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6:00 PM
@Prismatic search for me saying "gdb" in this room
 
Ell
I like gdb a lot actually
 
Mar 7 '13 at 10:46, by Bartek Banachewicz
> lunch gdb
most relevant result :)
 
@Prismatic Do they use clang or something for the actual build?
 
Ell
I am (still) considering writing pretty printers in python instead of debug string methods
 
I sometimes almost wish gdb worked for me
 
6:01 PM
@fredoverflow mingw works, and if you can somehow get it to tell clang to use mingw's stdlib it might work...I dunno
 
@BartekBanachewicz Even Puppy had a bad experience with the qtcreator gdb debugger plugin... Maybe I've just been getting lucky. Has anyone used lldb yet?
 
@melak47 But they don't use a custom compiler written in Java or something, right?
 
@fredoverflow that'd be crazy
 
user406009
@fredoverflow They might just for auto completion.
 
user406009
Not for actual code compilation.
 
6:07 PM
Who would think to themselves "Hmm, I want to create a C++ IDE. Also I'll create my own C++ compiler to go with it!"?
 
user406009
Pre-clang, you didn't really have an option if you wanted code completion.
 
user406009
Now there's libclang, but even libclang has limits
 
user406009
(Although looking at their current api, they have filled some of the gaps I was running into the last time I tried using it)
 
@Prismatic lol "even puppy"
 
My engine is almost done! Time to setup matrices.
 
3v0
6:13 PM
being unemployed is cool right?
 
/me sings and dances around.
I love this song.
 
Fuck all mosquitos. Fuck them in the ass. Gawd. Useless creatures.
 
@Nooble what matrix lib will you be using/
 
@Prismatic glm.
 
@ElimGarak Do they even have an ass?
Also I think you'd need a tiny penis for that.
 
@3v0 can be
 
3v0
huh
 
@EtiennedeMartel wait who's silly o.O
 
Ell
@barted gdb doeant work for you? O.o
 
I knew it'll grab your attention.
 
3v0
6:21 PM
I aint silly
 
look elliotte is drunk
@3v0 are you a pole
how many more can this room take
 
3v0
im not polish
your name is polish
 
@Griwes Serious question?
They do shit, but it works a little bit differently than in humans. But they do have an "output port".
 
also I soo can't wait for my new laptop
at first I thought it'd be "oh ok up to 4 more weeks w/e"
but now it seems like eternity
 
Blargh.
I can't do unique<int> p, and then do *p, because what the hell is that supposed to dereference to. ;~;
Maybe I'll just make it reutnr int&
And then do some template magic on the inside.
 
6:26 PM
> In the coming months, Intel plans to deliver more than 48 processors in the 6th Gen Intel Core processor family
hmm
 
Ell
That is supposed to derefence to int& no?
 
int i = 0;
*i; // <--- what does this mean?
 
Ell
oh. error
Int is not dereferenceable
 
what's unique<T>? like a non-optional optional? variant with one element?
 
Ell
You said unique a sec ago
 
6:27 PM
I mistakenly read it as unique_ptr
 
Ell
I read it as unique_ptr, my.bad
 
unique<T> is unique_ptr generalized for any T, including non-pointers.
I'm using it for GLint handles.
 
... what
 
Ell
Wut
 
scrubs don't understand :p
 
user406009
6:28 PM
@ThePhD Cast the int to intptr_t. Use unique_ptr. Done.
 
Ell
Oh I see
 
@Prismatic FILE_HANDLE, sem_t, FT_Face, whatever isn't traditionally a pointer.
 
SJD
hello!!
 
Ell
I get it.
 
SJD
any openGL fan here?
 
user406009
6:29 PM
@ThePhD Or just store int*.
 
Ell
*unique<int>() should just give the value
 
@Lalaland I can save on dynamic allocations if I just take the value as-presented.
 
Ell
What else would it give?
 
@Ell Dunno! That's why I was trying to figure it out.
Alternatively, I could just make operator* not exist if T is not a pointer.
That seems... a tiny bit more sane?
 
6:30 PM
@SJD Yes.
 
dereference doesn't make sense on non pointer types so it shouldn't compile
don't make it just return the value or something weird like that
 
Well, GLint is KIND'VE a pointer.
 
user406009
@ThePhD One dynamic allocation.
 
Just. uh.
 
user406009
Who cares.
 
6:31 PM
I do! \o/
 
Ell
what do you gain for generalizing over pointers and not pointers?
 
being usable for file descriptors for example
 
@SJD uh oh
 
I'd rather name it "unique_handle"
because that's what it is, a handle
 
@unordered_meow That was its name before, but... eh.
 
6:33 PM
I have a unique_handle for HANDLEs, which are void*
 
unique is shorter. And also works with unique<T*>
 
SJD
!!! So I'm facing an issue which I can't understand (at least I investigated from many sources, but still.. didn't reach to any resolution), regarding corners lighting (it's about spot light)
 
SJD
Some corners are not visible (by the light)
Lemme upload a gif
2
 
Ell
You should just forward the dereference operator if T supports it
Not if T is a pointer
@melak you can kinda shoehorn in handles to unique ptr
But yeah I guess
 
6:35 PM
@Ell it's a typedef for unique_ptr<void*, HandleDeleter> :p
 
not every handle though
 
Ell
@melak that's how I'd do it
 
it needs to meet requirements for NullablePointer (which includes being comparable with and constructible from nullptr)
 
Ell
Apart from in opengl I wrote a name class
 
ints don't do that
 
Ell
6:36 PM
Which is like template<resource type> class name
 
Right, the full definiton of unique is...
 
Ell
Where resource is an enum
 
template < typename T,
		typename TDx = ::Furrovine::default_deleter<T>,
		typename Supplier = ::Furrovine::default_get_null<T>,
		typename Validator = ::Furrovine::default_is_null>
	class unique;
 
Ell
Supplier, validator? O.o
Also that ain't a definition ;)
 
declaration. :P
 
6:37 PM
TBH
 
p = default_value(); // when my_unique = nullptr is called
is_null( value ); // my_unique == nullptr
Are the reasons for those.
 
I don't think shoehorning openGL into C++-ish RAII makes sense anymore
I think working with OpenGL from Haskell changed my mind about that
 
shit, my wheel is broken
 
Ell
I think it works perfectly well
It's basically new & delete
 
@Ell OTOH you don't really use it
@Ell except not quite, and the subtleties kind of make it collapse
 
user406009
6:39 PM
@BartekBanachewicz What? You want manual resource cleanup?
 
Ell
Which subtleties?
 
@Lalaland well, since Haskell is GCed, I don't do resource cleanup
 
@BartekBanachewicz why not? (just curious, haven't used OpenGL that much, nor Haskell)
 
okay, here's the deal
if you approach a rendering API with a purely functional mindset, you have to treat state as a necessity
that makes you realize that what you actually commit to the GPU doesn't necessarily map to your actual data nicely
OOP-ish C++ approach that I took in C++ and I see a lot of people taking makes you want to find connections between your actual model and OpenGL model
 
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz So you are saying to construct a wrapper like github.com/tomaka/glium
 
6:40 PM
I think RAII works great, especially since you can share handles and what not and have clean up work very nicely. State management is orthogonal.
 
I think fine-tuned pools are a better alternative.
 
user406009
Even with a resource pool, you still need resource cleanup.
 
which you might call "Garbage-collected OpenGL" if you so wish
 
user406009
If only to return resources to the pool.
 
Ell
@bartek but we are talking about resource cleanup here, are we not?
Not a particular renderer model
 
6:42 PM
off the top of anyone's head, will std::unordered_map::insert(begin, end) overwrite existing entries?
 
yes, but if the pool manages the objects, destructors aren't necessarily the most convenient option
 
SJD
 
I know it goes against typical C++ principles.
 
Ell
You don't need to find connections with RAII, its just about making sure glDelete is called
 
@zneak insert can fail iirc, so probably not
 
SJD
6:43 PM
@BartekBanachewicz that's my issue. When using Spot Light, basically if I'm watching a corner, from lateral, it is not lit. That happens to all corners of my box.:D. Do you have something fast in your mind about this? I can provide also, the code used
 
why not just look it up
 
@Lalaland Wait, it's for Rust? I was getting excited...
 
@Ell I think it's a lot of stuff that you can achieve more easily with manual deletion TBH
on some level you need it wrapped, of course
 
@zneak There's no return value. You'd have to inspect the container to figure out if it worked at all.
 
I guess I'm arguing on the actual level right now
 
6:44 PM
In other words: it's a pile of shit.
 
@ThePhD I actually want it to overwrite elements. I just don't know if it's what it's supposed to do.
 
Ell
@bartek I'm not sure what you mean. Why would manual deletion be better in any case?
 
I'd tell you to go and implement something that does batched rendering, but that'd just be cruel
 
@zneak I think it will just ignore the elements.
 
that's my intuition given that the value_type overload does about that
oh well, time to implement a tiny function
 
6:45 PM
Well, give it a spin up on stacked-crooked.coliru.com.
 
@BartekBanachewicz What did you buy?
 
See if it does what you want.
 
@zneak Overwriting would be inconsistent with the single element insert
 
Ell
I can't see how when you call glDelete is related to any other aspect of a renderer at all, really
 
@Ell it calls for shared ownership, and shared_ptr isn't always the best option compared to pools. Especially if you want to separate the destruction commit.
 
6:46 PM
@zneak std::copy
 
@zneak IMHO, you should write a version of insert that returns a pair of iterators for "how far I got". If returned.begin() == returned.end(), then it succeeded. If not, it failed.
 
Ell
You can still pool things with destructors, right?
 
@Ell I'll ask differently: what's a name for a pool with threaded destructors?
 
(And it will have failed at returned.begin())
 
Ell
I think we have drifted a little though
 
6:47 PM
Wait, what does "overwrite elements" mean?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ the point is I don't know yet.
 
it means if the key already exists, overwrite with the other value
 
Ell
I think the question is why do these things have shared ownership semantics
 
@Ell because that's much more efficient
 
@BartekBanachewicz So it's assembled?
 
6:47 PM
sudo update-alternatives --install /usr/bin/xmlbadlet xmlbadlet `which xmlstarlet` 45
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ no, I'll be able to pick a model in those 4 weeks
 
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz How do you know to return something to the pool without destructors?
 
> Giving game a bad score because it has some technical issues (even though issues are devastating: I wasn't able to play MP as of yet, and it's been a month since release) is really childish.
 
@Lalaland "How does a garbage collector work"
 
can you use std::copy on a map? I've never seen it used on associative containers
 
Ell
6:48 PM
> I don't think shoehorning openGL into C++-ish RAII makes sense anymore
 
I thought you wanted something else.
 
Ell
So by this, you mean "I think most opengl things have shared ownership semantics"?
 
@Ell well, okay. It makes sense for fun and trivial-ish things. For a prod-quality graphics library, I wouldn't do that.
 
Dunno, OpenGL with RAII works fine for us.
 
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz Two main techniques, reference counting with destructors, or walking the entire reachable state of the program, but that's not deterministic.
 
6:49 PM
We make production-quality graphics.
 
refcounting isn't GC
 
user406009
It is a bad GC, but it's still GC.
 
@zneak Yes.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's fine? I was just expressing my personal opinion. I also wouldn't use C or PHP, but a lot of companies make great products in C and PHP.
 
IME refcounting is garbage non-collection.
 
6:50 PM
Walking the entire reachable state of the program doesn't look like something you would always be able to do in a finite amount of time < 1 year.
 
You can use it to copy from or into a map.
 
Or garbage deadlock.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ yet still that's what GCs do :)
 
Or garbage destruction order mess.
Fuck you, asio
 
Input works just like you'd expect. For output you just have to use std::inserter(my_map, my_map.begin())
 
user406009
6:51 PM
@BartekBanachewicz And people go to great lengths to avoid garbage collection in GCed languages.
 
Same with std::set
 
Ell
I don't entirely understand your point but ah well, I'm sure our opinions will differ anyway :P
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol
 
user406009
Such as Java.
 
user406009
(For soft-realtime applications such as games)
 
6:51 PM
Yeah, I don't understand Bartek's point as well
 
@Ell mm, why don't you actually try to implement batching with content changing often.
 
I guess we should be enlighted by Haskell's state of mind first
 
or at least try to think about how you'd design it
 
We have batching.
 
you might get to different conclusions than mine, and I'll be happy to hear about them
 
6:52 PM
batching is hard :[
 
What do you mean by batching? Sounds like an ambiguous term.
 
after all, it's not like I'm the CG guru (or ever was, really)
 
cant wait till vulkan
 
Batching is pretty much the only reason we have code wrapping OpenGL calls.
 
@Prismatic but bitching is easy!
 
6:52 PM
batching is merging geometry to reduce draw calls
 
s/draw calls/state change commits/
 
Yeah, it's mostly state change commits.
 
Some people use batching to refer to sorting draw calls
 
That's also why uniform buffers (constant buffers) were introduced to OpenGL (D3D 11).
 
6:53 PM
We do 500Hz, soon to be 1000Hz.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What kind of application?
 
Is "merging" like "oh wait, we can merge these three triangles into a polygon" sort of thing, or....?
 
How does one sshfs with a pass-protected key on Windooze?
 
No, just pooling them in one buffer.
 
This is so bad
 
6:54 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ it depends, really. You want to aggregate over the resource that's the most expensive to change.
This can be vertices, but it can also be textures for example
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ No, it's "all of these draw calls use the same model/texture/materials, there's no reason to make individual draw calls for each of them and re-upload the info for each one".
 
I think I see
 
@Prismatic science
 
e.g. Hate batches "over" textures ATM
but I stream vertices
 
1000hz opengl sounds very interesting
 
6:55 PM
1000 FPS.
Kinky.
 
@caps Of course, if you're inserting into a map, the input type has to be a std::pair<key_type, value_type> which is not very common.
 
Not 1000fps. Just 1000 updates.
 
@Prismatic OpenGL 1.x didn't really specify computer screen as the main medium FYI
 
Ooh.
 
@ThePhD emplace though :D
 
Ell
6:56 PM
why don't you just sort all of the things you draw by texture etc. And then only update when necessary?
 
No point in generating more frames than your hardware can handle.
 
Why would you update opengl 1000x if you're not going to render it?
 
emplace gives you an "optional iterator"
 
Ell
Sort them into groups I mean
 
@Ell because it's more complicated.
 
user406009
6:56 PM
@Prismatic Non-screen targets? Maybe GPU computing or video output?
 
@melak47 insert does that too, except in the insert( begin, end ) case, no?
 
to elaborate a bit, it's sometimes hard to predict which should you sort by and in which order
say, even changing GPU VRAM can change your bias
 
After you have grouped by a model, order matters?
 
@Prismatic you don't. Hence batching. We batch frames.
No updates should be dropped.
 
Yes. Also, pre-sorting can sometimes be slower than just basic Run Length Batching, where sequential calls are grouped by any call not similar to the last one breaks.
 
6:58 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ let's say you have 3 models and three textures, and want all combinations. Do you set vertices for a model and swap textures, or do you set a texture and swap models?
 
Ell
I still don't see how raii is related to this vOv
 
This is the default mode for most batchers, including the ones found in XNA.
 
Like rendering {A1, A2, A3} then {B1, B2} and rendering {B1, B2} first changes something?
 
no, but rendering a1,b1,a2,b2 does
and it's a tuple of more than 2 elements ofc
and then there's the issue of VAOs being inefficient
and feedbacks (in all stages, namely vertex feedback and multipass rendering)
and...
 

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