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11:00
remind you of anyone?
@chmod711telkitty You're gonna make me invalidate your locust thing aren't you?
or hmm I could ask on Maths.SE
don't fall for it
also need shower, bbl @_@
didn't wanna say anything...
11:02
> A teenager was rescued after running out of toilet paper on board a Virgin train after he Tweeted the company for help.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2900208/There-s-no-toilet-roll-send-help-Teen-rescued-embarrassing-mishap-TWEETING-Virgin-Trains-awkward-handover.html
wat
@AlexM. Survival Skills: absent
Not shitting in trains skills: absent
@rightføld s/BANG_BANG_BANG/GANG/g
@rightføld lolwat
11:04
@sehe I disagree. He succeded in using social networking to get toilet paper. That's ... Awesome
But it's unrelated to survival. It's related to getting attention
user1804599
@sehe GANG_BANG
Running out of toilet paper can be bad. I've used a lot this morning. Then again, I'm not stupid enough to cram myself into public transport after a hot curry night.
...
@rightføld wait, you got tired of writing javascript and... decided to write a compiler in javascript?
11:05
@Rerito Getting attention delayed his "rescue" unnecessarily
user1804599
@gnzlbg I'll soon rewrite the compiler.
why would you use a train toilet, they're horrible
@rightføld just saying :P
@AlexM. Coach toilets are worse.
@AlexM. If you have a 5 hour long train run. You'll use them :p
11:06
I'd rather get off at the next station and buy another ticket after finding a proper toilet somewhere else
@Rerito Granted, being "rescued" might not have been the goal of the tweet. I know many teenagers who'd be out of their natural behaviour if they didn't tweet this situation
fold expressions are awesome for writing a zip iterator
the std library still feels like a mess when writing a zip iterator
@Rerito I didn't use them on a 8hr train run
also I time my shits, usually when things like this happen
I do it before leaving on a trip and can go at least 24 hours between shits
@sehe Anyway I'm just in awe before such an article because 1. the guy is stupid, 2. The dailymail found it worthy to dedicate a whole article to him
11:07
Coach toilets are apalling, especially in summer. They have next-to-no ventilation and are crammed over a large diesel engine running at high power.
@Rerito :D
@AlexM. I never shit in train toilets. But I drink a lot and thus ... You get the point :)
Coaches aren't allowed to have nice toilets?
@StackedCrooked IME, no.
10
Q: Is ++x %= 10 well-defined in C++?

kykuWhile browsing the code of some project I came across the following statement: ++x %= 10; Is this statement well defined in C++ or does it fall into the same category as a[i] = i++ ?

Fucking hell
11:13
> def ne = eq; (* TODO: FIX THIS LOL *)
I don't even
@Columbo You're late mate
At least train toilets have straight walls. I'm quite tall and, if I'm forced to use an aircraft loo, I have to conform to the fuselage shape.
@Columbo what spawns these questions
@Rerito I was in maths :/
what kind of mind produces these situations
11:13
+1 for "LasagnaScript", though
@AlexM. I would use such an expression.
@AlexM. Trolls, profs or TA's.
++x %= 10 is fine by me.
I mean, you can immediately see what it does.
yeah. mess with your brain
are you serious?
the fact that it raised the suspicion of not being well defined
11:15
ah I found a problem in my idea
is enough to prove that it's not clear at a glance
@AlexM. Yes, by beginners.
There are contexts in which i'd say *out++ = v is obvious
> beginners
if I wanted to allow not greater && not less, that implies && would have to be non-total
because of equal && not equal
11:16
> 'As soon as I saw the was no paper - I instantly thought, let's Tweet about it and make people laugh. There were a few small laughs on Twitter but nothing more. Then I sort of realised - oh no - there actually is no paper.
haha :)
@AlexM. It is clear to anyone with a decent understanding of C++ that ++x %= y is well-defined.
@Columbo giant misconception: beginners don't anticipate UB
@Columbo lol
@BartekBanachewicz sup?
11:16
well if I were writing an interpreter, that's where I'd produce an error, I suppose
@sehe After being on SO? lol?
And then you can wank about being so clever
18 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
I wonder if you could make it so that an expression (not lt && not gt) == eq
@CatPlusPlus wtf
@Columbo Ah. I didn't know that "being on SO" magically inflicts knowledge/experience on people
11:17
@CatPlusPlus I'm not struck by this, does this mean I'm clever and I can wank too ?
@Columbo not sure what you're trying to say
I am probably making some idiotic mistake in this approach @Ben and wanted you to point it out ;)
@Columbo It's clear to anyone (with a decent understanding) that's this is unnecessarily conflated code.
@BartekBanachewicz I'm not sure I understand that statement. Context?
the version that would make it clear to anyone on this planet that it's well defined only takes one statement more
11:17
It's missing the end of the sentence :P
I don't see the point in these things
@sehe No, but after so many Q/As about sequence points and undefined behavior, I expect people to be quite careful with such expressions.
Anyway, going to lunch brb
yes, careful as in not using them
@AlexM. Yes, and this code is not his (the TE's) but someone elses.
11:18
@Columbo Yeah - as in 'never use them'.
@BenjaminGruenbaum just a random thought. If I had a program that produced values a and b of type EqualityRelation, could the same program infer that their existence produces equality if, i.e., a == not Less and b == not Greater. (I'm lost in my own ideas)
thank god nobody at my workplace felt like being clever with tricks like those
I never found artifacts like that so far
HOHOH I KNOW ALL LITTLE SEQUENCING RULES
@Columbo hehehe. Iffff they've seen'em. Be careful assuming smart behaviour in herds. The collective may seem to operate intelligently, but the individual specimens have fairly trivial agendas
@BartekBanachewicz there is a notion called a "total order", if you can compare every two elements than yes.
11:19
@AlexM. I would immediately fire anyone writing such crap for me.
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz You can do this :v
user1804599
implement Logical for Function {
    def not(f)(x) = !f(x);
    def and(f, g)(x) = f(x) && g(x);
    def or(f, g)(x) = f(x) || g(x);
}
user1804599
But it seems quite silly to do such a thing.
@BartekBanachewicz there are many cases where you have types where it's possible that neither A > B nor B < A but they're not equal.
@Columbo Of course. But the assumption is that anyone even reads questions like that. I posit that the people who answer, are the prime members of the audience for questions.
The people that ask questions, usually just ask. (Statistically)
11:20
welp, that makes me think about Ord
@BartekBanachewicz let's take it back a notch - an order is a binary relation: If you take the set A cross the set B (that is, all the pairs (a,b) where a is from A and B is from B) then a relation is a subset of it.
For example in the set {1, 2, 3} cross itself the equality relation is {(1,1), (2,2), (3,3)} and the common "is greater than" relation is {(1,2),(2,3),(1,3)}
@sehe Stop being smart, sehe
@BenjaminGruenbaum intuitive understanding would lead me to believe that A x A \ (Greater(A x A) u Less (A x A)) == Equal(A x A)
11:24
@BartekBanachewicz Now a total order is a relation that holds 3 things (for example >= is an order) - it has to be antisymmetric, total, and transitive. Let's go through those one by one: antisymmetry is sort of the very property you were speaking of - it means that if a<=b and b<=a then a==b. Transitivity means that if a<=b and b<=c than a<=c, totality means that for every pair (a,b) in the original cross product either a<=b or b<=a.
ITT I'm terribly bad at set theory
Naa, you were actually fine.
Usually we use >= but it's also possible to define ordering with >. Antisymmetry becomes dichotomic (splits into two) saying instead either a<b or b<a but never both, totality and transitivity remain the same.
user1804599
ok I'm making division by zero an error instead of infinity fuck you javacrypt
@rightføld floating point, or integer?
@BartekBanachewicz you're in a fine set tere
11:26
@rightføld that's "fuck you floating point standard", it's not JS in particular.
user1804599
Fuck whatever JS does in that regard.
@rightføld yeah it's full retard that 1/0 is infinity, it was decided for performance reasons IIRC and is completely invalid here.
@rightføld now this/that post has three stars, double confirmed.
@BartekBanachewicz so yeah, by that definition it is enough to define > and = and that would be enough to define < and if it's total you can define > alone and deduce it by that if the ordering is total.
user1804599
You can opt out using /// instead of / and %%% instead of % anyway.
11:27
And by confirming it once more, it would be triple confirmed, which confirms it further, and this logic can be that self enforcing cofirmation
If neither a>b nor` b>a` then a = b, that works for everything that is totally ordered - note there are cases where you can partially order a type but it's not a total ordering, for example set containment.
I should have stayed in bed.
[1..5] < [1..6] and [1...6] < [1...9] but it's not true that [2..5] < [8...100], if you check the original order axioms they all hold except for totality.
Now I have to go back to writing horrible JavaScript + WordPress code. Wish me a swift death.
:)
thanks for explanations, much appreciated
Also wtf that programmers.se answer is at +131 there is a reason they don't take these people seriously.
Any time.
11:31
what answer?
@cat do form plz
Everyone downvote it plz.
So the poor behavior of == is consistent with the poor behavior of >= ? Great, now I wish there was a >==... — Eldritch Conundrum 22 hours ago
lol
I should have asked people to fill out some random string and then ping me that strin to confirm who is who
There's just not honour amounts twats
I wasn't aware that you could do this. — Jon Snow 35 mins ago
11:33
You already know my answer though
@JonSnow You know nothing. — Bartek Banachewicz 17 secs ago
But there you go
Now I feel bad.
@CatPlusPlus I hoped it would have changed :(
@thecoshman lel
11:34
LoungePolls needs to be written
Actually Phabricator has something for simple polls
I can participate under 3-clause BLPPL
Bartek Lounge Project Participation License
clause one, your stay the fuck away with this shit
the democratic republic of the C++ lounge
now with polls
1) It's done in one sprint
2) ThePhD is banned
3) It's in Haskell
btw, where's ThePhD
haven't seen him in a long time
11:37
banned, duh.
really?
he's popping in time to time
@AlexM. whoosh
1) not worth while or sprints are too long
2) ...
3) don't be stupid
user1804599
What is bad about numeric type class hierarchy in Haskell again?
it's in Haskell
11:39
while we're at it, @Puppy have you seen this?
(In LoC)
Parser: 143
Lexer: 36
JIT: 59
Codegen: 170 + 277
AST def: 19
of course it's much simpler than Wide or C++, but still... funky
@R.MartinhoFernandes wasn't sure what to do... so went a bit silly :S
Xeo
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus Suckah
@BartekBanachewicz lol
@rightføld Could more fine-grained
@BartekBanachewicz There isn't even a section for semantic analysis, which is the primary component.
I've seen the original Kaleidoscope tutorials.
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus In what aspects?
11:52
by the colleague
bah
spin up new VM -> corrupted input becomes Jesus input and gives super great output.
I hate this component so much.
Xeo
Xeo
@rightføld Could be based on algebraic stuff. Rings, Groups, Fields, etc
@StackedCrooked looks microsoft C++ish
why didn't java have lambdas sooner
@StackedCrooked saw # crap, nope
11:57
so annoying
Why didn't C++ have modules sooner
Oh wait
I wanted to do some partial application
Because they didn't get to it, simple as that
user1804599
@Xeo OK
the cruft that I have to deal with to filter a list using predicates with a variable number of arguments is so huge that it's easier to copy/paste filtering functions and just change the conditions inside :\
I sure as hell won't start spawning classes with extra arguments passed in ctors
12:02
Lambdas are just a sugar for that
an important useful sugar
but they're not just a sugar for that if your language does not permit referencing locals ordinarily but does in lambdas.
BTW @LightnessRacesinOrbit you were mentioned in SE blog about Winter Bash ending
ah he commented there
so prolly saw it, too
makes sense doesn't it
12:13
@BartekBanachewicz not the first year
@BartekBanachewicz I can't find any reference to him in that post.
> As last year, the hats were illustrated by Elias Stein. I hope you enjoyed his work as much as we did. Thanks Elias!
Novices. They didn't write http:// in the link
fucking apple making stupid power adapters or whatever they are called
third one now
> It’s Summer Bash for South America!
haha
can't believe I didn't think of this angle
12:16
In fact, thinking about it, isn't it Summer Bash for 50% of the Earth...? — Lightness Races in Orbit 6 secs ago
:D
so much discrimination on SE
it makes me sick
go LRiO, bring justice to them!
user1804599
Having == have higher precedence than & seems incredibly silly.
@rightføld IIRC @LightnessRacesinOrbit has a blog post about this
user1804599
Bitwise operations don't make sense on Booleans.
user1804599
12:24
Softjare Waces in Orbit?
Social Justice Warrior in Orbit
@Columbo Oh. Sorry.
@BartekBanachewicz he has been on edge for a month and you suppose he might forget to check the final standings and honorable mentions?
@CatPlusPlus Or even sooner than that
12:30
No upvotes? Putting work into SO answers doesn't pay out it seems.
I fear that Cat was right.
@Columbo Don't become another sehe, pls.
You should be doing this for the community, not the rep.
@Jefffrey Yes, but my answer is at the very bottom, so no one will see it.
logic
Those that want to see, will see.
You did your job.
@Jefffrey Well, if that's right, okay then
> for the community
user1804599
12:34
woooo arithmetic
I do it in pursuit of answers good enough to put on my online profiles
@Jefffrey Wait, I once made my answer a community wiki and lost 10 potential rep because of that! Am I noble or what
I'm an evil bastard
@Columbo Yeah, cutie. You are :D
@Jefffrey smooth
12:35
You are my noble C++ prince.
jesus, another club drops Evans due to "threats" from various sponsors and even threats to club board members' families
what the hell is wrong with people
everybody wants to be judge and jury
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Very much
@Jefffrey one sehe is enough, indeed
he shagged a bird who turned out to be very drunk and lost her memories of the night. he didn't chase her down a dark alley and force himself on her. there is an open appeal for what to me looks like a ridiculous conviction. and yet the entire football world is treating him like a total leper and he can't get any work whatsoever. since when do sponsors have jury power, after a trial and sentence served at that? sigh.
two sehes would probably be unbearable
10
ba dum tschhh
12:37
I love how they chose to call it [expr.ass] instead of [expr.assign] or something
@AlexM. ISYWDT
@AlexM. you are the polar opposite of funny
-or-
two sehes would be the polar opposite of bearable
take your pick ;p
@LightnessRacesinOrbit and I bearly even got started
@AlexM. Anonymous classes are closures also btw
You don't need to use ctor arguments
@AlexM. it really gives you paws doesn't it
less -R is cool
12:41
seems like I'm going to be forced to learn Puppet or Vagrant or something for work.
why forced?
Vagrant is quite useful, I suppose
because the project I'm working on has a need to install a shitload of virtual machines and install some stuff on them and test them automatically.
user1804599
I need a reStructuredText server.
However will you live using tools and not doing shit manually
@LightnessRacesinOrbit it's not a problem since I can get my bearings pretty quickly
@CatPlusPlus you're right, I didn't think of that
let's see if I can use them here...
12:44
@CatPlusPlus The installation stuff for this particular piece of software doesn't come with an automated installer.
If you can do it manually, you can automate it
I thought we weren't in Lounge<Factorio>
also because I didn't know what was required.
when is multiplayer coming out :|
12:45
lol apple conversion
I want to host an epic 12-people factorio game
$79 == €79
@BartekBanachewicz "Multiplayer" as in "playboy"?
good job apple
@Columbo as in multiple players, wtf
@Columbo do you also confuse GameBoy with Playboy?
12:46
@AlexM. you're clawing at straws now
@BartekBanachewicz Not quite, but do you confuse bad word play with seriousness :P
user1804599
Oh nice I don't even have to hit refresh.
is cosh drunk or something
so
std::graphics2d
what's the state of it?
Are we going to get window handling too?
it's ded
it's not gonna happen
it's a no-go
12:54
std::gamedev
@BartekBanachewicz that seems like a terrible idea
everything and the kitchen sink mentality
@Jefffrey he probably meant haiku
12:56
@BartekBanachewicz don't be absurd
@Pris having thousands of different libraries with thousands of different issues seems like a great idea instead
1 min ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@Pris why?
@BartekBanachewicz if I need to explain it to you then you will not understand
3
though i guess i see some long term value in trying to push out a standard way of creating windows and doing graphics
I also don't have time
12:57
@LightnessRacesinOrbit that's the stupidest thing I've read all week
@LightnessRacesinOrbit the star I gave you for that is pure gold, just like what you wrote
starred
@Jefffrey you must read a lot of clever stuff
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I doubt so. I'm in here all day.
12:58
2
Q: Standardize 2D/3D Vector / Coordinate Class

MikeMBQuestion This is something that's bugging me for some time now, but I couldn't find a definitive answer for it: Is anyone aware of a proposal to introduce a standard 2D and/or 3D Vector (a struct with x,y and z members) to the STL? If not, is there a realistic way to get such a class into ...

related
@Jefffrey I dont think there's a way to make a thing like graphics reasonably generic
also considering the fact that I automatically read everything I write...
@Pris I'm talking about windows and input handling really
for graphics there's opengl already
and for audio there's openal
inb4 OpenGL is low-level crap noone is able to use
@BartekBanachewicz I remember sutter saying something about a cairo wrapper

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