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19:01
@FilipRoséen-refp Is getting rid of all the fugly arrows not enough? >.>
in JavaScript, 30 secs ago, by Filip Roséen - refp
could you guys ease the hell up with the flagging bullshit?
@gha.st I don't see your point.
@FilipRoséen-refp it's between the >s
ba dum tsch
@FilipRoséen-refp Exactly, you only see arrows!
@Jefffrey I guess. I mean, not necessarily a full-fledged operator . overload, something less would be enough. Like, the compiler would implicitly call a T& conversion operator when operator . is used on a reference-like type, or something like that
@gha.st I'll just leave you to whatever you are doing.
@AndyProwl what is a "reference-like" type?
19:02
is gha.st cicada?
@AndyProwl huh?
@FilipRoséen-refp Something that behaves like a reference, but adds some custom logic. Like an iterator behaves like a pointer, but adds custom logic
@AndyProwl and.. what would the custom added logic be like for a "reference-like" type?
@gha.st Get rid of the arrows: lolz->x(); ---> auto& lmao = *lolz; lmao.x();
@FilipRoséen-refp See std::reference_wrapper and its assignment operator
19:05
@milleniumbug I have no idea why you want me to take a look at that.. but I'm surprised you think I need to.
Well, the only reason we need arrows at all is to allow pointer-like types.
once again Lounge<C++> turned into ##c++ @ freenode, but I am really interested in what @AndyProwl is thinking of.
@FilipRoséen-refp It could be returning an lvalue reference to another object, so everything which is done on the reference-like object is actually done on the wrapped object
@AndyProwl I don't see the need for such type, nor do I see how this would make it easier to reason about programs written in C++
I honestly don't see what such thing would give us, nor do I see what overloading operator. would accomplish (given the semantics associated with operator.)
are bigints really just arrays of digits?
19:10
@FilipRoséen-refp It would give us the same kind of benefits that overloading operator -> does. Having UDTs behave as pointers is useful. I'd like to have UDTs that behave as references too
I thought they'd be a huge complicated mess
@JerryCoffin Sure, but in both cases, you're leading exclusively with tabs.
I mean, I've ran into loads of people claiming that they wish that operator. could be overloaded, but when asked for a well-defined reason I've yet to come across any good response. Also, just for the record, a.b basically says "access member b of the object directly associated with a" - making it possible to modify operator. as with operator-> doesn't make sense, since the latter is justifiable as "access the member b that belongs to the object referred to by a"
(ie. pointer semantics)
@AlexM. That's what regular ints are too- just an array of binary digits.
@AndyProwl but operator. and operator-> are semantically vastly different
19:11
@AlexM. It depends on what you wish to accomplish. In some cases they are kept in different forms (e.g. by keeping their residues modulo several coprimes)
@FilipRoséen-refp It's usually for more effective proxies in certain situations- say, container indexing.
@Puppy could you write a short example of what you mean? (you know I'm going to bash on it)
> Mocks are C++ of testing
:DDD
I think this sentence shows beautifully what's wrong with both. :D
what I mean is, if you consider something like std::map, then it would be nice if operator[] did not have to always default-construct for nonexistent keys, so you could turn map[key] = val; into map.insert(key, val); effectively (if key is nonexistent).
19:14
@Griwes I think that sentence fails to comprehend that both have their place and aren't cure alls
you can make a proxy that works this way but not if you also want map[key].f(); to work as you'd expect because the proxy can't imitate the real interface of the object.
user3010322
@FilipRoséen-refp My biggest problem with defining a unique class that can take either an actual pointer member or a regular data structure and gives it the semantics of a unique pointer. When I attempt to access a regular UDT stored in unique with ->, I get an error saying that the type used with -> must be a pointer type, meaning I have to add a conditional base to perform addressof on the thing if it's not a pointer before returning it.
Mocks are terrible. C++ is terrible. Mocks have their uses. C++ has its uses.
I think the sentence doesn't actually fail to notice this.
I use mocks
how else would I simulate external dependencies
especially server interaction
@Puppy so what would map[key].f() do if there's no such value in the map, throw an exception? this goes against everything that's currently in the language
user3010322
19:15
Granted, it's not REALLY a problem: I can define the conditional base class/std::conditonal_t and do that, but it doesn't make it any less annoying.
@FilipRoséen-refp For a simple example, you could have a function template that works on both objects of type T and objects of type reference_wrapper<T> without having to write separate overloads that call .get() etc.
@FilipRoséen-refp Throwing is fairly reasonable really, but you could also choose to default-construct.
@ThePhD erhm, you could do it without a conditional base.. but if what you are really getting at is the pain of writing the additional logic, I'm not too sad about that.
Also my impression is that overloading operator . would be sufficient, but not necessary so no, I'm not asking for the ability to overload operator .. There were actually implementations of that, Sebastian Redl's comes to mind, but it was quite ugly
what I really want is an object that's mostly a T& but I want to be able to handle some operations without actually producing a T&.
19:17
@AndyProwl but.. why? why not tell the caller that "if you want to work on the real type, pass the real type"?
@FilipRoséen-refp Say I have a template<typename T> void foo(T x) { x.bar(); }. The user may want to just call it with foo(ref(obj)), but it cannot.
@Puppy that actually makes sense... but is very dangerous, keying into the map to a value you don't intend to create would automatically emplace a value. It would also make it impossible to make operator[] noexcept
@AndyProwl no, and I see that as a bloody good thing
@Mgetz operator[] itself would always be noexcept. It's the operations on the proxy that might or might not be noexcept.
@FilipRoséen-refp We see it differently
19:20
Here is a stupid question: If SSD's are replacements for Hard Drives (which are meant to store things), then why do SSD's increase the speed of the computer?
no.
@DemCodeLines uh, what are you asking
@DemCodeLines wat
@Puppy fair enough, but it seems counter intuitive from a use standpoint
user3010322
@DemCodeLines Obviously, magic.
19:21
@AndyProwl and what additional logic would ref(obj) have if you get what you want?
@gha.st oh so there are clever tricks to do it
@FilipRoséen-refp There's also some discussion of how reference types could be useful for dealing with proxies here, in case you're interested
@melak47 why do SSD's improve a computer's boot time when much of the initial process is loading and unloading stuff into the ram (and not the SSD itself)?
Apparently Sean Parent came up with such an idea, but didn't write a formal proposal
@DemCodeLines hmm...LOADING...I wonder :p
19:21
@DemCodeLines wat
@DemCodeLines the CPU doesn't have to wait for the disk to send shit
@DemCodeLines there is a time cost with physical movement
SSDs are faster
@Mgetz Not really. map[key] already inserts if the key doesn't exist. All we're doing is changing the semantics from "Default-construct, then assign" to a proper construction.
@AndyProwl I've read that series, and I crinched multiple times
19:22
6 mins ago, by Andy Prowl
@FilipRoséen-refp For a simple example, you could have a function template that works on both objects of type T and objects of type reference_wrapper<T> without having to write separate overloads that call .get() etc.
@DemCodeLines SSD reads are faster, so the performance of loading stuff (which is IO bound, DUH!) is better.
@Puppy so would map[key]{...} be valid?
If you don't understand why SSDs make a computer faster, you have never searched the whole house for your keys.
6
@AndyProwl so what are you really after, an.. intrinsic reference, perhaps?
OS X loads up fast
19:22
why is it fast, that's what I want to know. If I have a choice to upgrade a computer's RAM (which is currently 3GB) or install a SSD instead of HDD, which route should I go?
@Mgetz No.
even on hard drives
@gha.st hahaha
it would still have to be a real expression on the other side.
@DemCodeLines ...both.
19:23
there was a power outage today at work, I was able to get the mac running in ~1 min, and it even loaded up the programs that were open at the moment of the outage
@FilipRoséen-refp Types that can behave like references do. The existence of reference_wrapper itself shows that UDTs behaving as references are useful. They're just not entirely behaving like references today.
Windows took ~5 min to fully load, and nothing was reopened
I wish they did
3GiB is like... no RAM.
@AndyProwl behaves like references do, but without any added functionality?
19:23
Fuck SSD, more RAM is always the answer
in JavaScript, 3 mins ago, by rlemon
I think they call it the Lounge because there is often reasons to sit back and grab a bag of popcorn
@FilipRoséen-refp They break assignment.
I currently have a YouCompleteMe daemon process at 1GiB and counting, lol.
Also which idiot flagged that
Another at .25GiB.
19:24
@LucDanton so that's the additional logic, a transparent reference-type that doesn't handle assignments?
2 mins ago, by Andy Prowl
6 mins ago, by Andy Prowl
@FilipRoséen-refp For a simple example, you could have a function template that works on both objects of type T and objects of type reference_wrapper<T> without having to write separate overloads that call .get() etc.
Boot times are quite irrelevant
Some 2+GiB of Chromium. So there, no RAM left.
@CatPlusPlus Apparently it's this guy, which is also running for moderator.
There is additional functionality
19:24
@AndyProwl you have not answered my question
my friend thinks I need to upgrade the RAM. I think I need to upgrade the HDD to SSD.
@AndyProwl so you want to pass an intrinsic reference type?
yes you want to upgrade the HDD to SSD
@DemCodeLines I'd do both (heck, I did both) - but I'd do RAM first if I had to choose.
Not if you only want to improve boot times
19:25
@FilipRoséen-refp Your question is "what would it bring to the table?" My answer was "For a simple example, bla bla"
Because seriously, 3GiB is like... no RAM.
Which is a dumb non-goal
Linux VM @ 8 gigs. Leaves negative 5 gigs. Darn.
yeah only getting SSDs for boot time is kinda silly
@FilipRoséen-refp I haven’t made my mind up yet. (Which means I also don’t assign much in some cases.)
19:25
@AndyProwl so what's wrong with having an intrinsic reference instead of that magic reference-wrapper you are talking about?
If you have less than 16GB of RAM, you have no RAM
@CatPlusPlus Nah. 12GiB is mostly OK.
You only need SSD if you're doing a lot of I/O-heavy work and you know it'll make a difference
@FilipRoséen-refp What's an intrinsic reference?
19:26
Otherwise, cost inefficient
boot times is not the question. I have 2 machines that I'm concerned about. One is a Windows desktop with 8.1, has 3GB ram. The other MBP2009 that has Intel Core Duo and 2GB RAM
Maybe a small one for cache, or a hybrid drive
@FilipRoséen-refp They break assignment. It’s seriously wrong.
@FilipRoséen-refp What happens when you pass a reference to a function template that takes by value?
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, 5 mins ago, by Jason C
@SterlingArcher Oh god, I imagine the C++ room is a nightmare.
19:26
@DemCodeLines Move all the RAM to a single machine, because neither of those has RAM.
Well, I need to upgrade both
RAAAAAM.
Because you have no RAM.
That's why I needed to know if I should upgrade the RAM first or the HDD-to-SSD first.
Download it
@Griwes Not enough
19:27
@DemCodeLines RAM. How many times to repeat?
SSD - because it will increase the speed of your swap space!
SSD is not a replacement for HDD in general anyway
This may help in calculating your grade: return 0Neil Kirk 48 secs ago
5
Hahahahaha xD
@CatPlusPlus I can run multiple YCM sessions and my browser opened with a hellish amount of tabs at the same time => good enough.
19:28
@AndyProwl we could talk about how I consider passing-by-value vs passing-by-reference as a promise made by the maintainer of a function, and that if something is passed-by-value the maintainer of such function says that "you cannot inspect the, perhaps valid but weird, state I'll leave the parameter in"
Sure I do plan to upgrade this, but still - it works.
@FilipRoséen-refp So you never passed a std::ref(x) to a function template that takes by value?
@CatPlusPlus What's missing?
Cost per GB
@AndyProwl of course I have
user3010322
19:29
@AndyProwl I had to implement an unwrap_unref function just so I could crush down the difference between a pointer and a std::reference_wrapper and a T&.
user3010322
It's never fun in generic code...
@CatPlusPlus Yeah, but we are getting there.
energy-full:         66,22 Wh
energy-full-design:  72,6 Wh
capacity:            91,2121%
@AndyProwl your next question should be "when do you do that?", which I'd answer with a "when the specification clearly says how it will handle my argument"
@FilipRoséen-refp So you must see why having an object that pretends to be a reference is a useful thing. Right now, reference_wrapper can only pretend to be half a reference. Everything works as long as you use conversion operator or assignment, but breaks when you do member access. I'm just saying it would be nice if it was possible for it to behave like a reference entirely.
I seem to be eating my battery.
19:31
@Griwes Only because of floods in Thailand
@ThePhD Yes, that's pretty much the hassle I had in mind
@Griwes heard they're great with pickles
@AlexM. :D
@ThePhD with what @AndyProwl propose you'd have to write additional code to see if it's one of these "magic references"
user3010322
@AndyProwl I would think that just allowing reference to be real things might fix the problem, but that breaks the concept of what a reference really is.
user3010322
19:32
E.g. allowing std::vector<T&>.
I put some effort in in Wide to permit that
@FilipRoséen-refp No, you wouldn't
@AndyProwl yes, you would
@AndyProwl std::vector<magic_ref<T>>, how would that work?
user3010322
@Puppy Bless your soul.
An example where std::reference_wrapper arises is with tuples. You can’t replace them with T&.
19:33
@AndyProwl maybe std::swap (a, b) where a and b are magic-references, what would be the result?
@AlexM. don't forget windows vista/7 aren't that old. Even linux would boot in ~2 minutes on my hdds. That's dropped to 6-12s with SSDs and OSes paying a lot more attention to startup bottlenecks
user3010322
std::vector<T&> not working has been a thorn in my side since forever.
@FilipRoséen-refp How does reference_wrapper work with that?
@ThePhD Rvalue references are fairly problematic, though.
@ThePhD but you don't see why that doesn't work?
user3010322
19:34
@Puppy I wouldn't mind disallowing std::vector<T&&>.
I would.
user3010322
Hm.
@AndyProwl and now, think about your magic-reference wrapper in contexts where it is working together with something which isn't. what would be the result?
@LucDanton bind, too
user3010322
Well. If just using && is the way of signaling a type is move-only (e.g., making it unique<T>), then I could see the use of it.
19:35
a good part of my plans w.r.t. perfect forwarding and stuff like that would basically require that lvalue and rvalue refs behave the same.
making lvalue refs to references works OK, but rvalue references to references is a lot more problematic.
@FilipRoséen-refp Not sure what you mean. I'm saying there are use cases for it.
@AndyProwl I'm saying that it would get you into more trouble than you think
@AndyProwl but I'd be happy to read a proposal if you write such
@FilipRoséen-refp An added functionality is assignment.
are you getting it yet?
@LucDanton reread the transcript, or read it if you haven't
@FilipRoséen-refp No, I'm not going to write a proposal. Of course there will be more trouble than I think, such a feature would have massive interaction with many other features of the language. I'm just saying it would be nice to have them - not saying it's actually feasible to have them.
19:39
@FilipRoséen-refp You’ve never elaborated on anything at all.
@LucDanton ok
@AndyProwl I'm talking about the feasibility of such feature, just "nice" isn't working for me - and maybe that's what is causing this discussion in the first place; we are coming from different grounds on this
@LucDanton std::swap (a, b) where a is a magic-ref and b isn't, what is the result?
I don’t know. What magic ref?
@LucDanton reread the transcript.
@FilipRoséen-refp I am not Andy Prowl.
I am a different person.
I am not speaking in his capacity.
@LucDanton I know you are, but you seem to have followed along during the discussion (since you keep injecting your thoughts into it, referring to stuff that is part of that very discussion)
19:43
@FilipRoséen-refp You weren't talking about the feasibility when you started bashing my very vague wish. You were just claiming it would be useless, add no functionality, etc. I showed there would be use cases. Only then you switched to listing all the possible contexts in which it could create troubles.
@FilipRoséen-refp I’ve brought a retort to one of your point. You cannot ask me to defend Andy’s points. Please, isn’t that a fair request of me?
@AndyProwl I always talk about feasibility; have you not seen me around here?
@LucDanton and I'm asking you to defend yours; you that the added functionality is assignment, could you elaborate on that?
welp
back to work tomorrow
@FilipRoséen-refp The first reactions of yours were not "this would not be feasible", but "this would not be useful". You can read the transcript if you don't believe me
@FilipRoséen-refp template<typename T> struct foo { T value; }; loses assignment for T = U&. It doesn’t with std::reference_wrapper<U>.
19:45
@AndyProwl it wouldn't be useful since it would break a lot of things
@LucDanton are you sure you know what we were talking about?
@LucDanton we are not talking about std::reference_wrapper in the sense that you are (implying that you are talking about it)
Xeo
Xeo
@Puppy nishishi vacation
And I’m more talking about T& than I am std::reference_wrapper.
@FilipRoséen-refp In what sense am I talking about it?
@FilipRoséen-refp Of course my assumption, when formulating that vague, playful wish, was to assume that it would be introduced into the language without breaking a lot of things. I certainly don't like breaking a lot of things. It doesn't mean it would be easy, it doesn't mean it would be feasible, it just means it would be nice to have for certain use cases.
19:47
@LucDanton alright, let us get back to it then: You see the usability for a type that acts like todays T& , but that does what on assignment?
@FilipRoséen-refp Rebinding/retargeting.
oh man I've missed some nice betting chances :(
there's this team that nobody expects to win (always odds between 10%-20%) that's now steamrolling over the best teams
T* without nullptr, essentially. Which is why I brought up std::reference_wrapper.
19:48
it happened yesterday and it happened today
@AndyProwl and my point, as it has always been, is that such a feature can't be introduced into the language without breaking things, causing it to be far from usable, and therefore unfeasible.
@LucDanton std::swap (a, b) where a is your rebinding reference type and b is an object of type which you rebinding reference is referring to, what would be the result?
@FilipRoséen-refp I doubt you can be certain about that without a deeper investigation. You can have doubts, granted. Anyway I'm getting out of this conversation, it's becoming unpleasant and it's not the first time to be honest
@FilipRoséen-refp I think you saw too far into what Andy said. I don’t think he necessarily meant a literal operator. when he mentioned the words.
@FilipRoséen-refp Same as auto tmp = a; a = b; b = tmp;.
33 mins ago, by Andy Prowl
Also my impression is that overloading operator . would be sufficient, but not necessary so no, I'm not asking for the ability to overload operator .. There were actually implementations of that, Sebastian Redl's comes to mind, but it was quite ugly
@AndyProwl that's alright, and sure - deeper investigation is always necessary but I feel very strongly that this is the case, having had this exact discussion in the past.
19:51
The 'such a feature' you are talking about is a straw feature no one actually brought up in the discussion. We were each talking about the rough patches we’ve hit.
That’s it really.
Ah. Appeal to discussion fatigue
@LucDanton so that would mean that both a and b would end up having the same value? or that template argument deduction would fail? or would you introduce additional specializations to deal with this issue?
@FilipRoséen-refp if your first reaction had been "eh, it's hardly doable because it would have massive interactions with other parts of the language" I would have simply agreed. Your reaction was "meh it's useless", which I did not agree with.
@FilipRoséen-refp No and no and no.
@AndyProwl Which is the real shame.
45 mins ago, by Filip Roséen - refp
@AndyProwl I don't see the need for such type, nor do I see how this would make it easier to reason about programs written in C++
I'm not sure where you find the "meh it's useless" message that I apparently sent, but it's not in my transcript.
@LucDanton so, what would be the result?
19:54
Have a cigarette break
@FilipRoséen-refp Isn't something you don't see the need for useless?
@sehe I will, in a minute.
@FilipRoséen-refp They swap targets. (Not meaning, of course, that the targets are subject to an std::swap.)
"meh it's useless" is not a substring of your message, but it's hardly not the meaning of it
@AndyProwl I can see how you can interpret it that way, but it is not what I tried to express
nor how I'd read such message coming from someone else
19:55
@FilipRoséen-refp I don't see how else I could have interpreted it
@LucDanton you didn't read my question carefully enough.
@FilipRoséen-refp What if I did and ignored your pussyfooting purposefully?
What's the difference between "I don't see the need" and "I think it's useless"?
it's like saying that I don't see the need for an atomic bomb exploding in my kitchen if what I really want is to get rid of the dishes
sure, it would obviously solve the "problem" I have - but everything else will break, badly.
@FilipRoséen-refp What if I was making a bigger riddle than your own??!!! Will we ever figure out what any of us is talking about? Who knows?
^this is no way to conduct a discussion, and this is what you are doing
19:58
@LucDanton it wasn't a riddle, I simply asked what the following would end up doing -> magic_ref<T> a = ...; T b; std::swap (a, b);?
Right and I answered that. By giving you the definition of the standard swap since you are being a dipshit.
@LucDanton but b doesn't have a target, so I can't see how your answer is applicable
@LucDanton try to swap two objects of different types, please.
@FilipRoséen-refp Right.
@LucDanton so, once again; what would the result be?
@FilipRoséen-refp Ok, perhaps I know how to interpret that part now, but the second part and the messages that followed still make me think that your reaction was more along the lines of "it's useless" than along the lines of "it's not feasible".
Which would be a legitimate reaction, just not one I agree with
20:01
Oh my bad, the actual definition is handwavy with 'exchanges the value'. I shouldn’t have brought up the auto tmp = a; stuff, that’s more folklore.
@AndyProwl if so, I apologize for not expressing myself in a better manner - but I don't see the need for something that will break a lot of other things, that's what I meant and how I approached the topic
@FilipRoséen-refp No overload found.
OK, it's a nice night for doing a design review of a root cause analysis training course. Sadly, it will only take a couple hours:(
@LucDanton now apply the same logic to a fictive program written in C++, what added functionality would the added magic_ref have?
@FilipRoséen-refp What fiction?
Weren’t we using C++ before?
20:03
@LucDanton "fictive" as in "just some program written"
The added functionality would be assignment.
For instance, the foo above would not have a deleted assign op.
@FilipRoséen-refp I don't know. If modules were to break a lot of things I would still deem them useful and arguably see the need for them.
@LucDanton alright, we aren't getting anywhere so I give up - either I lack the wording to express what I mean, or you don't understand it.. in either case, this is a lost cause (for both me and you)
The point is what "break a lot of things" mean, too
Perhaps 'added functionality' needs a reference? Added compared to what?
20:05
@AndyProwl makes it harder to reason about a certain program
@LucDanton something that isn't currently in the language, what else would that "added functionality" mean?
@FilipRoséen-refp What’s infuriating is that what I described is a reality in today’s C++ with today’s rules in my day-to-day programming.
@FilipRoséen-refp It's not like you have to use them. Templates make it harder to reason about a certain program too
I have to be extra careful with reference types breaking my assignment. I have to be careful if I sprinkle std::reference_wrapper (or any equivalent) because it takes some precautions / it’s not always a good fit.
@FilipRoséen-refp Well, today references delete the assignment operator. Perhaps tomorrow there will be an alternative that doesn’t and is nice.
@AndyProwl I don't see the need for a feature that doesn't play well with the current semantics of the language, maybe that's a way to put it. /cc @LucDanton
@FilipRoséen-refp Then why ceaselessly question 'what is the added functionality', since that’s clearly not what you are after?
The added functionality is assignment. Do you get it now?
20:08
@LucDanton that is exactly what I'm after.
@LucDanton and I still see it as unfeasible. Do you get it now?
Yes, it can be infeasible. It can be a dream. I have no problem with that.
@LucDanton then you are talking to the wrong guy
If primo says 'I want my cake and eat it, too', and secundo raises the question 'but will it be tasty?', then 'yes' is more than adequate an answer.
(I shouldn’t say that. This will end in a strawman.)
@FilipRoséen-refp Do you see what’s so disruptive with your line of questioning that’s so tangential to the actual things you care about?
@FilipRoséen-refp So you never had dreams or wished for things that were not actually reachable or feasible?
@LucDanton nope, but I guess you know that by now
20:12
@FilipRoséen-refp No. The question was genuine. Do you mean something with 'by now'?
@AndyProwl sure, but then I'm prepared to defend them as "if this was to happen, this would be the consequences" - if I'm not too happy about the consequences I wouldn't see it as something that I'd like
@LucDanton "by now" as in "after reading what I have written"
@FilipRoséen-refp That’s more than fair.
@FilipRoséen-refp Then, again and truthfully, no. I’m still under the shock and taken aback as to how hard this was to get through.
@LucDanton if you imply that we are in some sort of agreement, we are not (from my point of view). ;-)
I suppose I’m not really sure where we ended up. I’m really more concerned that the process doesn’t repeat.
@LucDanton we ended up at the well-known cross-road where we agree to disagree, at least that is what I hope we're at.
20:17
@FilipRoséen-refp How about being super-rich having as a bad consequence the one of having to fear for your property, or even your safety? Is it so illegitimate to dream of achieving the former, but without the latter?
There is, AFAICT, nothing to agree or disagree on.
@AndyProwl if you dream about something, that gives you something you'd rather not have, you shouldn't dream about that something.
@FilipRoséen-refp What if it doesn't give you only something you'd rather not have?
@AndyProwl then I expect such dreamer to defend that negative impacts of such dream, and land at the conclusion that it would still be feasible/desirable.
@FilipRoséen-refp That’s weird.
20:20
I want X, which also gives me Y and Z, but I want it without Y and Z - then you don't want X.
@FilipRoséen-refp That doesn’t jive with how I use the word 'want'.
@LucDanton I'm expressing my opinions, not yours. ;-)
anyhow, time to roll another smoke and do some digging in the Standard (for unrelated reasons)
@FilipRoséen-refp I suppose. What do you (personally) say to someone that says they want X but not Y and Z?
@LucDanton That they don't want X, I guess
@LucDanton that they don't want X, but something else that would get them the part of X they'd want
@AndyProwl indeed
20:23
@FilipRoséen-refp But that want is not your opinion! This is what doesn’t jive with how I use the word 'want'.
(Can I trust chat search if it has 0 results for "you don't want"? I don’t think so.)
@LucDanton are we getting into the discussion of whether two individuals can truly understand each other, having the inherit problem of words being inert and that the meaning of each word is highly (infinitely) subjective?
@FilipRoséen-refp Not any two individuals, I suppose just us two. And yes!
@LucDanton then this discussion is rather moot
ITT frep knowing telling people that they don't want what they want
20:26
I want to know what the phrase 'I want to eat my cake and have it, too' means to you :)
@LucDanton it means that someone wants the impossible (if the meaning of the phrase is to have the cake in it's current state, while still eating it)
I can think of a lot of impossible things I would want
and you're not going to convince me I don't want them
@AndyProwl I never said that
@FilipRoséen-refp whoosh
@FilipRoséen-refp for quite a while
@FilipRoséen-refp Ah, but you explain 'want' with 'want'. Which is the real bit I’m curious about. (Yes, that is the gist of the phrase.)
20:29
@LucDanton "want" as "I prefer it being this way instead of the way it is"
@sehe indeed
@FilipRoséen-refp Boo! That’s way to dry. Well, if my intensity ever made it across to your earlier I hope you can see how much I can want. Preferring is not enough!
And I’m sorry I called you names.
7 mins ago, by Filip Roséen - refp
@AndyProwl indeed
I wonder how hard it would be to loose the tie between converting constructors and conversion functions (operator T)
"To want is to long for". Isn’t that a quote or nearly? I can’t find a hit on Google.
@LucDanton fly to stockholm, get yourself to my apartment, and we can discuss this all night.
@AndyProwl haha, I was expecting that; I never said that I'll convince anyone that they don't want it, all I said was that I consider it to be something that they don't really want.
20:31
@LucDanton I liked it (the cake as well. It was moist. And warm.)
anyhow, I'm off - peace out folks!
56 secs ago, by Filip Roséen - refp
@AndyProwl haha, I was expecting that; I never said that I'll convince anyone that they don't want it, all I said was that I consider it to be something that they don't really want.
@FilipRoséen-refp Do you think I wouldn't really want to, for instance, bring my grandpa back to life? :) How feasible is that?
I’m quoting it because I’m also liking it.
@MartinJames wait what. You review the design of a training course?
@FilipRoséen-refp that's a syndrome
20:38
@sehe Stockholm syndrome?
:D
@FilipRoséen-refp @_@
like tony with thePhd?
Hi everyone!
I feel pretty much relieved, that the display repair for my daughter's smartphone is charging _only_ 40,-EUR.
There have been unsure advices, how to root the phone, and backup the installed App's data. But all pretty vague, complicated, and unsure to work for transferring app data to another android based phone without having done a backup _a priori_.
I'm happy that the repair is far less than I was afraid of (150,- - 200,- EUR), and I'll advice her how to do backups for her App data in future.
also might act dumb these a few days because of lacking of sleep
But. You survived the trip.
Again.
20:43
@R.MartinhoFernandes How'd that go?
Because statically typed languages explicitly define types, run time is much faster than languages using type inference like Python. — Malik Brahimi 3 mins ago
TIL python has type inference
@CatPlusPlus Did onion and garlic actually help against the cold?
@sehe you sound ... not so disappointed ...
garlic & onion, cat been infected by a vampire?
Do onions help against vampires?
Onions and garlic is delicious.
20:48
@fredoverflow doesn't seem like it
my diavola pizzas all have onions
@fredoverflow Downvotes do, however.
@AlexM. Diablos and vampires probably aren't the same thing.
whoosh
@fredoverflow Hehe, nice.

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