de modéliser de façon abstraite le comportement et les spécifications d'un logiciel dans le langage de B, puis par raffinements successifs d'aboutir à un modèle concret dans un sous-ensemble du langage B transcodable en Ada ou en C, exécutables par une machine concrète. De manière analogue pour la modélisation système[pas clair] la méthode B permet de formaliser le système et son environnement de manière abstraite, puis par raffinements successifs...
See last paragraph
08:50
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva FOL stuff is cool.
Petri nets and Méthode B are probably complementary
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva I cannot French
Or Italian.
@VermillionAzure Look at the code :D
Whatever.
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva It's nice but idk about state
Temporal logic of actions (TLA) is a logic developed by Leslie Lamport, which combines temporal logic with a logic of actions. It is used to describe behaviours of concurrent systems. == Details == Statements in temporal logic are of the form , where A is an action and t contains a subset of the variables appearing in A. An action is an expression containing primed and non-primed variables, such as . The meaning of the non-primed variables is the variable's value in this state. The meaning of primed variables is the variable's value in the next state. The above expression means the value of x today...
08:52
@VermillionAzure because if the problem has a solution it will be found in a finite amount of time, if it hasn't the program might loop forever. Is that an acceptable compromise?
This is what Lamport has developed, it's related but somewhat different because it takes time into account
@MarcoA. Okay, but what I'm proposing is a system to gauge the determinism/ambiguity of a system
Say we have a function
wtf Marco
is this how NVIDIA develops their drivers
    bool F(unsigned char u) {
    	if (u % 2 == 0) {
    		return true;
    	} else {
    		return false;
    	}
    }

Is this a pure function?
08:54
> Optimizing Bogosort for binary search trees.
@VermillionAzure Yes it is
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Yes. It has 1 input with 256 possible values and 1 output with 2 possible values.
Now try this one.
@VermillionAzure That's not relevant though
bool b;

bool G(unsigned char u) {
	if (u % 2 && b == 0) {
		b = !b;
		return true;
	} else {
		return false;
	}
}

Is this a pure function?
@VermillionAzure no
08:56
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Why? Because it mutates state.
Are you teaching me something
But, also as important, it accesses mutable state that is not local to the function.
There are therefore 2 inputs to the function; 1 explicit, 1 implicit
[[pure]]
Purity of a function is fairly easy to determine really
However, let's consider this:
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva If we narrow down the domain of u to {even, odd}, how many possible configurations of inputs do we have?
08:57
i am pure
The number of configurations is irrelevant
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva But they can still be enumerated
But that has no influence on purity so idg what you're rambling on about
unplonks Cinch to be able to read this hilarity without going into transcript
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva We're not just talking about purity.
There are four possible configurations: {even/odd, true/false}
08:59
...which doesn't matter.
4 combinations of 2 binary values
Conclusion: this function has a low information density, then what?
17 stars
I wonder if Cinch has me plonked.
08:59
Who's Cinch
The one who's cinching is Cinch.
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Now, let us consider that we cannot reason about the value of our global b because we are looking exclusively at our function G

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