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19:01
@EtiennedeMartel You obviously aren't wearing your tinfoil hat, so you're under Gates's evil mind control.
19:15
Is it me or the syntax initializing setup/regions makes no sense?
@Borgleader You mean C99 designated initializers?
@milleniumbug Oh, that's a thing? TIL
user1804599
@StackedCrooked fuck the poor
@milleniumbug still though he seems to be initializing a pointer with a non pointer object?
4
Q: Was Arroway dreaming or did she travel to Vega (in the movie Contact)?

William D. EdwardsIn the film Contact, after building the giant machine on Hokkaido, Arroway 'travels' to Vega, landing at the beach where her father is. However, the capsule never left earth. It's not clear if Arroway had a dream, or that it really happened (as 18 hours of noise was recorded, which is 1 second o...

some people are just STUPID
user1804599
19:18
Designated initialisers is good.
user1804599
They're the one language extension that I use.
Give me movies or tv series to watch
@Borgleader Yes, there's something wrong here.
user1804599
@Jefffrey Erlang: The Movie
@Jefffrey Agent Carter started last night
19:21
@Borgleader More specifically it's the combination of designated initializers and compound literals.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Fuck this shit. I am supposed to be productive this month.
Nov 4 '14 at 21:55, by Jefffrey
@rightføld already watched
user1804599
@Jefffrey Office Space
You are being repetitive.
user1804599
It's a good movie. vOv
19:21
No, it's not.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit You watched it?
user1804599
OK :(
I think I watched the trailer.
@Jefffrey Soon
Like, in 20 minutes' time or so. Dinner's nearly ready, see
A parent class without any destructor defined will have a virtual destructor generated by the compiler, right?
user1804599
What is a parent class?
19:26
@rightføld A base class.
@caps Wrong!
user1804599
Destructors are never virtual by default.
How are the results of the unconference poll?
user1804599
You have to explicitly declare them as being virtual.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit And if I use inheritance, I need a virtual destructor no matter what? So if I use inheritance then I must define a virtual destructor for the base class, even if the generated one would have (aside from virtual) been acceptable?
@caps No....
What book are you using? I had no idea you were so totally clueless :(
You do not "need" virtual anything for inheritance.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Haha, I am not using a book. I just could not remember the specifics of how this worked.
@rightføld Thanksfully.
user1804599
@Jefffrey No, it's absolutely retarded.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I thought that base classes needed to have virtual destructors or their members wouldn't be destroyed, thanks to name hiding? Or is that only when the destructor needs to do something "custom" like manually delete heap-allocated memory?
6
I pray to God everyday for destructors to never be virtual.
19:29
@caps Total nonsense.
user1804599
No. Fuck God.
A virtual destructor allows you to safely destroy a Derived instance through a pointer-to-Base. That's it.
I never use inheritance these days, so...
user1804599
Inheritance these days.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Ah, so that would be when I call delete on a pointer-to-Base then?
Yeah, that's right.
user1804599
Because if it's not a pointer to base then it IS-A base.
3
4272
Q: The Definitive C++ Book Guide and List

grepsedawkThis question attempts to collect the few pearls among the dozens of bad C++ books that are published every year. Unlike many other programming languages, which are often picked up on the go from tutorials found on the Internet, few are able to quickly pick up C++ without studying a well-written...

@rightføld you get a salary increase if God is of a different race than yours
what's an IS-A base
user1804599
@AlexM. No, you go to hell.
as opposed to what
19:31
It's silly to declare a language to be the best one. But I kinda feel the same :)
@rightføld I am not aware of having sex with deities implying trips to hell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit base my_base_object; //this is a stack-allocated base object--it is not an object derived from base
@caps Oh, well, yes, insomuch as in a simple two-level inheritance heirarchy the only way to have this need of a virtual destructor would be with a reference or pointer, and if you have a value of type Base then it really is a Base, yes
@caps that may not be "stack-allocated"
user1804599
19:32
Or maybe implement a few more language features (such as if statements and inequality checking) and then I can rewrite the compiler in the source language.
IS-A and HAD-A
@LightnessRacesinOrbit So if I think a pointer-to-base might ever be used to delete a derived object then I should make the base destructor virtual and do the same in derived. Right?
waiting for pizza again :(
also damnit they didn't have parmesan at the supermarket
19:33
@caps derived's one is implicitly virtual if the base is virtual
@caps The derived destructor will automatically be virtual if the Base's is
I want to make spaghetti this weekend
now I have to go god knows where to find parmesan
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Oh cool, so if I just have an empty virtual ~base() then I don't need to worry about making a virtual ~derived() unless I actually need ~derived() to do something in addition to the standard stuff.
user1804599
I have to implement collection literals.
> Another college to offer scholarships for League of Legends players (...) the University of Pikeville in Kentucky will offer 20 scholarships for high level League of Legends players when the semester commences in Autumn. pcgamer.com/…
what the actual fuck
user1804599
19:35
Actually they can just be calls to functions.
user1804599
Like array(1, 2, 3) or dict((1, 2), (3, 4), (5, 6)).
> It could be because I'm getting old, but academic institutions rewarding students for playing video games still feels like a concept torn straight from Back to the Future.
it's not a concept torn straight from Back to the Future
it's a concept torn straight from Makes no Sense
Kinda cool.
Linearizing hiearchies.
One object to rule them all.
user1804599
Guys I need a hat.
at least colleges offering scholarships for sports actually concentrate on sports
this is not an eSports college
19:37
e-a-sports----tzunegein
my favorite was the "Challenge Everything" logo
user1804599
Guys if you have an Amazon wishlist can people see your real name? And if they buy something for you does it get sent immediately?
it played in the old NFS games
I was thinking... what if we're the most intelligent life forms in the universe
not in the "we're special" way
but in the "there's no other life form developed enough yet"
like, we're first
19:41
@JerryCoffin I recently read your blog post on Inheritance, templates, and database models
> I would posit that C++ templates (especially function templates) correspond closely to the relational model. Rather than being restricted to situations like "X is derived from Y", we can instantiate a template over any type satisfying some relation
@JerryCoffin It would be nice if you could provide some examples :)
@Ell lighting modes, macros, remapping programs, usb controller functions whatnot
@rightføld wait, did I read that right
you can download info about the order
and see the address to which it went
you read that right
19:43
even though you couldn't see it in the original order
wtf
@StackedCrooked title?
@sehe The C++ Programming Language
Oh. What's he meddling with inheritance for. Hoping this is a chapter from 1988
It's his most recent book.
still from '88
19:45
I think it's cool though. Better than the hierarchy with diamonds.
And only one vtable for the entire set of objects.
Actually, no, each class type probably has a vtable type.
But still cool.
!
For some meaning of cool
@StackedCrooked Those are all good reasons to like C++ better than Java and C#
user1804599
Why is Amazon so terrible?
user1804599
The only nice thing about Amazon is that in the logo the arrow goes from A to Z.
20:00
Amazon doesn't always ship to Romania so I never buy from there
eBay ftw
lol idiots complaining that Ubisoft's HD remake of Heroes 3 requires an 8800GT as minimum without even realizing the minimum supported DX version is 10
(nvidia had no other DX10 cards before the 8000 series)
That's pretty old.
they're also going crazy about it requiring a core 2 duo
My mid-end video card from 2008 was a GTX 9800.
@AlexM. lol
20:03
anyway, this answered my question (whether or not they rewrote the engine to make it easier to port to mobiles)
Given the current state of world politics, I think it's primarily opinion based whether anyone will even be alive in the year 10000. :D — Mysticial 4 mins ago
@Mysticial I had an ati x1600 back then
the 8800GTX was this amazing card that launched around the same time
that I could never afford
I was crazy about Gothic 3, also released around that time, with horrible optimization issues
the 8800GTX was the only card on the market able to push proper framerates at max details in that game
My GTX 9800+ on my Xeon X5482 only got like 30 - 60 FPS on Crysis max settings.
Things got a bit better on my i7 290 @ 3.5 GHz with a GTX 275. On my 2600K, it was GPU bound.
I should try it again now.
4 GHz Haswell with a 750Ti
-4
Q: Do IDEs help or hinder newbies learning to code?

William GoodWhen you start programming in languages like Java, C#, C++,etc. you will have basically two option: Use a full-blown IDE like Eclispe, visual studio or to use a basic text editor like notepad or vi if you are a Linux user for example. Do IDEs help or hinder newbies learning to code? Should they f...

/cc @Mysticial ^
20:10
According to OP: Windows -> IDEs, Linux -> Notepad
user1804599
Haskell
With a comma?
@Borgleader @Mysticial that would probably be a good on topic questions for programmers.se -_-
user1804599
I love how we call SE sites as XXX.se. But Anime.SE sounds like a shady site to illegally download Anime.
20:16
@rightføld I answered a question there two days ago (when to use == in JS) with (batshit crazy) argument that say using == is good and that weak typing in JS is awesome. I thought people would just call me a troll - wanna guess what happened?
@Borgleader I think it was Linux -> VI
user1804599
@BenjaminGruenbaum troll
@rightføld It got +110.
Over 6000 views, mfw.
@Mysticial Crysis on very high resolutions still kills today's hardware
but I'm tempted to believe it's just an optimization issue at this point
and not a valid benchmark anymore
Crysis 3 provides better graphics quality with lower hardware requirements
user1804599
What is Crysis?
20:20
It's the state of this room when your genitals are mentioned.
3
I was playing with my Pi program last night. I ran 4 benchmarks
- First version (v0.1.0) on my 6 year old workstation.
- Trunk build (v0.6.7) on my 6 year old workstation.
- First version (v0.1.0) on my 8-core Haswell
- Trunk build (v0.6.7) on my 8-core Haswell
The results were quite surprising.
user1804599
Too slow on all of them!
user1804599
@StackedCrooked bonerfest?
@AlexM. what's the difference :)
@Mysticial Does a multi-cpu system have a negative impact on the cost of atomics?
As opposed to multi-core on single-cpu.
20:23
Using the first version on my old workstation as the baseline:
- Moving forward to modern hardware with the same software only gives 2x speedup.
- Moving forward to the trunk build with the same hardware only gives 2x speedup.
- Move forward to both the modern hardware and the latest build, and it's 10x speedup.
2
@Mysticial v0.1 and v0.6.7 nearly identical throughput?
user1804599
@StackedCrooked What about single-core machines?
@rightføld Their atomics are pretty fast.
@Mysticial Ah. That's good news. It shows you've tuned well for the new hw
user1804599
Chernobyl.
20:24
@StackedCrooked mutexes and locks in linux for example are implemented completely differently in a single and multi core system.
@StackedCrooked Not that I've noticed. There's almost no synchronization in the program. If anything, it's memory performance from having multiple chips.
@BenjaminGruenbaum I'd hope so!
@sehe IOW, Moore's Law is still valid, but it needs help from software.
@sehe well - the question was whether or not a multi-cpu system has a negative impact on atomics - the answer is "yes" and I agree it's only logical.
@Mysticial If the cost of the total program is N units and each of those improvements reduces the cost by 1 unit, then speed will rise exponentially as more improvements are applied. Is it something like that?
20:27
Nah. You can't say Moore's Law is still valid. For one, that would suggest a single core got that much faster (the whole point about "no free lunch" and the need for parallel). Secondly, that a specific application could "confirm" Moore's Law, doesn't mean the Law holds generally (that's like saying: GPUs get so much faster, they're gonna replace current CPUs)
Reality must adapt to meet the Moore's Law.
Is the law about Hz or number of transistors per €?
@JohanLarsson In this case, it's for performance.
10x speedup over 6 years.
But it was only possible by upgrading both the hardware and the software.
@BenjaminGruenbaum Although in reality, the systems are then different enough to not be comparable (the MP situation is doing different things). And in absolute sense you'd be hardpressed to find a MP edition outperforming a SP edition of the same family in a certain benchmark)
@Mysticial I suppose the cost of your program is not just the calculation of PI but also the data throughput of the resulting digits?
20:30
@Mysticial So, that's /not/ Moore's Law anymore.
(Moore's Law doesn't say anything about the potential to optimize existing software over the years)
@sehe oh, in case it wasn't clear a single processor system does atomics much faster, at least in linux I haven't read the relevant part anywhere else.
I've found one rather expensive flaw with this new keyboard... I now really do need to get one for work, and my mouse feels like a fetid turd.
@sehe The hardware still supports Moore's Law in raw performance. But you need new software to utilize it. That's what I meant by "needs help from software". Obviously Moore's Law is dead for hardware when you keep the software constant.
Of course. In cycles, likely. But find me a pair of comparison processors where actual throughput is higher. (When you do a controlled A/B of a physical Multicore CPU but booted to run only a single core, then, obviously, the atomics will be faster in the single core mode)
@Mysticial free lunch is over, eh?
20:33
wiki's moore's law gave me this:
@BartekBanachewicz It's been over since multicore era.
you know guys
sometimes when topic as such pops out I am tempted to write out the shortest discussion path to haskell
multicore -> pure fp -> haskell
there, just saved myself 2 hours of typing and we all know what it's about
dat iphone3
20:34
@Mysticial Moore's Law was specificly only about hardware right. I should re-read it, maybe. Otherwise saying "Oooh, Moore's Law isn't completely dead yet, because I can make it appear to still hold" is like saying "See, the emperor isn't dead, because we can still make him wave his arm to the public" (with strings)
> "Moore's law" is the observation that, over the history of computing hardware, the number of transistors in a dense integrated circuit doubles approximately every two years.
@chmod711telkitty Dat pun. Which one is More Slow?
> In 2001, Moore received the Othmer Gold Medal for outstanding contributions to progress in chemistry and science.[16][17]
@StackedCrooked It has since acquired slightly different generally accepted versions, methinks. But yeah, strong emphasis on actual h/w
problem with Moore's Law is that it's been taken to mean 'performance'
though in that sense, whilst much harder to quantify, probably is still holding.
20:36
Arguably, that's Moore's Law's problem with it's interpreters
@thecoshman Yeah, that's the definition that I usually take. Since in practical terms, I don't really care how many transistors are in the chip. I care about how fast my shit runs.
@sehe You should write a blog about that. It's totally true.
And that's a valid view, but you can't claim Moore's Law with it anymore. Maybe more like Moore-Amdahl
@Mysticial oh ok, so I am now a billionaire, see I take the definition that I would like to have a billion €
@Mysticial Sounds eerily close to "I don't wanna hear about it here anymore" :)
I'm not blogging. I wouldn't read it myself :)
20:40
I know that cpu speeds seem to have maxed out, and we seem to be at the limit of how small the circuitry can be, but can we not still increase the amount of circuitry in the chips, just with bigger chips.
@thecoshman They kinda are. The 14nm Broadwell chips have a 13-layer design.
Chips are getting more and more 3D.
I say 'we', I of course mean those silicon gods
@sehe I never watched back to the future, but I suspect it does make some sense
17 mins ago, by sehe
@BenjaminGruenbaum I'd hope so!
yeah, so whilst the transistors per square inch nm is not increasing much, we're now are getting more layers.
20:42
@thecoshman how is that not "per nm²"?
@Mysticial was the old software recompiled with a newer compiler, or was it just the algorithms causing the speedup in the new software + new hardware combo?
@thecoshman I suspect the problem isn't the space, but it's the ability dissipate the heat.
I mean, if that speedup could have been caused by a newer compiler optimizing better
Do you reckon that a neighborhood with skyscraper has lower population density (person/m²) than a densily packed area with 1-story houses?
@AlexM. New software along with all the new optimizations for new hardware features. Unfortunately, I don't have any copies of the source code going back before v0.4.3-ish.
20:45
yup, that makes sense
And new compilers as well. Since I obviously can't use AVX2 if the compiler from 2008 doesn't support it.
Thank you for your help sir. I will try this out eventually and report back. This is valuable code; I have not found anything like it on the net. — xinthose 2 mins ago
Well... okay?
You should probably not accept it as "the solution" until you tried it :) — sehe 14 secs ago
due to the kind of marketing stuff like DirectX gets people are generally focused on thinking that newer DX versions should only be required if the game makes use of the amazing effects shown at E3, and if it doesn't have those effects, the system requirements are bullshit
they're not aware of the "the same thing as before but better and faster" improvements
yesterday, by chmod 711 telkitty
loungers are Iak (yes I will use 'I' instead of 'we' more)
(yes, there are people asking why the same Heroes 3 remake doesn't support DX9)
with the advancements in hardware and software that happened after DX9, I wouldn't even bother working with such ancient crap myself
20:49
@AlexM. Meh, people always find something to complain about.
It's a remake. If you don't want to use new hardware, just play the original?
there's even an HD mod for the original if they want
Few months ago I created an improved error handling for one of our apps. Here's a sampe.
x-macros is really useful here.
while the reworked HD graphics are indeed the highlight of this new release
I'm really more interested in the game using Steam's services for multiplayer
and map making and sharing
no more TCP/IP or weird internet-as-LAN crap
you just use Steam's lobbies to find opponents
It enables to fully automate registration and creation of parallel hierarchies (for the Tcl and Java font-ends).
20:54
Remember, when @Puppy was still nice
@StackedCrooked ascii art in code is a sin
@Pris It conceals the macro :)
if i was working on a project with that i would remove one white space so the ends dont line up
@sehe When? The 3 day period after he finally got meds? :P
@Pris You bastard.
21:05
On a scale of 1 to 10 (10, obviously, being the most), how much do y'all hate IE?
@DemCodeLines Not a web developer, so not very much.
@DemCodeLines Haven't used it in years so I can't say. (Using mac at home and linux at work.)
user1804599
@DemCodeLines googol
I haven't even seen Windows 8 yet.
Did you guys see the new Spartan browser that MS is building?
21:08
Unless for screenshots.
user1804599
@StackedCrooked Visual Studio Ultimate ran very smoothly on Windows 8 on my MacBook Pro.
spartan looks ugly
Here is a mockup based on leaked screenshots:
@rightføld Using bootcamp or VMWare?
21:08
at first i thought it had some spamware toolbar installed but it legit has links for facebook and all that
user1804599
@StackedCrooked Bootcamp.
Star if you agree.
user1804599
No.
user1804599
21:08
Get out.
You think that's ugly?
that dog does not seem happy
@DemCodeLines 403 Forbidden
user1804599
It's a browser, so it's shit.
21:11
thats the one i saw
Yeah, apparently that one was fake or some really old version.
@DemCodeLines Typical spartan.
who the hell makes a fake screenshot for a browser
internet
actual screenshots
user1804599
it's shit
21:14
lol u mad
jk
user1804599
does it use webkit?
user1804599
of not then it's shit
user1804599
firefox should also get rid of gecko and switch to webkit
user1804599
everyone webkit much easier to develop
yeah, so webkit can get a monopoly and slow down innovation, instead of competition between different engines that drives innovation.
21:17
why do we even need html anymore
webgl + js
no webkit/html engine required
yes that makes sense for documents
What about following actual standards instead?
@rightføld gecko is supposed to get replaced but not by webkit
user1804599
fuck servo
21:21
someone doesnt like rust
@Pris you still need a way to render html
user1804599
Rust is completely irrelevant.
Everybody who likes Rust should go check how the guts of their standard io library look like. That code hurts one's eyes.
I think it's pretty cool, if servo is written more cleanly than the actual mozilla codebase it should become nice
@Griwes hmmm
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Come on now, it's not like webkit was the first standard and Microsoft refused to follow it. They had pretty much developed a legit standard with IE6, but then got left behind because they didn't do much with IE after IE6 and people finally decided to take matter in their own hands built other engines and all of a sudden, the standards were much different.
Let's not forget that the internet didn't have very many "standards" when it first came about for general public. It was a mess.
user1804599
21:25
@Griwes the only I/O library I've liked is Go's and to some extent Java's.
@DemCodeLines You're replying to the wrong person.
user1804599
They clearly separate reading/writing from decoding/encoding.
user1804599
And buffering is very clear and explicit and easy to use (or not use if you don't want it).
@LightnessRacesinOrbit oh, where you replying to @Pris?
I want to fill my bedroom with plants now
user1804599
21:33
Do iiiit.
user1804599
Livestream it.
who the hell would watch a guy placing plants in his bedroom
also it's 22:33, so no plant sellers are open
user1804599
@Jefffrey buy these plants: glowingplant.com
the idea is to have less chemicals in the air
not more
also jesus christ
@DemCodeLines yes and I never mentioned standards
21:35
who the fuck is creeping behind the plant
user1804599
lol
user1804599
awesome
far from being terrible
i'll have nightmares
user1804599
21:37
@Jefffrey it's just genetically modified.
Whiskey
Programming
user1804599
cat
user1804599
stop programming
user1804599
it's not good for you
Need moneys
user1804599
21:43
for what
Food
And whiskey
user1804599
you can get cat food everywhere
user1804599
just get an owner
you can get food by local churches
and whiskey, you just need to beg for money on the streets
user1804599
Trade your whiskers for whiskey.
2
21:57
Fucking Artifactory hogs all the best features in Pro version that costs thousands
of melons?

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