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10:00
Oh. #boredom meets #spain
user1804599
@sehe :P
user1804599
Ok, I decided to have no bitwise operators.
@sehe I'm not. But, as funny, childish and weird it might sound, my experience tells me that it's better to introduce changes to big codebases in a gradual way, and for(:) makes it trivial to 1:1 change old loops using huge iterator definitions which are pretty common here
user1804599
They'll just be functions instead.
Christianity 2020: Thou shalt not hack computer systems; thou shalt not steal thy neighbour's WiFi
10:01
so that transition is a no-brainer, and if I have more time I rewrite stuff to regular algorithms
user1804599
@Puppy Good thing 1) I'm not a christian and 2) it's 2015.
@BartekBanachewicz mmm. I like ranged for. A lot. But that reasoning coming from you seems... inconsistent
altough frankly, as much as I am anti-loops, the fact that <algorithm> doesn't have range-based functions makes using it pretty annoying
user1804599
Changing loops doesn't really have to be trivial.
user1804599
You don't do it until you encounter an old loop.
10:02
@sehe it might just be that I'm writing worse code at work because of reasons
@BartekBanachewicz Let me guess. Company policy disallows Boost :)
user1804599
And in a good codebase you use a lot of <algorithm> and a little for.
@sehe Not really. But we don't use it here, and I would find it hard to justify bringing it over.
@BartekBanachewicz Hey. Is that an admission of humanity? Are you actually ready to admit you're one of us?
user1804599
@StackedCrooked can't use lambda there.
10:03
@BartekBanachewicz I don't find it hard to justify #include <boost/range/algorithm.hpp> anywhen
@sehe not when I'm writing Haskell ;>
@rightføld AH. You solved the mystery
then I'm a cognitive, cold, neural network optimized at solving problems of humanity
2 hours ago, by StackedCrooked
decltype([]{}) won't compile
@sehe that implies you have it available.
10:04
@rightføld Do you seen the underscore now?
user1804599
No.
user1804599
Ok time to implement comparison, numeric, concatenation and subscription operators, if statements and : and then I can rewrite my compiler.
@BartekBanachewicz How can you not? It's not like it's hard to lug around a zip with some headers.
I'm starting to understand why you don't see the boon in Linux. Because this pretty much implies you won't find managing your dotfiles/sysconfig practical either o.O ?
@rightføld Watch closer
8 hours ago, by StackedCrooked
Hana generates unique types with decltype_([]{}).
user1804599
@sehe Omg! How to increase C++ compilation speeds: have the compiler read CAR files.
user1804599
@sehe I still don't see any underscores.
user1804599
10:06
It just says decltype([]{}).
lol
No it doesn't.
user1804599
Here I'll copy and paste it: decltype([]{}).
It says decltype_([]{}).
@rightføld :D Spain is getting to yo' brain
user1804599
@Griwes Exactly: decltype([]{})
10:07
decltype_, not decltype.
@sehe I've recently started approaching the understanding of the topic of friction to much deeper extent, I believe. My direct supervisor here isn't a programmer at all; he understand the development tradeoffs though and encourages me to take intelligent decions about quality/speed of development. Looking for the most efficient solution instead of a most... beautiful? good? one makes me take the nonfunctional approach, especially when I'm just modifying code, not writing it from scratch.
inb4 hunter2
user1804599
@Griwes What? "decltype, not decltype" makes no sense.
trollfold
@rightføld Do you want me to screenshot it for you?
10:07
in my defense, the simple tools I write are way more idiomatic.
is @rightføld trolling or what
user1804599
@Griwes Nah, I already know you're smoking some very bad stuff.
Polish connection
user1804599
My religion says it's spelled "decltype" and if you claim otherwise then you're a racist and I'm extremely offended.
like I said, trollfold
10:08
Good boy. Have a cookie.
user1804599
Bjarnehu akbar.
@sehe cloud storage certainly makes things like vim config files much easier to manage. But then again, my cygwin for work stuffs here is also configured in the exactly same way, my haskell projects carry everything they need with them, and other than that I don't care that much.
Lose the period
@BartekBanachewicz I don't use cloud storage for this. (Unless my VPS counts)
user1804599
10:10
@sehe Then they'll think I'm pregnant and they'll stone me to death.
@sehe it kinda does for me
weaselword density > 50% :)
Cloud doesn't necessarily imply SaaS for me
am I wrong in that?
user1804599
No.
user1804599
"Cloud" means everything you want it to mean, just like "reactive" and "scale."
10:11
@BartekBanachewicz Cloud storage is cloud storage. VPS is just colocation. If it happens to be cloud backed, that's unobservable detail
I have a great idea to catch the terrorists: hunting them would cost too much money, so why bother. Set up a few organizations, doing all the things terrorists detest (and claim to have no tie with the government because on the surface the governments are trying to shut them down too), then lure terrorist to attack, as soon as terrorists show up, bingo!
Let's stick to "storage available from everywhere you need it" then
@rightføld and dynamically typed
because that's the essence of it
user1804599
@sehe LasagnaScript is dynamically typed.
user1804599
10:11
Ruby is dynamically hyped.
Incidentally, a pendrive you carry on yourself could also count
@BartekBanachewicz I don't use it in that sense. I only access my VPS from home.
@BartekBanachewicz Is what I actually use if I need it
user1804599
I never thought how IDisposable would make sense in JavaScript, but yesterday I realised it's useful in Node.js and with RxJS.
@chmod711telkitty You have a fairly large brain mass, I suspect
2
couldn't find the code someone had been working on for the last two months. turns out they don't bother using SVN when left to their own devices. senior developer. what.
now that I've carefully nudged them into doing so, here's the latest commit msg:
Fix for UB behaviour observed upon startup
10:13
...
@LightnessRacesinOrbit there's so much wrong in this
user1804599
@BartekBanachewiczhow is it going.
user1804599
it's been a long time
how any programmer can think messily enough to say that is beyond me :(
@rightføld since what
user1804599
10:14
Since you left.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit also, cough git cough
@sehe You know, rat traps work the same way
@BartekBanachewicz fuck git
@rightføld yes, but I've also came back
hyped up beyond belief
user1804599
10:14
HURRAY
@LightnessRacesinOrbit w/e DVCS then
lol
user1804599
YOU CAN NEVER LEAVE
there is literally zero reason for us to change to a DVCS
@BartekBanachewicz You came on his back?
user1804599
10:15
Now you left and came back three times. Half Life 3 confirmed.
3
@LightnessRacesinOrbit except
2 mins ago, by Lightness Races in Orbit
couldn't find the code someone had been working on for the last two months. turns out they don't bother using SVN when left to their own devices. senior developer. what.
changing version control systems doesn't help with the situation that developers aren't using version control systems
of course you'll say it's a human problem yeah
user1804599
PEBKAC
because it is...
10:16
but then again, I can't agree that it's disconnected from the tools you use
good tools influence the workers
not these workers
git makes it way easier to work on something without publishing it to server, but still retaining the properly versioned codebase
also you've yet to demonstrate that a DVCS is "good" whereas SVN is "bad"
@BartekBanachewicz I don't see the relevance. These people work in an office. Publishing to server is as easy as saving to hard disk.
10:17
I hate when I want to deliver a punchline, and spend 5 minutes (and counting) thinking of that English word... :(
if only they could handle files and directories correctly
It's just outright laziness not to have created a new module for the new code and committed to a branch every day. The choice of tool has absolutely nothing to do with it
IIRC SVN doesn't really support branches, no?
If anything, a DVCS is worse because it encourages you to keep your changes local until you're completely done, no? The whole idea is that the changes should be available to all on a regular basis. What if the guy dies in a car crash? What if his laptop is stolen overnight? Fucked.
@BartekBanachewicz lolwut?!
user1804599
Ok so shall I compile { use x = a; foo(x); bar(x); } to var x = a; try { foo(x); bar(x); } finally { $lasagnascript$dispose(x); }.
user1804599
10:18
Async code again makes everything more terrible.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit from what I remember they're much less natural to use than git branches
user1804599
I could make it work with do notation I suppose.
@sehe What a hip-hopish word isn't it ?
@Puppy quick, if you are conservative with expenses and do a lot with the minimum amount of resources, you're said to be ....-ive [can't think of the word in dots]
@LightnessRacesinOrbit in theory yes and no... Centralised VCS often let you lock files
10:18
@BartekBanachewicz None of this is telling me why switching to git will help the situation
that's a pretty dumb way of working
@LightnessRacesinOrbit git makes it easier to prepare your changes to be pushed to the remote easier, IMHO
it doesn't mean keeping everything locally until you finish
@BartekBanachewicz Easier than right-clicking in the directory and pressing the "Commit" button?
it means keeping everything locally as long as you wish to
@BartekBanachewicz Right, which in this guy's case means two months. The tool used is entirely irrelevant.
10:19
I remember once when I worked in a company that use such system. I worker left on holidays and left a few files locked.
So 2015's flamewar will be on git vs SVN ?
No
@LightnessRacesinOrbit maybe if he had used git he wouldn't be so reluctant to commit at least locally
No, that was 5 years ago
@BartekBanachewicz Of what use to the rest of the team is committing locally?
He's already "committing locally" (File->Save) and that's not particularly helpful for the rest of us
Xeo
Xeo
10:21
VS, why are you not showing me the value of this exception object.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit you can commit and merge branch when the centralised server is down
@LightnessRacesinOrbit that's not commiting
Xeo
Xeo
Whyyy
o.O
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix The centralised server is never down. The centralised server is where everybody else gets the code from.
until the project is versioned, it's not really being properly developed
user1804599
10:21
@Puppy how is your extern "C" syntax in Wide?
Committing to your own laptop is COMPLETELY POINTLESS for the rest of the team
come on guys this is not hard
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Unless when your datacenter is in fire (real life scenario)
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Agreed. But it's useful to you, to keep track of your personal code history
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix lol "datacenter"?
dude the server is in a room next door
@LightnessRacesinOrbit what would you lose if you moved from SVN to git?
10:22
our server was in a datacenter and a fire started in the datacenter. Don't ask me how
except the time for migration, that is?
@Rerito Yes but I don't give a flying fuck about that in a conversation about the problem that a developer is not committing changes to central version control and therefore everything he's been working on could simply be lost
@BartekBanachewicz But with git people would try to use --force!!!!111111
@BartekBanachewicz That's not the good question to ask. Im with LRiO here
Also, I work remotely from home so server is far from me at the moment anyway
If I had to have 100% access to the remote server, I couldn't always commit and thats why DVCS are nice
10:23
@BartekBanachewicz A fuckton of time (which is money), a learning curve for everybody, every single one of our established tools that we're used to and happy with, the ability to say we abide by common sense in deciding what to do with company time, ...
and the fact that it would gain us absolutely nothing, as aforementioned
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Just stating that as I remembered the webdev I met who was using "copy/paste file" as a VCS :')
@LightnessRacesinOrbit that's actually debatable.
@Rerito :D
@BartekBanachewicz you can debate it all you like but it's still true
that's your opinion.
this isn't some open source project with 20,000 people working on it around the world
10:24
ITT people still think SVN is any good
this is a team of 6 people working in a place
@Griwes we use SVN at work
user1804599
99% of webdevs use Control+Z as VCS, and they work directly on the production servers.
Directly on the production server !!! That one really killed me
@BartekBanachewicz So do we.
10:25
@BartekBanachewicz yes, it is, and being an expert and a senior developer on the team who intimately knows how we work, my opinion is somewhat important
@Rerito also, the fact that commits are more likely to be well-factored when pushed central is significant /cc self-chosen deaf girl
@Griwes it works well.
I don't see any problems with SVN.
So yes, it's still good.
But there are multiple unofficial gitlab instances that people use whenever needing to do something sanely.
the only benefit I've ever heard you say about git is that "it's decentralised", but you can never explain to me how this is useful for me in any way whatsoever
@sehe Yes, I like git in that sense. I work locally and refactor my history to give it more sense before comitting to central repo :)
10:26
when connectivity is guaranteed
@BartekBanachewicz I wouldn't say that SVN sucks but you can't branch at will on svn and merge code using code reviews in a sane way
So... you don't allow working remotely?
@Rerito And that would be impossible had the coworker not actually made those "USELESS!!!11!" local commits
I'm working remotely right now. Never had connectivity problems in 5 years. If I did, version control would be the least of my issues.
10:26
Yeah. Like you always have internet connection.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit You're too deaf to hear my arguments. Sorry.
@Rerito rebasing is nice
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix we don't hold code on our SVN
user1804599
Holly shit 11 rep today.
user1804599
10:27
on my overrated RTFM answer
Because I don't live in a backwater country. Again, if I lose internet, I can't work/run my code anyway (due to its nature), so version control is not the problem then
And, if the actual dev server went down in a fire, we'd have massively more concerns than not being able to commit a change to code tomorrow. In fact nobody would be writing code - they'd be restoring on to a new server from backups.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit certainly. But it shouldn't make you think your opinion here is a tiny bit more important because of that, no offense :). I realize that in your company the cost of migration could outweight the benefits. However, I think that you're kind of trying to justify your choice here by being a bit closed to pro-dvcs argumentation.
std::get<std::integral_constant> is not supported :(
whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
In la-la-land all your personal preferences can magically also be optimal.
Because, that's how they roll in la-la-land. You can even have eternal and never failing internet connections. And flawless commit history. That always green-bars. And a root beer that isn't smelly!
@BartekBanachewicz I'm not closed to pro-DVCS "argumentation", it's just that you haven't actually made any yet.
10:28
we're not going to respect you less if you admit you were wrong about git, FTR
lolwut
that's a wonderful way to argue
@sehe those useless local commits often are the the ones that saves you time if you fuck something up. You can squash them later or remove them before pushing
@LightnessRacesinOrbit that was made as a friendly comment
user1804599
Tumblr should use gifv.
"you may admit I am right and you are wrong, even though I haven't explained why you are wrong or ever been able to defend my arguments, and we won't think less of you :)" not patronising or illogical at all
10:29
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix rebase -i yayyyy
you can safely ignore it if you choose so, because it's certainly not an argument
@BartekBanachewicz doesn't make it any more logical
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix E.g. That's sloppy, but it's one of the possibilities that don't exist in SVN
@BartekBanachewicz glad you're back
user1804599
Then they can get rid of the GIF file size limit.
10:29
@rightføld Not really
@rightføld They can make a GIFV file size limit that's larger than the GIF file size limit, but I don't see how switching to GIFV has anything to do with the GIF file size limit.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Still too much plonk then. Go away if you can't participate in the room properly
@sehe exactly, that's one thing I don't like about SVN you don't really have control on the code you're pushing.. If you commit something then it's gone. If someone commit something, then you'll have conflicts once you want to commit. In git. If you work on your own branch conflicts rarely happens
I don't see the point here. @LightnessRacesinOrbit you are used to SVN and you use it the right way. It fulfills your needs. Others prefer git because of their mindset/customs/reasons.
Similarly one could argue git stash is sloppy
2 mins ago, by Lightness Races in Orbit
@BartekBanachewicz glad you're back
10:32
Where is the argument ?
^ Wonderful. Disguising the ad-hominem as a good old backstabbing Judas kiss.
I think I'm going to flee this place because it's dreadful putting up with the passive aggression with no means to even be heard.
user1804599
@Rerito Just find x: foo(x)
@rightføld Dat punchline !
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix well yes it's easy not to conflict with yourself.
user1804599
poncholine
10:33
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix the whole point though is to de-conflict with other people (you know, guys? other people?) early to make life easier in the long run
@Rerito Nobody's made one yet
all I've heard is "you should use DVCS instead because I like it and it works for me and then your developer wouldn't have failed to commit anything to central version control for two months"
user1804599
Sometimes I imagine Puppy being Cartman.
"and if you don't agree with me then coochie coochie coo don't worry about it mate I will still accept you even though you are wrong :)"
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Conflicts still happen. You mean, if you actually /require/ concurrent revisioning of same resources, you can make merges more infrequent? Meh. I don't think that is a clear benefit
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Oh. You'll be fueling from that for weeks, I feel. That is, until some other fine target crops up. (Like, for example you spotting this message in transcript)
Thinking about all those military inventions, I could not but ask: why do we devote our best technologies to kill each other?
@sehe not exactly, you can create multiple branch which isolate the work of people. Once a feature is done, merge it to the central branch that is used for release for exemple. When you merge the branches conflicts might happen but as work is often isolated while you're working nothing bothers you.
10:36
@sehe Is that the reason why you chose a facepalm polar bear as an avatar ? :p
before merging, a branch can be rebased on the master branch to make sure no conflicts will happen during merge
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I don't see where local branches inherently reduce need for merging
@Rerito Nope. I thought this was cute, at the time. :facepalm:
it also help having unstable code not merged into master which means that unstable code from coworkers won't mess with your own code
@rightføld What "extern C" syntax? I don't believe I possess any.
user1804599
YKWIM
10:39
not really.
user1804599
The Wide equivalent of it, you fool.
what semantics are you looking for?
user1804599
Calling functions defined in C code.
user1804599
Do you have to put them in a header file?
I use Clang for that.
user1804599
10:40
What if you want to define a Wide function so it can be called from C?
you can set the export name of a function in an attribute.
user1804599
Oh neat.
hmm
that's actually not going to be enough because of ABI stuff.
When reading "Clang", I always picture a Goblin in a mech making noises Clang Clang
you probably need to have a C declaration and then export it as that.
user1804599
10:42
@Rerito Clamps
in fact I'm not sure if I support exporting raw names anymore
@chmod711telkitty Competition is a powerful driver
@rightføld: So, in short, he has no clue after all.
user1804599
@Puppy Can you convert capturing Wide functions into function pointers for interop?
currently you can't convert any Wide functions.
that will probably change at some point
user1804599
Nice.
10:44
but it's not a high priority for me
belly rumbling ;(
@LightnessRacesinOrbit powerful drive to make people do stupid things
user1804599
ok so time to implement comparison ops and concat
user1804599
so boring
@chmod711telkitty such as inventing the internet
10:46
@chmod711telkitty erm. we devote our best technologies to surviving (cf. Darwin). This includes (irrational) defenses, and due to sociological/psychological reason this includes a focus on powerful offense systems.
It's not a focus on killing. It's a focus on showing surpemacy so you don't need to fight, or challenging supremacy so you might alter the status quo
really? because terrorists did not stop attacking societies that are much more advanced then their own
@chmod711telkitty There are many examples of technology outbursts during wars that have later been great for mankind. I wouldn't say "stupid things"
like nuclear bombs
Yes, because nuclear bombs lead to nuclear power plants
superb isn't it, create a weapon that could wipe the whole human race out before design a possible solution to get away from it
10:50
@chmod711telkitty I think you missed the message
(irrational)
People and society needs incentive for change.
Fear is a powerful incentive
what you guys are telling me is like saying it would be great to have a locust infestation because even though all the crops would be gone & there would be little harvest, it would be great because we can just eat the locusts
A nuclear bomb is not a stupid thing, at that time it was a science masterpiece. Now if some nutjobs got their hand on a nuke I would be worried because they (not the bomb) are stupid
I'm constantly amazed by telkitty's ability to misrepresent what everyone is trying to tell
7
inb4 the irony
@chmod711telkitty No. What we are saying is more like "don't make ridiculous analogies pretending to make a point you didn't properly think over yourself".
We are not your online co-processors.
10:52
@BartekBanachewicz ;p
@Rerito Like the US military?
D'oh
Y'know it seems borderline racist if they chose to make a world-record-breaking Naan bread based on the lead firefighter being called Dave Curry
@BartekBanachewicz No. With you it happens accidentally. Clouded by emotion. With the Kitty it happens when she thinks she's not trolling. I.e. when she's trying to have a rational discussion. But failing.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Didn't notice at first glance. Lol
user1804599
Hmm, would it make sense to make ! overloadable?
10:55
And I could invalidate the locust metaphor but I'm too lazy to do it
user1804599
What else could be logically negatable than Booleans?
user1804599
Predicates in some logic library I guess.
@rightføld not LT = GE, not GT = LE, not LE = GT, not GE = LT
do i need a wrapper like

```c++
template<class T, T N, class Other>
auto get_ic(std::integral_constant<T, N>, Other&& o) {
return std::get<N>(std::forward<Other>(o));
}
```

to have a get that supports integral constants?
user1804599
10:58
I could require just implementing NAND and infer everything else. XD
Just because you can not comprehend something it does not make it trolling - if I were to tell you I could talk to you across the global instantly 200 years ago, you would think I would be either mad or trolling. But truth is that maybe, just maybe you lack imagination/power to abstract? :p
I wonder if you could make it so that an expression (not lt && not gt) == eq
@chmod711telkitty Another baseless analogy
@BenjaminGruenbaum I need you for a sec.
@Rerito Oh. Missed opportunity to cite depletion of margin capacities

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