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13:03
@AlexM. what's up man?
@FilipRoséen-refp Then use caffeine
@FilipRoséen-refp I've had the worst pizza in a while and I'm trying not to vomit
@Rerito as if I've been drinking anything but coffee (and alcohol, obligatory party after the hugo boss show) these last 72 hours?
colleagues chose some place to order food from and I saw the pizza and said why not, though the cheap price worried me a bit
@AlexM. I'd kill for a pizza right now
13:04
@FilipRoséen-refp Then some good tea to help with the comedown :p
just don't get this one, it looked okay but it wasn't
currently at the university (just arrived back in stockholm), was just going to "fix a few things" before heading home - but now I'm too tired to leave
it was a mixture of salty and sweet
Xeo
Xeo
I really like this soundtrack.
@BartekBanachewicz lolwat
Xeo
Xeo
13:05
Too bad it's so short
@FilipRoséen-refp sleep on a desk :D
@Jefffrey have you missed that?
@Xeo A rickroll is tempting here
Xeo
Xeo
It's not
@BartekBanachewicz yup
13:06
@AlexM. my girlfriends flat is 10 minutes away by bus, but.. it's a three minute walk to the bus
that makes it a 13 + N waiting minute ride, which is far too much for me right now
thinking about calling a cab, but I don't wanna waste money on that
@FilipRoséen-refp Temperature outside?

Puppy implements pattern matching by accident

Jan 14 at 15:22, 54 minutes total – 227 messages, 18 users, 19 stars

Bookmarked 7 secs ago by Bartek Banachewicz

But really pattern matching sucks
@Jefffrey what now
13:08
@R.MartinhoFernandes You use Blender?
At work?
Except maybe for objects that will always contain just one value (like Maybe)
@Rerito negative something something (C)
@Jefffrey what about Either?
And where the order is implicit, like a Vector3
@Rerito seems to be around 0 degrees C actually, so it's not super cold
13:09
so "pattern matching sucks when you use it badly" ?
@sehe Nice, I'd upvote you again, but alas I cannot.
@BartekBanachewicz When you use it for anything that is not trivial, yes.
@FilipRoséen-refp You could google the bus schedule to know when to get to the stop in time :)
@Jefffrey If it's not trivial, you should cascade destructurings
what is that
13:10
case outer of
    A inner -> case inner of
                       IA x ...
of course don't nest it like that, use functions, but you get the idea
@Rerito it's better to use the app the government has for checking such things, google isn't always accurate (and the app is real-time anyhow, you can see where the buses are at the moment etc etc); but yeah, I could
@BartekBanachewicz lolwat
How does that solve anything?
The problem is not with nested data structures
so with what?
@FilipRoséen-refp By that I meant: find the site of the city dedicated to that specific matter and ask it to tell you the schedule. Indeed if you have a mobile app that's all the same :p
Even with Person Name TaxCode the problem arises
13:12
ah records
use Lenses for them
Use whatever you want but pattern matching sucks for them.
For any data structure where the order of the elements can change and/or is not implicit.
Which is basically 87% of the data you'll need.
um, actually
you haven't still learned how to use Lenses, no?
because typically you don't have more than one wrapped value
I did use them for the snake project.
if you have a record, don't match on its fields but use Lens to get to subparts indeed
So I guess I know them. I'm definitely not an expert.
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, lenses has nothing to do with what we are discussing here.
13:14
I agree that matching records is often confusing
@edition OK, that's a good start. Don't start now.
Pattern matching is not necessary.
It can be helpful, some times, but I'd trade pattern matching for explicit attributes support at any time
Something like obj.attr and func obj.attr creates a copy of obj where attr is modified using func.
@BartekBanachewicz You linked a mountain of shite?
13:17
@Jefffrey obj & attr %~ func
You and your damned lenses
Lenses are a fucking placeholder for something that needs to be solved.
Xeo
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz lol'd
Lenses are much more powerful than simple attribute access
@Borgleader No.
13:19
Not now. I can't get in a lenses-suck discussion right now.
@Jefffrey what you're proposing is adding a somewhat broken and limited subset of Lens to the language core, implemented by god knows who and how, just so you don't have to install the library. :P
Xeo
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz To be fair, though, what he has is not full pattern matching - he can only match on one data member (i.e. data Stuff = A T1 | B T2 | C T3 | ..., not data Stuff = A T1 T2 | B T2 T3 | ...) - not that that changes much.
(sorry for the edits)
@R.MartinhoFernandes Did you figure out how to do what you wanted?
@Jefffrey Uh that's exactly what lenses are
13:32
Anyone here using a pullup bar?
@Xeo that can be any structure in Wide
7 hours ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
An articulated TARS miniature.
Btw, fuck you @Xeo, there's no Zupfkuchen around here.
I want the old office Q_Q
What's that about soupfucken
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Haha
Apropos, I should get myself another piece
@R.MartinhoFernandes Cool :) TARS <3
13:42
Yum pâtisserie
now that I have a virtual machine, vagrant can't connect to it.
@R.MartinhoFernandes what is?
@R.MartinhoFernandes no what now o_0
@Puppy Shoudlnt Vagrant be able to spawn your VM through a Vagrantfile?
@Rerito It can spawn the VM just fine. It just can't connect to it.
@EtiennedeMartel BTW, Ice cider is killer. Too bad it's so expensive!
13:48
@Borgleader I think I'll need to pirate the movie to see all the ways it can bend and turn.
You wouldn't download a TARS
It's also a bad idea to smoke it, addictive stuff!
@CatPlusPlus I totally am. And then I'm putting up the files for download.
lol MSVC
@R.MartinhoFernandes Animated?
What?
I'm going to print it. Articulated, yes.
13:54
Oh, for print
Wait, maybe I can do it without piracy wired.com/2014/11/interstellar-droids
Hmm, missing the prone flight position.
Xeo
Xeo
Nom nom Zupfkuchen
Xeo
Xeo
You should try making it yourself!
I have been comparing the spaceships in sci-fi movies, I must admit the one used in sunshine is pretty awesome. I am not talking about the shape, but how you can generate your own oxygen, power, grow your own veges and have your own private rooms
well, if they grow their own veges I guess they can grow their own fishes too!
it would be more or less self sustaining
the ones used in europa report & Interstellar are pretty awful
Xeo
Xeo
14:07
@R.MartinhoFernandes That thing looks interesting. I might have to watch that movie.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well well
@Borgleader hehe. I somehow missed this message. Yeah. It's still helping me writing those answers. You can't "train" these inuitions enough
Of course, you could upvote the comment :)
14:23
@Xeo Watch it with great and loud sound.
Xeo
Xeo
lol
Why?
while munch on kitkat
@Xeo Because the soundtrack is awesome.
Xeo
Xeo
okay
It's actually nominated for Oscars in all music and sound categories except Original Song.
14:26
actually buy a lot of kitkat before you watch the movie just in case ... like you get really hungry and crave for a kitkat
imagine a kitkat walking in the sea
Xeo
Xeo
Still don't believe in strong typing? http://t.co/1fKIxvhfpM
lol
He could drown the cravings in beer as well
good point!
kitkat & beer that is ...
(Or do both, kitkat would make so thirsty)
14:30
I can drive an axis through the centers of the bars, but then how can I get the two-legged walk to work?
I need some ingenious mechanism.
tiny retracting axes?
That's way too complicated for a small plastic figure.
Xeo
Xeo
Good luck combining the wheel and two-legged walking into one small figure
@R.MartinhoFernandes The more I read, the more suspicious I grow about what you are trying to achieve
Xeo
Xeo
Or the crutch walk
14:32
Are you planning to do voodoo stuff using a plastic action figure?
blergh... I'm injecting some innocent d3d code into another d3d app...and when I do my drawing, the driver goes BLERGH DEVICE REMOVED
@Xeo Crutch walk and wheel work with a simple central axis.
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ye, I mean combining those with two-legged walk
What makes it toughest is that each pair of legs isn't acting together a single thicker leg.
They're slightly offset, so all four bars are active there.
A single axis through all of them doesn't get the same effect.
The inner bars are joined at the very top, but the outer ones are joined a bit below, at about screen level.
14:35
need picture to clarify
@BartekBanachewicz Ceci n'est pas une pipe.
The Treachery of Images (French: La trahison des images, 1928–29, sometimes translated as The Treason of Images) is a painting by the Belgian surrealist painter René Magritte, painted when Magritte was 30 years old. The picture shows a pipe. Below it, Magritte painted, "Ceci n'est pas une pipe.", French for "This is not a pipe." "The famous pipe. How people reproached me for it! And yet, could you stuff my pipe? No, it's just a representation, is it not? So if I had written on my picture "This is a pipe", I'd have been lying!" His statement is taken to mean that the painting itself is not a pipe...
It's not a pipe. It's a drawing of a pipe.
(It's also not a blowjob, but I don't think that's the right meaning)
this is not a message
it's a sequence of bytes interpreted by the browser
@EtiennedeMartel Only french speakers will get it
@R.MartinhoFernandes @EtiennedeMartel oh cool
@R.MartinhoFernandes <3
Also, what the fuck YouTube, Jamiroquai isn't jazz. It's, at best, funk.
@Rerito I wonder if it's used that way in France too
@Borgleader English speakers also use "pipe" to mean "blowjob"?
@EtiennedeMartel it's dangerously close to one, though
14:56
@Borgleader Of course it is.
Xeo
Xeo
@Rerito Or we non-french speakers might just infer what he means
@Rerito If you're not in France, you obviously speak English, right?
@R.MartinhoFernandes If you're in France, you're definitely not speaking English.
@Rerito ... it's not that hard to get
@EtiennedeMartel Also no longer true
Xeo
Xeo
@EtiennedeMartel Then what language has Luc been using this whole time?!
14:57
He's not in France
@sehe Don't you dare mess up my running gag.
You too, @Xeo.
@sehe Of course, Etienne provided enough context :)
Xeo
Xeo
@sehe he's not?
@Rerito Also, it's only French
Quite a few people can understand French here, in fact.
14:58
I'm not following here
It's not like it's some obscure language.
Feb 4 '13 at 14:56, by sehe
prends ça!
I have a suspicion we're dealing with a French guy
Of course but if someone starts speaking french slang I don't think there will be much people able to follow
Evidement
Xeo
Xeo
@sehe Sorry, I don't follow.
14:59
There are multiple kinds of French slang.
Xeo
Xeo
You might just be trolling / making a joke, but I don't get it
what's that french thing anyways? never heard of it
@EtiennedeMartel And I cant understand the one from Quebec of course
@Xeo I was actually looking for the time when Luc reminded me of the fact that he's not in France. Something something Canada and not even living there?
Xeo
Xeo
Last I heard, Luc was from France
15:00
@Abyx In french "tailler une pipe à quelqu'un" (litteraly "cut a pipe") = "do a bj to someone"
Xeo
Xeo
@sehe ah, ok
@Xeo Yeah. I can't find the details right now. I seem unable to retain this kind of info
Is "Danton" a reference to the character of Deus Ex?
Xeo
Xeo
no
The pun is more subtle
@sehe Emphasis in the wrong word.
15:02
Oooooh
Got it
@Xeo Indeed lol!
@Rerito That was Denton.
oh fuck
@EtiennedeMartel oh man
curious
So, they shipped Beyond Earth in an incomplete and imbalanced state (as with any Civ game since the fourth), and then they thought "you know what, let's just make a spin off of that spin off instead of working on BE".
I guess nothing's preventing them from working on both at once.
15:10
I have a win8 iso and with vmware it'll install to a VM without a product key, and with virtualbox it won't
But that does mean we won't be seeing another XCOM any time soon.
@EtiennedeMartel Time? Manpower? Money?
draw sprite <$> use lander.position <*> use lander.rotation
oh man
this line of code is fucking sexy
looks to me like fixed-function pipeline/immediate mode bullshit.
but maybe that's just appearance
15:13
@Xeo incidentally I just bought 20 huge 7-seg displays
@BartekBanachewicz if only you could write them one after the other and not use <*> and <$> :D
@BenjaminGruenbaum implicit state access? no thanks.
@Puppy we're thinking about a stateless API. Or as pure as it can reasonably get.
FFP/immediate mode is a thing specific to low-level implementation. This is a high-level API
it's really more of a pseudocode to make API decisions easier
personally I created the sprite and had it be drawn implicitly each frame
@Puppy Jefffrey is a strong opponent of making the user keep rendering objects. Registering them into a manager means a need to create a binding (can be complicated) to update them, or fiddling with their ids (terrible)
ModelView bindings are something that could be nice here, but I've no idea how to approach them yet
@BartekBanachewicz Make the manager the creating object and then register/unregister them implicitly.
user1804599
15:19
Diff the old and new game states and update the sprites accordingly.
@Puppy I (think I) got that part. What about updates?
Xeo
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz pure createLander <*> generateTerrain - I guess precedence for <$> didn't work out so you could use it twice without parens?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Because it looks cool.
user1804599
Similar to what React does to the DOM.
It's just an old clock.
Xeo
Xeo
15:20
So?
@Xeo I am not sure if I like the fact that pure and impure arguments are applied differently, if that's what you mean
fun a <$> b seems less consistent than fun <$> pure a <*> b
Xeo
Xeo
oh wait, yeah
it might have some precedence issues because I haven't obviously compiled it yet
@BartekBanachewicz You could pass it a function to call to get the position for this frame. I obviously simply used mutable state to hold the position, but that was a long time ago.
@Puppy this game uses mutable state.
15:25
is it just me, or is the default icon for windows PCs on OS X when sharing stuff a 90's CRT monitor with a BSOD on the screen
lol
Xeo
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz Nono, you're fine, I was confusing it with something else
@Puppy however, how do you manage objects that are added and removed dynamically?
user1804599
@AlexM. It is.
if draw has just a readonly view on game state, it's impossible to try accessing nonexisting entities
@рытфолд lol windows isn't that bad to deserve this
15:26
but say I have orcs :: [Orc], and an orcSprite
How do I draw that?
user1804599
foreach orc in orcs:
    draw orcSprite (position orc)
@рытфолд you need to pass the position to draw
yeah, that's one way certainly.
Whether it's forM or mapM is obviously irrelevant
@BartekBanachewicz Each Orc holds a distinct Sprite object that represents the final draw output.
Orcs are great carry on!
@Puppy so your Sprite is actually more like a refcounted SpriteHandle?
15:33
not really, because each Sprite has distinct positioning.
wait, you store positioning with the sprite?
@Puppy so it's SpriteHandle, with mutable transformation data?
user1804599
@Puppy Eww.
@AlexM. I call those instances
the SpriteHandle is an implementation detail.
15:34
so for 10000000000000 trees
you could simply load the texture data again for each Sprite if you really wanted to.
@Puppy perhaps, I just wanted to make sure I understand the idea
you'd have 10000000000000 sprites
obviously that would be dumb, but possible.
@Puppy no, it's not possible.
you'd run out of ram
15:34
depends on how many instances you have and how big the underlying texture is
cue my latest 1.3GB RAM-using code that drew a triangle
just make a sprite batch that takes in textures and outputs things
after batching things
right, well I said it would obviously be dumb.
Xeo
Xeo
A sprite references a (cutout from a) texture
but I agree it's implementation thing
what's more important is tying the transformation to it
if it's separate from your model, it forms a viewModel
so you have to sync it somehow
in a typical MVVM scenario it would be via a binding, again.
@Puppy but is that stored together with regular Model data?
doesn't that violate separation of concerns?
15:47
well, you don't strictly have to actually put the Sprite in the Orc, you could have an external map from Orc to Sprite if you wanted to.
@Puppy who would ensure the 1:1 invariant?
it's not like you can CREATE CONSTRAINT ON ORCS; they're big and green
well, who is normally responsible for rendering stuff from the model?
@Puppy I don't know what "normally" is supposed to mean in this context, but conceptually "something" takes the model state and turns it into something on the screen.
then that "something" also ensures 1:1
@Puppy so in every frame the drawing component looks at the orcs container, and for each orc, if a sprite tied to it exists it updates it, if it doesn't it creates a new one, and if any sprites are left it deletes them?
15:54
@BartekBanachewicz It might be simpler to just have the Orc accept an opaque type as a kind of RenderData object and keep it in there.
but personally I think that it may be easier to create the Sprite with a function that gets the data from the Orc directly, as then there is no need to update the Sprite.
@Puppy separation of concerns again
the concerns are properly separated if the model code cannot access the rendering data, and that's still true if the type iss opaque.
@Puppy but you still have to run the constraint, no? Separating the constraint and the update loop gives you... what exactly?
@Puppy I disagree. If a model is literred with data not relevant to its purpose, it's a strong smell of bad design.
I also think it's a bad design to have one thing split into several pieces.
and what you're ultimately ending up with is OrcModel, OrcRender, etc.
I think a good game framework design is one that doesn't look like someone's master's thesis in design patterns :(
15:59
@Puppy not really. What I'm proposing is that logic should be written as if graphics didn't exist.
@BartekBanachewicz Which is exactly what you'll get if the rendering stuff is opaque.
personally I think I had a design that I actually liked that solved this problem but I've totally forgotten it, if it was ever more than a figment.

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