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@R.MartinhoFernandes That would be {x | x = a or x = b or x = c}
{a, b, c} is listing the members in the set
@MartinJames the empty set. a wild raccoon appears
jk, its a skunk
@R.MartinhoFernandes It somehow does not convince me. I'd say {a | a = x} U {b | b = y} = {z | z = x || z = y}
But if you use names, those should not be variables
17:01
@Jefffrey I thought an English description would have a better effect here :P
{1} U {1} = {1}, not {1, 1}
Like {x} U {y} is {x, y} and they're two different elements
@AndyProwl So, what's the difference?
@AndyProwl No, not necessarily.
@R.MartinhoFernandes That x and y in {x, y} are not variable names, they are element names
If they were the same then you would have {x} or {y}
17:02
@AndyProwl I mean them as variables. I took a shortcut.
@R.MartinhoFernandes i would charge andy $20/10 minutes.
As I said, it's all about notation.
I’d rather have the capture-avoiding substitution be part of the theory than leaving it to me to take care of.
I'm trying to remember that site (or was it a github repo?) that listed a bunch of cool c++ projects by category. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, but this is what I'm arguing against (possibly being wrong). That when using the notation {...} like in {1, 1}, you're not using variables, you're using element names.
17:04
@AndyProwl Variables in mathematics are usually meant to be interchangeable with the values they might take.
And {x} U {y} is not defined to be {x, y}
@Jefffrey Whatever definition you take, it's a consequence of it.
It's defined to be as A U B = {x | x € A || x € B}
@R.MartinhoFernandes I dunno, I'm having a hard time thinking that 1 should be understood as a variable
And if you have the "correct no duplicate" {x, y, z...} notation...
17:06
@AndyProwl It doesn't have to, but all occurrences of 1 refer to the same object.
Then {x} U {y} = {x, y} only when x != y
@R.MartinhoFernandes Heh, not too long ago I was musing on how mathematical variables are more often intended as metavariables, unlike in programming. What’s your take on that?
@Jefffrey The "correct no duplicate" notation?
Jefffrey's notation
{1, 1, 2} is not valid
Oh well. Thanks for DeadMGing.
17:07
{...} enumerates the elements in the set
@R.MartinhoFernandes Right, which is why I have problems with repeated occurrences of it
I might be wrong
After all, "First, a set can have two or more members which are identical"
Jefffrey's notation is quite hard to work with and that's why no one uses it.
(from Wikipedia)
I hate it when I don't get it
{...} doesn't mean "construct a set by union of these singletons"
@AndyProwl That's a misleading phrasing.
@Jefffrey It can mean that. It's trivially provable.
@R.MartinhoFernandes No no, I mean that in my notation {...} differs in that...
45 secs ago, by Jefffrey
{...} doesn't mean "construct a set by union of these singletons"
Yes, and that's why no one uses it.
It doesn't have many properties that make proofs simple.
It's probably because it's too awesome be handled by mere mortals :P
@AndyProwl Where?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Such as?
17:09
@LucDanton From here
@Jefffrey Easy to change between intensional and extensional notation for one.
So easy that it's basically the same intensional notation for both syntaxes
The point is, if {x} U {y} is {z | z is in {x} || z is in {y}}, then {1} U {1} is {z | z is in {1} || z is in {1}}, which is {1}, not {1, 1}
@AndyProwl It's both!
@AndyProwl #{5, 5} = #{5} = 1.
17:12
{1} and {1, 1} are identical
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't get it. When listing object names, not variable names, {1, 1} should not be a valid notation
@Jefffrey Given J{x, y, z}, how do you represent it in intensional notation?
@AndyProwl With their filthy notation you can imagine {a, b, c} as being (singleton a) U (singleton b) U (singleton c)
That reminds me, I actually don’t really know set theory besides the naive formulation.
Not even {x, x} should be IMO
17:13
or equivalently {a, b, c} = {x | x = a || x = b || x = c}
@MomotapaLimpopo There's a discussion.
@Jefffrey That's not your notation.
@R.MartinhoFernandes What's J?
@AndyProwl You can settle on a notation where this is indeed invalid. What do you gain?
@AndyProwl But why should there be a difference between the two?
17:13
50 secs ago, by Jefffrey
@AndyProwl With their filthy notation you can imagine {a, b, c} as being (singleton a) U (singleton b) U (singleton c)
@Jefffrey Just a marker for your notation.
@Blob lol
Don't forget to make 1 * x also illegal because redundant
@R.MartinhoFernandes {a | a = x xor a = y xor a = z}
@LucDanton I just thought that's the way it is
@LucDanton Sure, I see what you mean
17:15
@AndyProwl I will never accept this answer when it comes to mathematics / formal discourse :)
@Jefffrey Yeah, and that makes proofs quite awkward.
How so?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Basically, because writing {x, y}, where x and y are variables names, may represent a singleton set, while writing {x, y}, where x and y are elements names, may not.
Ah shit I fucked up message editing
sorry @Luc
@AndyProwl And indeed {x, y}, where x and y are concrete objects, is not a singleton.
{x, x} is, though.
{x, x} should not be a set IMO, when x is an object name
17:18
What should it be then
@AndyProwl Yes, but why not?
Now you're overloading notation to mean something else in a very specific case and what do you gain
@R.MartinhoFernandes Because the point of a set is that it cannot contain the same element twice
And it doesn't
@AndyProwl And it doesn't. See definition of extensional notation.
@Jefffrey Because conjunction and disjunction are easier to work with.
17:19
It's kinda like saying you can't construct set object in whatever programming language from a sequence that hasn't already been uniquified
I find your notation to be more awkward actually
This is not a singleton set!
@R.MartinhoFernandes How so?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ok. I guess I just find the notation counter-intuitive
{x, x} is simply unreduced form
17:20
@Jefffrey You'll have to take my word for it. Or do a lot of proofs.
lol, is that a fallacy?
No, that's experience
user3010322
It's the Trust Me Fallacy.
user3010322
Like when Robot told me Tinnitus was a set of speakers. And I believed him. :(
No, it's just me presenting my experience as empirical evidence.
17:21
With my notation you have to define disjunction and conjunction with intensional notation.
(And you can add the majority of mathematicians to it if you want)
It's not a Trust Me fallacy. He wrote "Or do a lot of proofs."
You could go that way
user3010322
@AndyProwl Blackmail Fallacy!
With your notation you can define conjunction with extensional notation but disjunction with intentional notation.
user3010322
17:21
The proofs are full of pain and torture.
Jefffrey is the guy that writes a framework with no prior experience with things that framework is supposed to solve
@Jefffrey intensional*
I don't see how one is more complicated with the other
@Jefffrey What?
@CatPlusPlus This looks like an ad hominem.
17:22
You need conjunction and disjunction to build the notation.
You can't define them from there.
You don't need it.
user3010322
This talk reminds me that we need tuple-literal syntax.
@Jefffrey It's not an argument, it's an observation
@Jefffrey Go ahead and define the extensional notation then.
You just need the concepts of intensional notation to define the extensional notation with your own notation.
17:23
Don't use the words "and", "or" or similar.
user3010322
{[ x, y, z ]} = my_tuple_returning_function( a, b, c )
user3010322
Or something, I dunno.
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol, why not?
@Jefffrey Because that builds upon conjunction and disjunction.
Is that because you see how I'm right so you decide that those are not valid?
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, that builds on logic.
user3010322
17:24
But wait, we also need to declare things in there too...
Which is where conjunction and disjunction come from.
(Don't confuse conjunction with set intersection, or disjunction with set union)
or and and has nothing to do with conjunction and disjunction in set theory
@Jefffrey They are conjunction and disjunction, irrespectively.
(irrespectively best word)
@R.MartinhoFernandes Then you meant set intersection and set union here
17:25
@Jefffrey I did not.
user3010322
I wonder if { auto x, auto y, auto z } = tuple_return( a, b, c ); is something that could cause grammar ambiguity...
6 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@Jefffrey Because conjunction and disjunction are easier to work with.
@Jefffrey Maybe you meant that here?
Then please explain this message
@Jefffrey I meant it as written. Exclusive disjunction is not as nice to work with.
17:26
How so?
I'll refer back to experience.
So I need to trust you?
Or do a lot of proofs, yes.
You can just try it out
I have no idea what I have to try out
17:28
The thing you're proposing, in actual application
Note that I'm not saying you cannot build a theory of sets on top of your notation; I'm just saying it's not going to be as easy to use.
Last time I actually went and took the time to try something out, I've found out that the statistics didn't say what people said they would. So sorry for not trusting your word.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes, but every time I ask for an example, you don't give me one. So I guess we can end the argument here?
@Jefffrey An example shows nothing.
I can make examples that make either side look easier.
An example shows an example.
@R.MartinhoFernandes So what is your point?
Yes, and who cares?
@Jefffrey There are more examples where one side looks easier.
17:30
@R.MartinhoFernandes I do?
That examples don't reflect actual use
@R.MartinhoFernandes I can't wait for your proof on that.
I'm not doing that.
I know
I presented empirical evidence.
You can gather it too.
17:31
Your empirical evidence.
That's quite biased.
Most people working with set theory seem to have similar evidence, judging by the almost non-existence of uses of exclusive disjunction.
guys, I have a question. I want to get into programming for embedded devices? How can I try stuff. Do I need a raspberry pi or is there anything better?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh boi, "most people"? Really?
@Jefffrey Well, apparently you don't, so I can't say everyone.
Yeah, there can't be any other reason for which my notation is not so used.
17:33
I'm killing my cold with onion and garlic and this thread is getting extremely dumb
3
Like historic notation.
That would be a first right?
@Jefffrey That's a pretty important point here!
If there is historical background, there is a lot of work built on it, so it makes a lot of things easier.
I'm sure they settled on the first thing they came up even though it's worse
You can use established theorems.
@R.MartinhoFernandes You still have to prove that with my notation most theorems are actually destroyed.
17:35
No, I don't.
Ok, then let's go out shouting random things.
Just like you don't have to rewrite set theory.
@R.MartinhoFernandes You are trying to claim that my notation is somehow worse than the regular notation. And I'm trying to obviously defend my notation. And every time I ask for an example of any kind of proof, I don't get any.
man, i remember when TED talks used to not be shit
17:36
So I'm not sure as to why we should continue talking about this.
Sounds pointless to me.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Piracy
@Jefffrey As I said, it's easy to give misleading examples both ways. You can keep insisting on examples all you want, but you're not getting only a few meaningless examples. And you're not getting a ton because I'm not undertaking that much effort.
And examples are very important. Because that's the easiest way to convince me that my notation sucks. Which seems to be your goal. Or why would you be discussion with me on this otherwise?
A few examples cannot possibly be convincing.
user3010322
Examples are evil.
user3010322
17:38
Computer Science Theory has taught me that much.
user3010322
(Screw you, Pumping Lemma.)
Pupping lemma
If you want to check it yourself, grab some set theory textbook and do the exercises.
@R.MartinhoFernandes They can, if I get on your own thinking path which seems to lead to the conclusion that in most cases there are advantages to using your own notation.
And I honestly don't see 1 single instance in which my notation is in any way better than yours or viceversa.
So 1 single example would be much more helpful than none at all.
Exclusive disjunction doesn't distribute, not even over itself; it is not idempotent; it is not monotonic; it is not truth-preserving.
No examples.
17:46
Have you tried hitting it with a half-brick in a sock?
It is having a lot of useful properties that makes conjunction and disjunction preferable as bases.
obsuditor.ddns.net/ftt -- browser tank MMO written in C++ / JS
@R.MartinhoFernandes Are we talking about disjunction and conjunction in defining set intersection and set union?
@Jefffrey No, in anything.
are we still talking about sets?
17:49
set theory is like Fight CLube, no one gets it the first time and don't talk about it!
i'm sorry i said sets are unordered
please change topics
Introducing exclusive disjunction bring very few useful properties, and I bet one would find oneself constantly expanding it into its definition in terms of conjunction and disjunction.
@R.MartinhoFernandes The only place where I can see exclusive or as opposed to or and and is when transforming from extensional to intensional notation using my notation. Where else where you thinking?
Well, Spring Fever has really set into the ~house area~ everyone is doing gardening and wanting to cut hedges for some reason
Once you have defined union and intersection, you can pretty much use them to do anything.
17:52
No, you cannot.
Ok, I'm tired of asking "how so".
You win.
are you getting confused with the fact that in binary, NAND is the simplest gate (just two transistors) and from that you can make everything else?
@Jefffrey Even considering just that. When you switch to intensional notation, you get these bits with exclusive disjunction in it, which, by virtue of not having many useful properties are a bit useless in a proof, so you will expand it into its definition using conjunction and disjunction and the expansion adds more terms than you actually need.
Less terms and more properties make proofs easier.
I don't know how else to put it.
@R.MartinhoFernandes interestingly, both made their way into Romanian
"arama" and "cupru" mean the same thing
the latter is most used

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