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13:00
@BartekBanachewicz nice of you to summarize your PoV
@Griwes keep generalizing
user1804599
Robot you had a skew beard right?
user1804599
Use bees!
13:00
43 secs ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
what's bullshit is this close-minded "I'm the most important person on the road" attitude
@AlexM. lolwut, is that how it works in Romania?
I'm literally pro-different set of rules that make people safer.
That's your attitude.
anyway, I think the best solution is to build special lanes for cyclists which are enclosed
What you are advocating is making the law "the same for everyone" regardless of actual outcome
13:01
@Griwes That's a false dichotomy.
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes, he was on the right and I wanted to go straight onto a road w/o priority
Your bias is showing, etc.
I had to let him pass first
@R.MartinhoFernandes It was a false dichotomy as a reply to @Bartek's one.
13:01
In other words it was 100% consciously written that way.
I don't even.
@Griwes Oh, that had scrolled out. Sorry.
@AlexM. That's so stupid.
anyway the cyclist thing just showed me that there are so many things to take into account while driving that it's not even fun
fuck that
I'll just work my ass off until I can afford a driver
@Griwes The fact that you consciously write bullshit doesn't change the fact it's still bullshit.
user1804599
13:02
I guess you don't cycle in the city, do you?
@BartekBanachewicz likewise vOv
Stopping a car to let a bicycle pass should not be a thing :/
@BartekBanachewicz No, I don't. I also don't drive in the city.
@Griwes wait do you actually participate in the traffic at all
@Griwes right.
@BartekBanachewicz No true Scotsman?
13:03
honestly cyclists are the people I dislike meeting in traffic as a pedestrian too, but it was especially bad while in a car :<
user1804599
New Horizons Closest Approach to Pluto: 7:49:57 a.m. EDT, July 14, 2015
@R.MartinhoFernandes nah, not that. Anectodal at a stretch.
user1804599
so cooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
as a pedestrian it annoys me that they run around at high speeds
Some day someone will use this discussion in a lecture on logical fallacies.
13:03
@BartekBanachewicz Who cares if he drives at all?
in a car I was always afraid one of them would just randomly decide to cut my way
Pretend I said what he said. Now argue it.
@R.MartinhoFernandes no one, well, no one trying to make a point; that would be a fallacy
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh but of course
2 hours ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
PLUTO TOMORROW
I'm not saying that what he's saying is of less value because he doesn't drive
BUT
13:04
@AlexM. anyway, I think the best solution is to build special padded cells for cyclists which are enclosed
user1804599
@R.MartinhoFernandes you can't tell.
there's a different line of argumentation to be chosen for a person to which the concepts at hand are completely abstract, IMHO
I'm not racist, but black people are stupid.
2
must... resist... urge to star
user1804599
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hey!
13:05
that doesn't mean the arguments can be any less valid
user1804599
I'm not stupid!
that just means they might be differently chosen
so @Griwes why don't you lay out any actual arguments pro-making the law the same for every vehicle
16 mins ago, by Griwes
@BartekBanachewicz That I agree with.
Let's start with predictability and not having to remember a dozen of variants of the same law.
@Griwes okey, how would you relate that to agreeing to bus lanes?
that's another variant of law to remember
Anyone find that its hard to train your brain to consider linear search with vectors over look up containers (map,unordered_etc) especially for a smaller number of elements
13:08
Not really.
Also, lol, the thing in Paris is only in the 30km/h zones.
It's the same variant that exists right now
just slightly extended.
user1804599
Awesome: youtube.com/watch?v=9Ph-J9qQbRY undercover cop shoots burglar
its like ... so obtuse to think about but its faster
So many important things left out...
13:08
@Prismatic sample?
See, it replaces the existing one.
Not just adds another.
@Griwes just like allowing bicycles to go on red lights
@Griwes excuse me?
There's a "buses can go on bus lanes" thing.
It's also "ambulances can go on bus lanes", that's an extension to that.
so, to sum up, when a change of law you agree with is made it's "slightly extended", but when you don't it's "having to remember a dozen of variants"
Now similarly add "bicycles can go on bus lanes".
13:09
@Prismatic Especially for small number of elements, I would expect linear search in arrays to be faster than anything.
@BartekBanachewicz Again.
They don't coexist.
There's just one in effect at any given time, w.r.t. who can be on bus lanes.
I meant the bus lanes themselves actually
not bicycles on the lanes
@BartekBanachewicz ...lol
Okay, I'm out.
you misunderstood me.
Because your argumentation is heading towards "you said there can only be one law".
Which is the ultimate way to twist my words vOv
13:10
well, who should decide "how many" laws should be there?
how many is too much?
@AlexM. Just consider having a small set of data of a simple type (small pod maybe) that you need to perform a search operation on frequently. Intuitively its easy to think about stuffing it into a look up container where you use binary search or O(1) for a hash map but its often faster to just do a linear search with a vector since its contiguous in memory
at which point is the law "slightly extended" compared to "too much"?
@BartekBanachewicz You misunderstood me entirely.
Go reread.
binary search implies sorted container
@Griwes Please explain what you meant more clearly then.
13:11
I never said anything about the total amount of laws.
that's the last thing I think of if my container doesn't need to be sorted
@Griwes "not having to remember a dozen of variants of the same law."
you guys need to start another lounge for discussion of transportation related things. electric cars, traffic laws, and other shit
I use vectors for anything at first then refine
I was only speaking about multiple variants of seemingly the same thing.
13:11
@AlexM. But you don't take advantage of cache there
as if I fucking give a flying fuck about cache lmao
@BartekBanachewicz Which is entirely different from "not having to remember a dozen of different laws".
I use vectors for anything at first then refine
@AlexM. Well maps were the go to lookup container before unordered_map came about and they are binary search
We had this discussion like two days ago
13:12
@Griwes how does that make things any different? It's just nitpicking the terminology or perhaps the structure of the formal writing.
@Griwes How?
@BartekBanachewicz lol
@AlexM. lol
@Jefffrey I didn't participate in it because I found it pointless
@Griwes I like how Bartek absolutely focused on the weak argument out of the two you gave.
There's still more of literal pages to remember
13:12
@Prismatic maps are sorted by key
@BartekBanachewicz The thing is, multiple versions of the similar thing = confusing.
@Prismatic When turning right across oncoming traffic, is it better to use tabs or spaces?
@R.MartinhoFernandes wait, are we supposed to attack the strongest arguments of our opponents first as a mandatory rule?
Multiple different things = less confusing.
@Griwes [citation-needed]
13:13
@BartekBanachewicz You dismiss or even accept the weak one and focus on the important one.
@AlexM. I know
@BartekBanachewicz
@R.MartinhoFernandes as a mandatory rule??
I use the data type that makes sense and then refine if needed, this includes optimizations and that cache craziness
@BartekBanachewicz No, as something that makes for better discussion.
13:14
Philosophical Logic (from the Ancient Greek: λογική, logike) is the use and study of valid reasoning. The study of logic features most prominently in the subjects of philosophy, mathematics, and computer science. Logic was studied in several ancient civilizations, including India, China, Persia and Greece. In the West, logic was established as a formal discipline by Aristotle, who gave it a fundamental place in philosophy. The study of logic was part of the classical trivium, which also included grammar and rhetoric. Logic was further extended by Al-Farabi who categorized it into two separate groups...
but for pure dictionary style lookup, map makes sense over vector esp as N increases doesn't it? the fact that its sorted isn't the only reason to use it
is this your response?
if anything, you should respond with "cognitive sciences"
Rhetoric (pronounced /ˈrɛtərɪk/) is the art of discourse, an art that aims to improve the capability of writers or speakers to inform, persuade, or motivate particular audiences in specific situations. As a subject of formal study and a productive civic practice, rhetoric has played a central role in the European tradition. Its best known definition comes from Aristotle, who considers it a counterpart of both logic and politics, and calls it "the faculty of observing in any given case the available means of persuasion." Rhetorics typically provide heuristics for understanding, discovering, and...
@BartekBanachewicz it's easier to distinguish between things that differ much than to distinguish things that differ slightly.
@Prismatic I use maps to map keys to values
13:14
That's logic.
16 secs ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
if anything, you should respond with "cognitive sciences"
you don't really use vectors of key/value pairs do you :P
1 min ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@Griwes [citation-needed]
28 secs ago, by Griwes
@BartekBanachewicz it's easier to distinguish between things that differ much than to distinguish things that differ slightly.
remember about putting the citation in context of behaviour in traffic
user1804599
13:15
I need a hundred quasars and six supermassive black holes.
If it is different for you...
@Griwes should I explain the concept of "citation" to you?
Well, that'd mean you are... different.
Do you also cite yourself in your publications?
Broadly, a citation is a reference to a published or unpublished source (not always the original source). More precisely, a citation is an abbreviated alphanumeric expression embedded in the body of an intellectual work that denotes an entry in the bibliographic references section of the work for the purpose of acknowledging the relevance of the works of others to the topic of discussion at the spot where the citation appears. Generally the combination of both the in-body citation and the bibliographic entry constitutes what is commonly thought of as a citation (whereas bibliographic entries by...
or unpublished source
13:16
for the purpose of acknowledging the relevance of the works of others to the topic of discussion
vOv
so
logic
are you ready to back up that claim or do you backpedal from it?
13:17
@Prismatic if I need to store things without ordering I use a vector, if I need to map keys to values I use map if sorting is required otherwise unordered map, if uniqueness is ok and I need sorting then I don't use vector I use set otherwise unordered set, if uniqueness is not guaranteed I use multiset I don't know if there's an unordered multiset
It is easier to distinguish things that differ in a major way than to distinguish things that differ slightly.
it's not really that hard to pick a data type not sure where your problem stems from
If you don't accept that then we have a major incompatibility here.
@Griwes now you're twisting the original statement
3 mins ago, by Griwes
28 secs ago, by Griwes
@BartekBanachewicz it's easier to distinguish between things that differ much than to distinguish things that differ slightly.
13:18
@BartekBanachewicz He just rephrased his...
5 mins ago, by Griwes
@BartekBanachewicz The thing is, multiple versions of the similar thing = confusing.
he rephrased it changing the meaning entirely
This is the same damn thing.
besides, while we're at it, what I was trying to point out wasn't just the "distinction" to be made
we're talking about application of that law in reality
@BartekBanachewicz Didn't. Plus, even if he had done so, who cares? He failed to convey his idea at first, and now rectified that.
13:19
that doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with being able to distinguish between different variants because of how people think and react
e.g. there are many traffic conventions that arouse despite law being made because of the practical, real life conditions and human reactions and experience
arguing that making an addition to the law presents a greater obstacle in applying it practically needs to take the actual practicality of the part being added into account
The funny thing is, some people seem to have their own conventions.
Like... cyclists.
That's because they use vehicles drastically different to other ones?
It's only natural they develop their own way on behaving on the road.
"Their own" as in "not accepted by anyone else".
That isn't necessarily true.
13:23
...like driving on the walkway when there's a bicycle path.
You're discussing one instance of it.
How can you claim it's not true?
Or running a red light when there's people crossing the street.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I was responding to the broader "there should be no special laws for cyclists" statement
That was not the statement.
@AlexM. why wouldn't you use vector<pair<key,value>> if you wanted to map values to keys
13:24
@Prismatic because there's a container in the library that makes the intent of mapping keys to values clearer already and it's a better choice from all points of view
38 mins ago, by Griwes
Although in principle I am against this kind of bullshit.
choosing the proper container is not optimization it's common sense
what were you against when making that statement?
@AlexM. except thats wrong because its slower in certain cases
28 mins ago, by Griwes
I'm all for making them follow the exact same set of rules as everyone.
13:25
@AlexM. Except efficiency according to Chandler
which was the whole point
He says to avoid it like the plague
@Prismatic I don't think so
That was the statement.
@Griwes is that different from "there should be no special laws for cyclists"?
13:25
@Griwes FWIW You usually have to cater for people crossing the street even on green lights, car or bicycle.
Which might've been one "exact" too strong.
a vector of key value pairs implies a lack of ordering
so unordered_map is the choice
I doubt that a vector of key value pairs is faster than a hash table
for lookup
@AlexM. holy shit
you can't even binary search a vector of key value pairs
this is my exact point
13:26
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sure. But does that mean people should cater for bicycles running the red light? :P
it is faster
Xeo
Xeo
@AlexM. Why not?
if your data set is small enough
@Griwes so "cyclicts should follow the same set of rules as everyone" and "there should be no special laws for cyclists" aren't equivalent?
@Xeo because it's not sorted
Xeo
Xeo
13:26
What if you keep it sorted?
@Griwes Just like how they should cater for cars doing it vOv
@Prismatic so, 3 elements?
Or for cars running stop signs.
@Xeo the hypothesis is that you don't
@BartekBanachewicz Your version of the statement suggests I hate cyclists in a special way.
13:27
@AlexM. where did you get the number 3 from? It also depends on the size of the element
And I hate everyone equally <3
@Prismatic you didn't come with any numbers either so I just spawned one
@Griwes apart from emotional load, they are equivalent, though?
user1804599
Hold a rubber band tightly at its two ends. Next, place an AAA between the strands in the middle. (This is easier for people with three arms.)
user1804599
lol
13:28
I wouldn't be surprised if it was faster to do a linear search in a vector of say 100 elements as opposed to an std::map or std::unordered_map of the same number of elements.
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, but that doesn't matter, since you were (sub?)consciously using the emotional load there.
I don't know man I don't choose my containers with the assumption that the input will always be tiny or sth shrug
@Griwes it's all in the small victories vOv
@Griwes I actually wasn't, anyway, because I was battling the unloaded statement, not the emotional load per se.
aaaa Spotify readded tray minimisation
Amazing
And in fact it's usually easier to avoid harming pedestrians when going straight than when turning right, because the ones in front of you can be spotted from afar.
13:29
that's why I asked about trucks' speed limits and bus lanes
I'll be sure to let you know the first time not using a vector of key value pairs on tiny inputs caused problems for me
It's not about being the bottleneck of the application
then there's no reason to stress it
use the data type that makes it clear what you're doing so you don't spend extra effort reading the code
Who's stressing it? @Prismatic was simply surprised by it.
@Griwes anyway, going with this style of thinking we go back to medieval USA and them not allowing motorcyclists in between cars stuck in traffic.
because motorcycles should abide the same laws as cars, which means no vehicles passing each other on the same lane
13:32
Slippery slope invoked!
@Jefffrey it looked like he thought it was some kind of amazing way to optimize your apps and increase their speed
robot, for fucks sake
might have misunderstood
he mentioned explicitely that he is against traffic regulations specialized for different vehicles
13:32
@BartekBanachewicz I'm not the one making shitty arguments.
you're attacking mine for the wrong reasons
at least this time in particular.
so far IME the only relevant kind of optimization occurred from reducing overall complexity either by changing my algorithms or switching to an appropriate container
or both
your comments to my arguments drag the discussion into idiotic debates about wording instead of focusing on matter at hand
IOW, you're not helping
cyclicts should follow the same set of rules as everyone
there should be no special laws for cyclists
Although in principle I am against this kind of bullshit.
however you put it it's clear what was meant
+ claims about law getting unnecessary variants
thus I don't think extending it to show how it would impact motorcycles was a stretch at all
Aaaaaand nowhere in there I said I consider all the current laws necessary. :P
anyway I'm tired
Worse: variants with "empty" state
13:36
@BartekBanachewicz Regardless, it makes your mention of something different either a completely irrelevant addition, or a tacit agreement with his position.
@R.MartinhoFernandes We can meet next week. I am gonna be really busy too, as my father is gonna get an operation. I hope we will find some time
This tropico soundtrack is nice
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's not completely irrelevant. Again, what I was trying to tackle was worthiness of per-vehicle-type additions.
I might get a phone number today
nooooo. Who's the lady of dubious fortuity?
13:37
either way, why the hell are you the one to decide whether it was relevant or not?
right now, mine is from my home country with roaming
I guess he meant his own number
LRiO vs Bartek is cancelled. Get ready for Bartek vs robot, 21:15 today only on LoungeTV
13:39
rawr
anyway I think it would be fun to rehash this discussion once @Griwes gets to ride a bicycle in a city for a while
@Columbo I think robot's dad would kick bartek's dad's ass any day
I had a feeling this was coming.
...again
:D
@AlexM. Why's that
@AlexM. what
@Griwes sigh
if denial makes you feel better, go for it
that's what faith is about, isn't it
13:41
So, you only care about him changing his position, not about the merit of his arguments?
@Columbo you know like
"my dad can kick your dad's ass"
(Rhetorical question)
in kids arguments
no?
@R.MartinhoFernandes I've lost the way to evaluate the merit once you've decided to derail the conversation, so fuck off.
The thing with @BartekBanachewicz
13:41
@BartekBanachewicz lol
is that his dad will have an even greater nose
and that what was annoyed me, incidentally, not the discussion
I have a pretty big nose too
@BartekBanachewicz Btw., how is your job search going
13:42
@Columbo I found a job a while ago. Starting 1st Sept.
@BartekBanachewicz Nice. Congrats! :)
@BartekBanachewicz woot grats
is it the web guys?
@AlexM. :∀
with the optimizations?
13:43
@Griwes Wait, I did that first!
I think bigger than average noses are nice
@AlexM. I gonna write Javascript
especially on girls
Kids these days.
my cousin has the best nose because she's in the family
13:44
@BartekBanachewicz Oh well, if pointing out your poor argumentation derails the conversation, maybe I should let it roll down the poor argumentation direction.
@BartekBanachewicz :O
Maybe it will go back to the quote-reply-to-quote thing it was a few minutes earlier.
bartek joins js room confirmed
@R.MartinhoFernandes there's a lot in how you do the pointing. The way you did it was analogous to being a total jerk.
FYI.
with a message like
13:45
@AlexM. I've been semi active there for the last year or so
alert("I'm gonna go to a real chatroom now cya later losers");
C++ isn't a real language
user1804599
You don't even know whether C++ exists or not.
@BartekBanachewicz tbh, sometimes the things you can see with templates do look like something out of a fantasy universe
13:46
@AlexM. and then you realize they have little practical use because of the complication
like that TMP compile time tetris
@AlexM. yeah I thought it was "cool" for a while as well
It's not cool, it's masochism
I like the less complicated parts tho
Like really, I would recommend seeing a doctor for that
13:47
@R.MartinhoFernandes I haven't missed it. proof
I can easily simplify things with type traits and so on, but I don't feel like going any further anymore
@BartekBanachewicz You kept talking like the exact was there.
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's the point. It being there doesn't change a thing. I removed it and the sentence still stood up.
You took that perceived absolute position and extrapolated to the motorcycle thing.
then what Griwes should do would be backing out of the perceived absolute position explicitely
13:48
@BartekBanachewicz Him mentioning 'exact' was too much means it's not exact.
@BartekBanachewicz He did, by acknowledging 'exact' was too strong.
@R.MartinhoFernandes in a way, I was asking for a more definitive expression of what the removal of "exact" was about
either way, we didn't get there because you had to be "humorously" "helpful"
@BartekBanachewicz You failed to do that, since you went on to simply extrapolate from it.
@R.MartinhoFernandes pointing out the extrapolation was too much was his job, not yours.
How does that change anything?
you've turned my carefully crafted trap into a way to ridicule me
13:50
That's the weirdest ad hominem argument I've heard.
"He didn't say it, so it's not ok"?
ITT Griwes is employed by Bartek
@R.MartinhoFernandes it was him who I was arguing with, not you. How about next time you argue with anyone I interrupt with something like you said and we'll see how it goes from there? You don't even need to back anything like that up. It's toxic. It destroys the discussion and even if completely unbased leaves the attacked person to deal with both the actual argument and the unfair accusation.
user1804599
I love ST.
user1804599
Clear imperative code. <3
@BartekBanachewicz Pointing flaws in reasoning is toxic? :(
13:52
I well knew that my example might have lied outside what he meant. That doesn't mean I can't use it to prevent a bit different PoV and relate to it.
@BartekBanachewicz For the record, discussions on a public forum like this chatroom are open to everyone in said forum. It's not "interruption", it's "participation".
@R.MartinhoFernandes ever heard about "if you don't know how to join a dicussion, say it's probably orthogonal"?
the idea is that if you're right, you gain a position, and if you're wrong you can easily get out of it
FWIW, instead of crafting 'traps' you could have simply asked "if it's not the exact same, what rules are ok to differ, then?"
Rep?
13:55
@R.MartinhoFernandes I have to agree with that one at least :|
but that makes discussions boring
user1804599
TRAPS
@rightfold in order to update the roots, I should store pointers to them, rather than the actual objects themselves (so std::unordered_set<GCObject**> s and void add_root(GCObject*& obj) { s.insert(&obj); }), no?
user1804599
It's a trap!
@R.MartinhoFernandes besides, I did
user1804599
@orlp you can't store the objects themselves since you don't know their sizes.
user1804599
13:56
Also, make a smart pointer which manages enrooting and derooting for you.
45 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
at which point is the law "slightly extended" compared to "too much"?
user1804599
And it must be a multiset, not a set.
@rightfold why?
user1804599
Because if you enroot the same object twice you also want to have to deroot it twice.
@BartekBanachewicz That unfortunately was before, and during a point when both of you were claiming to have been misunderstood.
13:57
sounds like rooting the same object twice is a mistake, but fair enough
user1804599
No.
user1804599
It can be on the call stack twice.
user1804599
It can be in a global twice.
user1804599
And so on.
Ell
Ell
I invented a salad
13:58
47 mins ago, by Griwes
@BartekBanachewicz You misunderstood me entirely.
48 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
you misunderstood me.
Sorta funny in a way.
user1804599
But you really need a smart pointer if you want to use the pointers from C++.
@R.MartinhoFernandes "unfortunately"?
user1804599
And a mechanism to make sure that the objects aren't moved if they are used by C++ (the CLI calls this "pinning").

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