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14:00
We lost a peering session with one of our ISPs and experienced a network reconvergence at 14:37 UTC. We are still working on the issue.
@Puppy or just drop items :D
@Puppy You can make it look shorter by holding binoculars the wrong way around.
does coliru have boost?
#ProcrastinationProtip
Ok I guess this means we can't chat
14:06
The Cogent router we peer to has disappeared off their network. their emote hands are on the way to get it back online.
Our BGP session to Cogent is bouncing - we are disabling and moving to Lighttower. One more reconvergence will happen in a moment.
Xeo
Xeo
@Feeds "emote hands", eh.
@thecoshman Yes
@Xeo 👍
@Jefffrey right so, I'm just being bad
Lighttower Races to Oblivion
@thecoshman That... doesn't appear to be a valid character.
14:08
for goodness's sake the only "useful" Wireshark Lua dissector example I can find is complicated as fuck
@Griwes it is, your font sucks
@thecoshman I copied it and asked a bot on IRC about it. It says that it doesn't exist.
(Yes I have correct encoding.)
the thing it shows is different from the icon i see..
mine faces left
@Griwes You are on Windows correct?
14:11
so am i. use firefox.
@Blob fonts vov
it's the same for me
@Blob Just like 'a' can be written in different ways.
@Jefffrey Linux.
@LucDanton we need a damn standard
it's just a "thumbs up sign" it doesn't say much more then that, I'd presume that the solid fill is implied...
14:12
Uniglyph? Unigraph? :)
@Jefffrey good for you
@Griwes Maybe it got butchered by your IRC client, or the bot's or the bot sucks..
Yeah, bot's got a bug.
I know you know everything so that you should help me, i hope. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/29493671/set-the-limit-in-queue
Any tips...I've already spent for the issue about 4 hours.
14:14
Or maybe the bot does not use Unicode 6.0 - which is 5 years young, after all
Oh noes, entire 4 hours!
@Ascelhem So, why don't you just
"Check whether free space in Queue is available.
If there is no space - wait.
Write in the Queue until the limit"
@райтфолд you actually tries using that asym thing?
@Blob we could do with fewer standards ;)
We are now communicating entirely through the Lighttower. We will work with Cogent to get redundancy back online ASAP.
14:17
aaand my HP Stream 7 tablet arrived
well I picked it up
@sehe But then, how would you ever know if your pickles have insufficient curvature?
Full windows on a 7" screen is funny
> “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.” — Some wise person who wasn’t Einstein.
@R.MartinhoFernandes That’s what I always say. The crazy keeps coming though!
@Feeds should you tweet stuff like that
@gha.st you lick them, obviously
hmm
I appear to have misplaced 40 capsules of Tramadol.
@sehe Would it not be much better if they already came pre-licked and sorted according to curvedness?
This way you don't have to lick so many pickles to find one that fits your mood!
@Puppy Don't ask me. Despite rumours to the contrary, I cannot supply drugs:)
14:44
@gha.st :D I like that
I have a pickling predelicktion for that
See, standards are awesome ;D
Except low standards
True.
like C++?
You have to be high to truly understand the C++ standard, so...
14:47
They're on the rise. (r)values as high as c++17 have been seen
Standards rise in orbit
bah
some friends of mine want me to sign up for Facebook to arrange some social events
I trust Facebook about as far as I can throw the flat I live in
@sehe That is a pretty horrible drop from C++98!
14:56
FUCK
I just remembered something I had to do, I went to put it on my list, and I promptly forgot what it was.
Not right now
ah whew, I remembered.
'take memory medication'
I'm wearing my shirt inside out.
That explains why buttoning it felt weird this morning.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Two guys working on building a house. One guy complains that he's trying to get work done, but half the nails he picks up out of the bucket have the heads on the wrong end. The other guy comes over and says: "You idiot. Those aren't on the wrong end. They're for the other side of the house."
15:09
@R.MartinhoFernandes Link to the previous 8 stats?
@Jefffrey Dunno. Joel tweeted the picture.
> This survey under represents developers who don't like to take English surveys.
@BartekBanachewicz I'm going to have to setup a VPN, the GTWorld Channel decided to make the videos not available in the USA!
Wow, they're doing this a lot better than last year.
@sizzle whaaat
Yesterday, we were talking about the Blancpain series.
15:12
@MomotapaLimpopo I'm really good at forgetting all about these things...
in On lockfree logging, queuing and memory order, Feb 2 at 9:40, by sehe
your compiler... does it love you?
You mentioned the GTWorld YouTube Channel.
@R.MartinhoFernandes And who don't visit SO at all
@Lightning ^
> Upon closer examination of the data, a trend emerges: Developers increasingly prefer spaces as they gain experience. Stack Overflow reputation correlates with a preference for spaces, too: users who have 10,000 rep or more prefer spaces to tabs at a ratio of 3 to 1.
Using spaces is one of the causes of having experience, of course.
6
> I shoot lasers at stuffz: 0.005%
Where's the "i don't indent anything" option
@SamDeHaan then you're not discriminating against tabs nor spaces. Go in peace
> XII. Job Satisfaction by Dev Type
Executive (VP of Eng., CTO, CIO, etc.): 3.90
"Dev Type"
@R.MartinhoFernandes I deserve 10k rep then
holy god just 68 slovakians?
@SamDeHaan Right next to "Does not apply: I only ever use a single line."
No way, Italy has half more developers than China? wat
15:24
imma update my careers profile just to bump the slovakian counter
@gha.st You can still indent a single line, if you wish
15 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
> This survey under represents developers who don't like to take English surveys.
@Jefffrey Chinese people just learn how to DDOS.
Doze stats
15:26
I was wondering, is there a list of all arguments from "space" and "tab" guys?
popularity of C++ decreasing recently?
am I imagining things?
It decreased less recently
Universities keep spawning javalings :/
I never had the tabs vs spaces argument.
@Jefffrey You never developed in python, I guess
15:27
I write in Haskell, where whitespace is very relevant. I don't like dynamically typed languages too much.
that would work too
> We always said participating on Stack Overflow is good for your career. Now we have proof.
ahahahaha
ITT correlation = causation
I want ramen
I will go and acquire ramen
@ScarletAmaranth It's not really that the popularity of C++ is decreasing. It's that we're better at answering questions. Just for example, quoting the standard happens in and , but almost nowhere else. Those answers are generally absolute and open to little change until or unless the standard changes. That leads to a second point: I'm pretty sure we close (far) more questions as dupes, because our canonical answers really are canonical.
@JerryCoffin o boy; we seem to know our shit at least according to you :P (also what are you doing reading C questions!)
15:35
@AlexM. "ramen" is very close to "rame" which means "copper" in italian. So everytime someone says something along the lines of "I'm going to eat a plate of ramen" or "I will go and aquire ramen" it sounds so weird.
@JerryCoffin we should start writing more shitty answers apparently
@ScarletAmaranth I've been known to answer a C question now and again.
why spaces over tabs?
my vim is set to use spaces but VS uses tabs; i don't particularly care
@Blob Because it gives you experience.
@Jefffrey I think I need to talk a couple of my coworkers into having ramen for lunch. It's been a while since we did that...
15:38
I can see 1 advantage of spaces: alignment of things is equal everywhere.
@Jefffrey STAHP
i use spaces to align when using tabs
@Blob Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.
7
That's so deep.
no it's not. it's just a nice quote.
there's only one layer to it
15:39
@Blob There clearly are 3: Good judgment is built on top of the experience layer which is built on top of the bad judgment layer.
Spaces are more primitive and dumb but so is the most of the widely used software and people
i never did well in English classes
Ugh, people trying to push for making hydrogen from corn.
in a way, they are a solution for these dark ages we live in
@Jefffrey and apparently neither did you
15:40
@BartekBanachewicz Why are they dumb?
@Jefffrey do you know HTML 4?
@BartekBanachewicz Do you know how to cook potatoes so they are crispy on the outside but soft on the inside?
@Jefffrey no.
Argumentum ad HSPL.
15:42
@BartekBanachewicz yes.
@Jefffrey Make mashed potatoes, form into balls, then deep-fry.
@Jefffrey what's its most obvious flaw?
I don't know.
In what context specifically?
@BartekBanachewicz <b><i>hi</b> world</i> isn't legal.
the no nesting rule is stupid
@Jefffrey the root of the word is aramen
15:43
@Blob It's really not.
latin
it's not like people write clean html anyways
aramen = copper
so yeah :D
@R.MartinhoFernandes hmm "as they gain experience" or "as their age increases" and by extension "as they come from increasingly far in the past"?
@Jefffrey what I'm on about is that old HTML mixed the content with the presentation
that's what spaces do.
15:43
TIL writing Wireshark packet dissectors in Lua is easy as fuck. New line on CV, TYVM
if we spoke latin it would be even more weird
@BartekBanachewicz That has nothing to do with HTML4 per se
ideally source code could be stored as an AST and rendered to text via a set of rules to e.g. AStyle
It's how HTML4 was used due to the limitations of CSS
I dunno. I think source code stored as text is perfectly fine.
15:44
@BartekBanachewicz lolwat
@R.MartinhoFernandes It would be a boring world if we all agreed on everything.
@AlexM. Latin is cuprum.
Since any valid source code uniquely represents an AST, it already is.
@gha.st Exactly.
source code is AST mixed with presentation details
IMHO they should be kept separate
cue semantic diff and source control again
15:45
It is just an AST with a default presentation applied.
Yeah, you're totally missing the point.
I see, so spaces guys are pragmatic, while tabs guys are purists.
It's the map-location paradox again.
@Jefffrey IME, yep.
Got it.
15:46
@R.MartinhoFernandes some sources/references on that one? How do I google for it?
But even if you had the source code stored as an AST, when it comes to presentation you would still have to make the "tabs vs spaces" decision, no?
@AndyProwl Source code is stored as an AST!
@BartekBanachewicz "What do we talk about when we talk about love"?
(Might be farfetched, but screw it. Birdman is awesome)
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, I mean, if the presentation part was kept separate from the semantic part
@AndyProwl Really you want to describe a indentation distance - which has nothing to to with either tabs or spaces
@R.MartinhoFernandes Whiplash is better by like a mile
15:48
@R.MartinhoFernandes I haven't seen it so I don't know what you're talking about.
hola senoras
@AndyProwl the presentation isn't nearly as important when it comes to collaboration IMHO
And don't bring up that "it's all 1 long camera movement" crap. I don't care what camera does. And it's not that original either.
@AndyProwl It isn't? I mean, if you assume (non-meaningful) whitespace won't be in such an AST, a representation with any combination of whitespace uniquely identifies one AST. So, it is separate.
@gha.st I'm not sure I'm getting the point of the conversation. I'm just saying that separating the semantic part from the presentation part only shifts the "tabs vs spaces" issue, it does not eliminate it
15:48
there are 0 devs from North Korea on SO
not surprising
@BartekBanachewicz Ah, yeah I get what you mean
@AndyProwl welp no one forces you to use either. You can just render offset text.
the gap on the left fn the text is an implementation detail.
@BartekBanachewicz A thing is not its representation. Numeral vs number, map vs city, word vs concept, source code vs program.
@BartekBanachewicz How would you solve the "alignment is off unless you choose my exact tab size" problem?
Like:
@R.MartinhoFernandes in this particular case I disagree with you then. A rendition of source as text is a representation of AST.
15:51
2 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@AndyProwl It isn't? I mean, if you assume (non-meaningful) whitespace won't be in such an AST, a representation with any combination of whitespace uniquely identifies one AST. So, it is separate.
data Something = X
               | Y
@Jefffrey by using better visualization tools that can align automatically or don't need alignment at all
@BartekBanachewicz The source code is the representation.
The displayed result is just another, but who cares.
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes.
@BartekBanachewicz So, programs are already stored as ASTs today.
15:52
So @Bartek basically you're saying that the source control should store ASTs in some form, right? Rather than formatted code... but isn't the formatted code already encoding an AST?
Could that "some form" be, I don't know, text?
a formatted code is a poor way to store an AST
Like... what you call it? Source code?
@BartekBanachewicz It has several advantages.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah that's what I meant
@R.MartinhoFernandes I am aware of that. If it hadn't, I don't see how it would be so popular.
15:53
@BartekBanachewicz It is human-readable without advanced tools. Unlike e.g. an XML representation of the underlying AST >.>
where "so popular" is really a huge understatement
@BartekBanachewicz PHP
I understand Bartek point. But like... what advantages do tabs actually provide?
PHP also has several advantages
> If it hadn't, I don't see how it would be so popular.
It may not be extremely compact, but it compresses quite easily.
15:54
@Jefffrey Tabs and spaces have different tradeoffs.
@BartekBanachewicz Can't tell that, not expert enough to judge, but it is still possible to separate the semantic aspect from the presentation aspect, right? I mean, isn't that what clang-format allows to do?
@Puppy That's why I'm asking. I can only see spaces advantages right now.
@AndyProwl Yep.
You can just clang-format things automatically as you check them out
@Jefffrey they offer you a step into a world of source code not carrying exact formatting information.
15:54
@R.MartinhoFernandes Does size on the order of magnitude we are talking about even really matter anymore?
@AndyProwl In source code, the presentation is only mixed in if you want it so as the reader.
the main advantage of tabs is that each user can set the tab width to whatever they want.
It's not at all like in HTML.
instead, it carries semantic information that can be interpreted in different ways
In HTML the presentation is the program.
15:55
the main problem with tabs is that the user is not always the one setting the tab width - see Pastebin with 8-wide tabs that hardly anyone wants, for example.
@BartekBanachewicz I mean, practically. What's the advantage.
You can't change it (to a certain extent).
If you change the presentation, you change the program.
14 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Argumentum ad HSPL.
@Jefffrey different people can interpret tabs as different visual representation without altering the program behaviour
@BartekBanachewicz And so they can for spaces.
And even worse: For variable names...
15:56
@BartekBanachewicz You're actually advocating for the mixing of presentation and semantics there, by attributing meaning to tabs.
@BartekBanachewicz Can you make an example? I can't quite visualize this.
personally I think the issue is completely resolved with autoformatting tools that can simply convert easily from one representation to another.
@R.MartinhoFernandes have you noticed the one message when I used the word "primitive"?
Tabs are just as meaningless (assuming whitespace-agnostic languages) as spaces; they don't make for different programs.
yep.
any program could be written to convert X-space number of spaces to a tab at render-time.
15:57
@Jefffrey you can set your editor to display tabs as a two-space gap, and I can set mine to four. We can still work on the same file, but we see it in a different way
@BartekBanachewicz The problem with that is when Pastebin sets it to 8 for everybody and nobody wants 8.
If you attribute meaning to them ("blah blah you can choose the size of indentations"), you are effectively mixing presentation in.
just for example.
It still makes sense to ask whether there is a more convenient way to store a program than plain text for source control, though
I don't know the answer
the user doesn't always have control here.
15:58
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, and I want to see it in K&R style, not Allman.
So pastebin sucks. shrug
@AndyProwl A binary graph + per-user styling descriptors
no more whitespace errors.
has anyone here tried crystal? if so, what do you think?
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, but then you have the alignment issue. And when we read code from github, we read it according to Github settings.
actually meaningful diffs
way faster operation, parsing, whatever
15:59
@BartekBanachewicz That by itself does not solve the problem.
@BartekBanachewicz The problem is not in storage.
@BartekBanachewicz It's not about errors I think. Current tools allow solving the problem. It's more about efficiency or something
@R.MartinhoFernandes it does.
The tabs is configurable argument assumes you never need a specific alignment
Take for instance
@Mr.kbok you can use spaces for alignment
@BartekBanachewicz "Any representation+per-user styling descriptors" does as well, though.
15:59
T::T()
  : a()
  , b() {
}

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