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15:00
@Griwes isn't that what "objectively" means? That's how it's always used, at least
user1804599
Migrate them to Lounge<C++>. :P
It's hard to argue for slicing, though.
@рытфолд pfft
@R.MartinhoFernandes it decreases cooking time and increases internal texture consistency
@jalf You can't just claim something is "objectively" something, when the majority keeps telling you you are wrong, without providing arguments.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It also makes me bleed.
15:01
@Griwes That's objectively false
@Griwes It's abstraction inversion.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Nice.
@R.MartinhoFernandes sounds like the start of a popular beat combo
@Griwes ta
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: All your abstraction is inversion to us. [c++] [c++11] [c++14] [c++-faq]
15:02
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: All your abstraction are inversion to us. [c++] [c++11] [c++14] [c++-faq]
I got the number wrong right not the right kind of wrong.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sure. "Stack objects are harmful" doesn't follow, though. We should just hard error on slicing, instead of saying they are bad.
@Griwes I was just name dropping abstraction inversion again.
I wasn't expecting you to just "Sure" it.
The only time when stack objects are harmful is when you stack them too high.
Heck, "stack objects" are beautiful, since you can prove that one that isn't passed is uniquely owned by you.
@Griwes FWIW, I once solved a tricky problem in an elegant manner with slicing.
15:04
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hey, but it is hard to argue for slicing!
@R.MartinhoFernandes Can you share it?
It was a workaround for an awkward legacy API, though.
Last chance to migrate these comments to a chatroom before I flag them and they all get permanently nuked by a mod. — Lightness Races in Orbit 4 mins ago
lol.
@Griwes Maybe you can ask @sbi. It was in the code base he used. I don't remember all the details.
codebasebook.com
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol did he edit the Wikipedia page to add RAII as an example of abstraction inversion?
15:05
4 mins ago, by рытфолд
Migrate them to Lounge<C++>. :P
@AndyProwl Yes.
facepalm
@AndyProwl You literally just posted the proof
He undid my undo?
lol.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Proof of what?
15:05
@Griwes Please don't engage in a rollback war in wikipedia.
Can you edit and flag a wikipedia page at once?
I primarily want to flag it.
Try to remain objective.
Start a discussion about merging it with "Leaky abstraction". I think it's where what little content is in there belongs.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I've undone it again, but I'll only do it once, and if I weren't the only one with an actual user account then I wouldn't have done it at all.
Besides, odds are he's closed the page by now.
15:07
I have a user account.
@R.MartinhoFernandes +who has already been involved in the edits
@Griwes Sure you can. That's what people do 95% of the time when they use the word "objectively"
@AndyProwl Fermat's last theorem
15:08
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Ah, yeah, I just thought it would be nice to post an alternative proof
In its most common usage the word basically seems to mean "I'm not going to back up my claim with any kind of evidence or logical arguments, but I'm right anyway!"
lol, I just knew the 'try-finally' was going to blow up.
I want to buy a coffee machine
there are some discounts going on at a store here, hmm
Go get one of those fancy k-cup thingies.
15:22
there's this
at a 54% discount
looks good to me
for the price of an AAA title at release, I can't go wrong
Watch out for DRM.
Watch out for launch day bugs.
(Not that I know the particular brand and model.)
I have a Keurig coffee maker at home.
> The Crittercism transaction management solution provides us mobile intelligence to effectively manage performance with business context.
15:27
@R.MartinhoFernandes not objectively wrong :)
It has a touchscreen.
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol
@AndyProwl my job. I was on it for some time
@Griwes That's what our cat tends to do. But then we kick him out of the house
@EtiennedeMartel Exorcism for twitter creatures?
@Nooble can't help but read "Decent" for that brand name
Adjective: keurig (comparative keuriger, superlative keurigst)
  1. proper, decorous
@sehe Your guess is as good as mine, honestly.
Then I prefer mine.
15:31
I cant decide whether or not I want to make properties into their own class or just make manual getters and setters for everything
@AlexM. beh capsules
@BartekBanachewicz The fuuutttuuuurrreeee. Also, in the future, everything's made outnof chrome.
capsules seem cheap and quick to use
I don't see myself making coffee out of the capsules in any point of my future
@AlexM. the usage isn't cheaper, the hardware is
15:38
it doesn't help that machines taking in coffee beans cost XXXXXXXX$ more
But convenience.
@AlexM. meh, and they aren't even that good; most of them have blade-based grinders
@Nooble pff. I can understand that at work. But at home?
my parents spent $1500 on a machine that grinds coffee
@AlexM. I am aiming for a manual one.
I ain't that crazy
15:39
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ah, good point. Had to do a bit of editing anyway, and included that. Thank you.
@AlexM. I have a manual grinder vOv
that actually grinds the beans instead of cutting them.
do you need to work with the manual grinder
yes, you put the beans into it and grind them.
lol that's too much effort
that makes the best coffee vOv
15:40
@рытфолд I just made the std: typo
std::typo
I don't drink coffee anyway, I just use it for hot cocoa. My parents use it for coffee though, and every week they buy capsules.
@AlexM. electric grinders are bad for two reasons: a) blades cut the beans in an uneven fashion, which is bad for the taste b) they can overheat the coffee to the point of burning it, which is bad for the taste
b) isn't that important if you grind small amounts of coffee, but a) has tremendous impact.
I want coffee without having to work
good coffee takes skill and effort
15:42
put something in and press a button
@AlexM. 3D print coffee.
@Nooble from what I see...
16 capsules here are $5
and I only drink during weekends because I get coffee from the machine at work
Here it's 30 for $9.99.
I dunno, I'd be reluctant to grind the coffee from capsules that a) has been preground b) it's of an uknown origin
Shit, this guy is everywhere.
(hihihi)
15:44
How do you find a copy of that bill?
and I'm not even started on brewing methods
@AlexM. visit me sometime and I'll make you a proper, handmade coffee :)
you just want me to visit you now ;)
I'd want to visit me too
No one can visit me currently. Below freezing here and about a metre of snow, complemented with 21mph winds and absolutely no means of transportation.
15:52
Speaking of Haskell, do they have GLFW 3.1 bindings now or no?
@Nooble wasn't the last one based on 3.1?
oh actually not
hmpfh
why wasn't this updated
Last stable release was 3.0.4, I believe.
well time to fork it and add 3.1 support
maybe someone did that already
um I don't think so
@Nooble Haskell community is sadly underpeopled
15:58
Underquiet too.
I like that word.
@R.MartinhoFernandes we need to spread the word
we need contributors
I've emailed the maintainer
@BartekBanachewicz Good coffee requires hallucinatory drugs.
ffs soundcloud doesn't ask for confirmation when you accidentally hit the "Like" button on your "Likes" page ... the song just vanishes immediately leaving you with no clue what it was that you loved so much -.
@JerryCoffin Eucalyptus?
oh shit
GLFW-b fails tests on my machine
shit.
16:09
it's the year 2560
humans are aware of the universe's limits and have colonized most of it
@AlexM. day 1440?
nooble still makes that shitty eucalyptus joke
Lol
@BartekBanachewicz What do you mean?
@Nooble I ran the tests and they fail.
Oh those.
Well at least you didn't have any trouble compiling.
16:11
@Nooble Based on your posts, it appears to be an effective hallucinogen.
@AlexM. I don't think we'll be able to colonize the universe in 500 years.
@Nooble I'm building bindings-GLFW now
@AlexM. First comes The Year 2525.
We've barely colonized the whole earth in the last 500 years.
@BartekBanachewicz Said Chopin, never
@JerryCoffin Why does YT insist I be afraid of getting invisible freckles?
16:16
oooooh, there are capsules for hot chocolate too
from milka
and capsules for something that has to do with oreo
Yum.
ok I ordered some oreo capsules I wonder what they're like
@AlexM. I love those.
they're by jacobs so it's probably this but in capsule geschmacksverstaerker.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/…
Did the machine you buy have selectable amount to dispense? Like 8oz, 12oz, etc?
16:21
I think so, let me check
but the idea is that the Tassimo capsules are somehow automated
the machine reads the barcode on them
and knows how to make the drink
That's different.
seems Bosch is not exactly huge outside this part of Europe
trying hard to find the same machine sold in the UK or US
Bosch is reasonably well-known in the UK
this is the exact thing I got
@TheForestAndTheTrees might be just the coffee machines then
or maybe google insisting in giving me Romanian results
here's the model in one store at least, so I guess google just hates you
16:29
fuck
there's a file that's been deleted from the repo
and I've no idea where its functionality went
msvc and intel have compiler extensions for properties in c++
neato
@Pris I wondered what you were on about. I assumed C#.
people email the iso cpp mailing about properties fairly often too it seems
linkpls
ive never used C# so i think there's this fundamental gap in my understanding; why cant you just use a simple template class Property<T> and give it a getter and setter? is there something else properties do?
16:36
@Pris syntax sugar
@Pris they don't have you write classes to emulate them
@AlexM. its just one class though, and it seems like a trivial one that would take someone 5 minutes to write
getters and setters take people 5 minutes to write in C#
yet, they use properties
why?
is that question even serious
D has properties too... and they are nearly identical to c++ setters and getters dlang.org/cpptod.html#properties
i guess they let you avoid the function operator
can you answer my question?
16:41
@Pris If it's just one class, it's pointless.
Hi everyone! I just realized that this pointers are very useful in constructors.
inb4 tight coupling and violation of separation of concerns
@DonLarynx if you had more than one this in your constructors
the universe would explode
he's most probably passing the pointer to the owner to the owned class
It's abstraction inversion.
16:45
What I'm doing:

Classname(int foo1, int foo2){
this->foo1 = foo1;
this->foo2 = foo2;
}
use initializer lists
@sehe Pretty sure it comes down to: You shall not pass!
@DonLarynx Classname(int foo1, int foo2) : foo1(foo1), foo2(foo2) {}
	template<typename T>
	class Property {
	public:
		T get() { return m_data; }
		void set(T const &data) { m_data = data; }

	private:
		T m_data;
	};

	Property<int> x;
	int a = x.get();
	x.set(42);
why doesnt everyone who wants properties just do that
@Pris the answer to my question answers yours
if you bothered to use your brain to answer it that is
16:47
"Please provide documentation of each step." These requests always make me laugh. It's the equivalent of putting up a sign that says "I don't want to do my homework, please do it for me." — Borgleader 8 secs ago
@Pris Why would anybody do that? It's utterly stupid and pointless.
@DonLarynx what @AlexM. did
@BartekBanachewicz We have a new catchphrase.
another lounge me-me
speaking of memes
it's been a while since I heard anything about blowlang
gotta check that guy's channel
16:48
@Pris That's much ado about nothing.
is he still alive, hmm
That class does pretty much that. Nothing.
Actually, not quite.
fuck it seems that GLFW 3.1 is actually doing a lot of changes
It adds a few possibly problematic corner cases.
@R.MartinhoFernandes get is a copy
16:50
int x;
int a = x;
x = 42;
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not to mention making the syntax ugly and hurting readability and understandability.
it's hurting immutability
i think properties check if the value that is being assigned is the same before setting it so you could add that in the setter
it's an abstraction inversion
i dont know, im just confused about properties
16:50
@Pris who cares about that really
@Pris Then your class won't work.
Very cool. I like them better than this pointers. @AlexM
if you have POD-ish types, setting is typically less expensive than this check
Good luck writing one class that does that.
@Pris Oh wait. I misread that.
I thought you meant some kind of validation.
lol
void set (int newValue) {
    if (oldValue != newValue) // for performance
        oldValue = newValue;
}
hilarious
16:53
might matter if the property is an array, string, matrix, etc. but yeah, pointless for trivial types
and id wager most properties are trivial types (maybe strings is an exception )
why would it matter?
@Pris At a guess, that's because you're trying to find something useful there. You're missing the point that in the vast majority of cases, they just don't make any sense at all. People are taking what are conceptually simple variables, and turning them into "properties" in the mistaken belief that this is somehow object oriented.
@Pris it would just add overhead
pointer assignment is as expensive as int assignment
@Pris If cost of reassignment really matters, the assignment operator likely does that check already. If it doesn't, it should. Or still probably not. Reassignment doesn't really happen that often.
16:54
don't do those things until you find a performance problem gosh
it's a microdeoptimization
@BartekBanachewicz im not looking to use fproperties for performance gains
yes, we're wondering why would you ever use them for anything in C++
@R.MartinhoFernandes ...but it can only make sense at all for a case where comparison is significantly cheaper than assignment. That can work for things like a string that's stored with a hash, and you only copy the string if the hashes differ, but in most cases, comparison is (at least) as expensive as copying, so it's a net loss.
@Pris so what's the motivation?
change notification
16:55
ok, that makes slightly more sense
I dunno really
the abstraction of a "property" becomes slightly useful if setting the value has to perform other (related) actions, e.g. firing an event or logging a message. But if all it has to do is wrap the value (like it does in your example above), then you can just expose a value
thats why i ever considered it, but then the bit about not having to write setters and getters seemed nice... but then i got confused
C++ isn't very good with FRP-like programming
So wait...is abstraction inversion just Classname(int foo(), int bar) where you're calling foo() but it doesn't exist yet?
4
16:57
it's a meme.
@BartekBanachewicz have you ever used QML?
what's that
is that the QT invention
'invention'... its a declarative ui language
@DonLarynx lolwut
@Pris yeah the QT invention
16:58
@Pris When you actually want something useful (and it can happen), you usually should not have a get and a set. You should have an operator T and a operator=, so assigning to this variable uses the same syntax as assigning to other variables.
but yeah. The Enlightenment libs have something similar too called Edje i think... that's written in C tho
and I care because?
@DonLarynx I didn't get what you meant in the slightest
@BartekBanachewicz you shouldn't, I am just talking to you.
you're certainly writing out some words yes
and
that's infallible. punishable by law. it's like talking about three dimensions in flatland...ok stopping now.
16:59
@DonLarynx No. Abstraction inversion is the newest Lounge meme.

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