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8:00 PM
and wash them regularly, you know, to not get them all yellow and mouldy and shit.
 
2 mins ago, by Puppy
perhaps I should purchase some implement to aid me in removing them
 
Ell
@Puppy also that's a good way to get an ingrown toenail
you have to cut toenails square
 
^that.
 
why can't the dumb things just stop growing at the appropriate juncture?
I don't have to clip my fingers or my teeth.
 
TEETH AREN'T NAILS!
2
 
8:03 PM
truth of the day
 
and i hope you clip your fingernails?
 
main()
{
    printf("hello");
    return 0;
}
 
that is readily apparent.
 
Is this legal standard C? This is from a 2013 book on C.
 
@Cicada star that shit
 
8:03 PM
yes, but not my actual fingers.
they stopped growing in length
 
@FredOverflow I guess it's legal C89? (implicit int)
 
@rubenvb capitalize it and I may consider it
 
@Cicada done.
 
Ell
oh balls. I don't think I can use my libstdc++ compiled boost::any with libc++.
 
there, ruined the already-terrible starboard just for you
 
8:05 PM
@Ell nope, well, yes, but you'll still need libstdc++.
 
Oh boi
 
@Ell You can indeed not.
 
Ell
I wonder if I can have both versions of boost living aside each other
man this is such a pain.
 
nope.
 
I have to wake up at 9 tomorrow
 
8:05 PM
they're both Itanium compiled so they'll mangle the same way and you'll end up with two versions of every function with identical names.
 
What's with all the erasing messages tonight?
@Puppy libc++ puts everything in a different namespace last time I checked
 
Ell
@rubenvb besides std?
 
@rubenvb I wasn't thinking of the std functions themselves.
 
Ell
well I'm getting this atm: undefined reference to __cxa_allocate_exception'`
I'll have to update my gcc too
 
:19462604     #define _LIBCPP_NAMESPACE _LIBCPP_CONCAT(__,_LIBCPP_ABI_VERSION)
#define _LIBCPP_BEGIN_NAMESPACE_STD namespace std {inline namespace _LIBCPP_NAMESPACE {
#define _LIBCPP_END_NAMESPACE_STD  } }
#define _VSTD std::_LIBCPP_NAMESPACE
namespace std {
  inline namespace _LIBCPP_NAMESPACE {
  }
}
 
8:08 PM
@Ell Itanium ABI support library.
 
everything's in an inline namespace __1 or whatever. I thought those were different symbols than for libstdc++
 
libsupc++, libc++abi, IIRC libstdc++ should export them too
 
@Puppy yeah, true.
 
of course it's true.
I said it.
 
lol
 
8:09 PM
besides
 
"should" implies some form of doubt
 
you can trust me on stuff like, exception handling implementation details...
 
Ell
well I can't find a copy of libc++abi anywhere on my machine
 
@Ell what OS?
 
Ell
@rubenvb linux
 
8:10 PM
@Ell that's the kernel, what distro?
 
just use libstdc++
 
Ell
@rubenvb linux mint
 
most distros do not ship libc++ and libc++abi
 
@Puppy libc++ needs to be built for one of three
 
they're not ready for prime time really.
 
Ell
8:11 PM
I thought clang would have build libc++abi for me
 
I suppose the Mint packages are the same if not identical
 
nope.
 
there's libc++abi1 there
 
libc++abi/libc++ and Clang are different projects.
obviously related, but different projects.
 
is setting class "default" values via static member functions so that they don't need to be repeatedly passed as arguments an antipattern? I'm trying to avoid having to repeatedly pass config file options as arguments
 
Ell
8:12 PM
@rubenvb yeah
but I'd rather just build it myself
 
Then copy what that package does.
 
@JDiMatteo If your design involves mutable global state as a part of your public interface, re-design until it doesn't.
 
@Puppy How is that? What's broken still?
 
@JDiMatteo Not very cool, can't you use something like Prototype?
 
Ell
boy. I only have 40Gb left on my drive
 
8:14 PM
AFAIK they can't even figure out if libc++ depends on libc++abi or the other way around
 
Ell
I'm going to put /usr/local/src on it's own partition next time
 
@Puppy Both. :D
 
@Puppy I don't see how that's relevant to the consumer.
 
What you really need to do is create a fake libc++.so, link libc++abi with it, and then link libc++ with real libc++abi. :D
 
Puppy: thanks for the feedback, I'll try and remove the global state
 
8:16 PM
You're welcome
 
(At least that's the easiest way to get to a working state I found on Linux.)
 
what I mean is, from what I've read in #llvm, they can't even figure out how they should fit together conceptually, and I don't know if libc++abi works anywhere.
IIRC libc++ itself only really works well on Mac.
 
But man, it feels nice running this much less GNU code in my applications.
 
what's wrong with the gnu code
 
@Puppy Works fine w/ libc++abi for me on Linux. The only hard moment in using it is as I described above - building it.
 
8:17 PM
it's GNU code.
 
@Cicada Everything.
 
@Puppy it works on Linux and BSD.
 
That's ThePhD code
 
So, I don't see what you're getting at.
 
I'd replace every line of GNU code from my toolchain if I could.
 
8:17 PM
libsupc++ duplicates a lot of stuff also in libstdc++, so that's not any better
 
oh wait, I use MSVC, so I did.
 
lol are you sure?
MS has used GNU code before
 
@Puppy That's not really bettern than GNU in any way.
 
@Griwes It's a little better. A little.
 
Ell
I don't see the issue with GNU
it's certainly better than proprietary code
 
8:19 PM
they're rabid copyleft fanatics who want to take away your rights as a developer.
 
lol you're still so puppy. I wonder when you'll finally develop a sense of logical thought.
 
at least all Microsoft want to do is charge you money.
 
Ell
What
microsoft charge you money to use their binaries
gnu allow you to use & change their source for no fee and thus allow you to use their binaries
 
True, the GPL isn't the best thing in the world. But not everything GNU is hardwired to the GNU dude (I forget his name)
 
@Puppy: I hope you are in the minority about thinking GNU takes away your rights. I think the dominant view is that GNU frees you
 
8:20 PM
if by "no fee" you mean "You only have to pay with all of your source code"
 
Ell
microsofts "freeness" is a subset of gnu's "freeness"
 
@JDiMatteo The dominant view of morons.
 
@Ell wrong.
 
Ell
@Puppy no?
 
@Ell yes.
 
8:20 PM
@Ell Disagree.
 
Ell
you can link to gnu binaries without making your project gnu
 
if you pay Microsoft, then you're done, obligation over.
 
@Ell nope.
 
they don't give a shit what you do with your code or your app.
 
@Ell That's LGPL
 
8:20 PM
with GPL, it's not over.
 
Ell
@rubenvb oh balls. my bad
 
And the GCC runtime libs have a runtime exception.
 
@Ell Microsoft actually tells you that their code is not free. GNU lies to you that it is.
 
So the argument doesn't apply to them either, but in general, no, you cannot link to GNU libs.
 
Ell
@rubenvb I don't understand why it doesn't apply to LGPL?
 
8:21 PM
with Microsoft, you don't have to pay with everything that you've made, and force everyone who wants to use it to pay with everything they've made, and so forth.
a bit of money is nothing in comparison to all your source code.
 
@Ell No, I meant you can link to the GCC runtime libs as if they weren't GPL.
 
and for freebies, there's always VS Express.
 
Ell
@Puppy this is true
 
@Puppy Depends on how you see your source code.
 
@rubenvb Not when you can just use Express for free :P
 
8:23 PM
at least GNU gives you the freedom to fix and understand problems. developing with MS after years of developing on Linux is incredibly frustrating. I'm sick of having my IDE crash and other nonsense
 
false dichotomies, yay!
 
@JDiMatteo At least there actually is an IDE to crash.
 
lol
@Puppy Linux is an IDE, fool!
 
@Puppy Linux has plenty of crashing IDE's
 
heh
 
8:23 PM
That too :-p
 
probably true.
I meant, at least the IDE is in a state such that you are actually worse off without it.
at least a little.
 
the best thing about these dumb OS wars is that no matter which side someone favors, it's so easy to disagree with them and point out all the ways in which it's shit
 
well I kinda agree that neither side is an especially attractive option.
Microsoft have a habit of leaving their products and customers to rot.
the tool I'm hating at work because it can only process 50kb of text a second (single-threaded) is a Microsoft tool.
 
@Puppy Oh, so does the Linux side.
The ecosystem is just a lot more flexible.
 
not really feeling the flexibility in "Pay with all your source code or fuck off".
MIT licence, now that's flexibility.
 
Ell
8:26 PM
I don't think regular GNU is terrible
I think it is well suited for certain projects
 
"regular GNU"
 
@Puppy You don't have to use GPL libraries.
 
I've got plenty to bitch about LLVM and Clang, but you can't say it's not genuinely free.
 
Ell
oops. regular GPL :P
I mean if I start a project that I want to be open, gpl is perfect
 
@Ell It's kinda communistic :-p
 
8:27 PM
@Puppy IT'S APPLE
 
@Ell Why not MIT? Or BSD 3 clause? Or CC0?
 
found puppy just casually debugging a home in W2
 
nope
no bin
 
@Ell It's perfect because everybody who wants to use it has to pay with all their source code?
@Cicada Who cares? It's free.
 
HIV is free too
 
8:29 PM
Ebola too.
 
HIV is not a compiler and a compiler library.
 
Have you even tried??
 
to compile code with HIV?
admittedly, I have not attempted to compile code with HIV.
 
Ell
@rubenvb because you want your project to remain open?
 
@Ell It's your source code. It has your copyright. You decide if it stays open.
 
8:30 PM
MIT-licence is open.
 
Ell
@rubenvb what if I want other people to contribute to it, but for it to remain open?
 
then make them assign their copyright.
 
@Ell That's possible. If they value your work they can just contribute like any other open source project?
 
or make them agree to permanently leave it licenced under MIT.
 
Ell
@rubenvb how?
 
8:31 PM
that's what LLVM & Clang do.
@Ell Pull request?
 
Ell
@rubenvb but then it will be their code and they can choose to close it can't they?
idk
 
@Ell You can't "close" code.
 
Ell
what license means people cant fork & close?
 
not if you make them agree otherwise.
also
 
They can make changes and not give those away.
Your code will always remain open.
 
8:32 PM
the problem of other people being able to change licences of their code is just as true for GPL as MIT.
IIRC there's a bunch of code that's still GPLv2 because they can't find the original authors to agree to move to GPLv3
 
@Puppy uhm no? You can't unGPL GPL code unless you are the sole copyright owner...
 
that's why you now have to assign copyright to FSF or EFF or somebody like that.
@rubenvb Right, so if I write some code, then I'm the sole copyright owner of that bit of code.
 
@Puppy ah misread your thingie before.
@Ell Also, think about it: there's no way on this Earth you can be 100% sure some company isn't going to steal your code for in-house work.
Ever.
 
Ell
yeah, but that's about pragmatism
 
yep.
 
Ell
8:34 PM
if they did I could send them to prison maybe
 
oh noes, pragmatism?
 
@Ell Good luck with that.
 
isn't that a compiler directive
2
 
@Cicada #pramga tism
I wonder what that does.
 
NetHack
 
8:36 PM
Toggle Instruction Streaming Multiprocessor
 
Ell
toggle instruction set m'lady
 
I'm outta here. Cya fella's!
 
man
 
And fellina's!
or whatever
 
I ate way, WAY too much
I'm gonna pay for this.
 
Ell
8:37 PM
I ate too much cookie dough
I think I'm going to pay for it
I might as well just purge now and be done with it
 
I think you don't have gallstones and IBS, so you lose this competition by default.
 
Ell
it's not a competition
 
that's why you lost it!
 
@Ell it is now!
 
you lost it because you're inferior and weak and I'm great
with various chronic diseases
and a job cocksuckers
I'm gonna get paid in two weeks
and it's gonna be loots
 
Ell
8:41 PM
I applied to aldi
I'm updating to gcc 4.9.1 also
 
not gonna go to university? or were you taking a gap yeear?
 
Ell
I'm taking a year to resit 4 exams
So, re-applying for university soon
I think gcc includes libstdc++
I wonder if gcc will build before clang does
 
user1804599
@Ell Are you gonna work at ALDI supermarket?
 
Ell
@rightføld hopefully :D
 
user1804599
Sounds terrible.
 
Ell
8:47 PM
they pay well
well. relatively :P
wooo new oneplus one invite
 
I thought your oneplus one was a phone.
 
Ell
yeah it's an invite only phone
 
it's like a torrent tracker
but it's a phone
 
huh.
this sounds tremendously dumb.
 
Ell
it's marketing
 
8:53 PM
this simply affirms that my previous statement is, in fact, true.
 
it's very hard for me to justify trying to get an invite to buy an oneplus one
 
Ell
they are amazing value
 
when I can get a great phone for the same price at a shop that... doesn't require an invite
also how do you even get an invite?
do you buy invites?
 
Ell
you just ask people
 
loot in dungeons?
oh
 
Ell
8:55 PM
also they're on amazon anyway
 
well at least they don't sell the invites
tracker invites are sold
 
Ell
tracker invites?
 
torrent tracker invites
people pay for those
 
1 hour ago, by Puppy
I suppose your mother could be thinner
^^ lol, first thing I saw when I popped in.
 
glad that you were not forced to go without my razor-sharp wit.
bah can't install torrent client without admin priveleges
 
9:06 PM
@Puppy I hope you are not trying to install it at your job...
 
I never previously realized how fucking annoying it is that everything needs to be admin
nop
and I have admin priveleges on my machine there
 
it would be pretty annoying not to give a programmer admin rights
you'd have to ask someone with rights to allow any installation, ugh
 
the thing I'm working on requires admin rights.
 
Ell
you shouldn't give them admin rights
you should give them programmer rights
 
what does that mean on Windows?
 
Ell
9:11 PM
a subset of admin rights but a superset of average-joe rights
idk what it means on windows regular
but you can probs do it with active directory
 
ugh
 
anyway, every user has admin rights at my workplace
 
I am the lord and master of my machine, if I say jump it asks me how high
I don't wanna go running to my boss every time I want to install Python or Keepass or Dropbox or VMWare Player or any of a thousand other useful tools.
 
bittorrenting is banned throughout normal work hours so that random people don't kill the bandwidth for everyone else, but after 18:00 there are pretty much no limits set on internet stuff
the place didn't blow up yet
 
I got my iostreams printf working
neato
I'm just missing the *n$, * and .* stuff.
 
9:28 PM
I can just see it now
"IOStreams printf! The legendarily terrible interface of printf with the equally legendarily terrible implementation of IOStreams".
 
pretty cute man
 
@rubenvb implementation defined :)
hi
 
hello
 
all I'm saying is, if you want to format strings or perform I/O, there are a great many better ways of doing both of those things than printf or iostreams, and combining them just seems like the worst of both worlds.
 
you're not suggesting any alternatives here
I've tried 3 different format strings
Python str.format, C# String.Format and now printf format string
the only thing I haven't done is make my own
 
9:35 PM
Hmm... I remember somebody linking me to a C++ library implementing C#'s format strings.
 
that was probably me
 
boost::format is the obvious place to start.
 
boost format is printf-based
 
I haven't really looked into it in great detail because formatting strings is for cavemen
 
lol okay
 
9:44 PM
Is it moral to use Bjarne_case for concepts?
 
no.
 
user1804599
As long as you are consistent it's fine.
 
I can be consistent, but I wonder if I want to promote something I dislike
 
user1804599
If you dislike it then don't do it.
 
Nothrow_move_constructible ew
 
9:46 PM
don't use Bjarne_case.
When I emailed him he said that the Concepts Lite paper only uses it because it's what he's used to and that the standard will probably use something else
 
OK, that's good to hear
 
user1804599
@AndyProwl Who not Noexcept?
 
I don't really see the need to be consistent.
let's face it: any automated tool, like, say, clang-format, can apply pretty much any naming scheme automatically.
so fuck being consistent just for the sake of it.
 
@rightføld I think it's usually referred to as "nothrow" although the keyword is noexcept
 
user1804599
OIC
 
9:48 PM
@AndyProwl It is indeed nothrow.
 
In fact I wonder why they picked noexcept instead of nothrow
 
probably too many existing uses of nothrow.
 
The "no-throw" guarantee was a thing before C++11
ah
like #define nothrow throw()?
 
I like Ada's This_Is_My_Identifier style.
That is all. Carry on.
 
I just like snake_case, it's the most readable IMO
 
9:52 PM
personally I tend to use CamelCase.
 
at work I have to use CamelCase
 
Fight!
 
lol
 
Ell
@Puppy PascalCase
camelCase
 
nobody cares
 
Ell
9:54 PM
you're a mean little man
 
I_uSe_FUckup__case
 
I'm totting up all the money I'll have to borrow for my family just so I can sleep on the floor of my flat.
 
How about __undefinedCase
 
let alone buy food, furniture, etc.
 
That's a reserved identifier by the way
 
9:55 PM
@AndyProwl I am the implementation so I can get away with it, teehee.
 
It'll get better once you get your first paycheck
Or second
 
yeah I know
but it's still grumpy day.
 
@Puppy you win
 
because I put a bunch of money on my credit card and now I can't get it back out because fuck my bank.
 
Ah yes, one-way functions
Banks are terrible
 
9:57 PM
also
even if I did get it out I'd still have to borrow way too much.
sometimes I wonder what I'm living for.
 
I was going to say bitches
Do you have some kind of student loan to pay back?
 

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