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10:00 PM
I'd work at any hour if needed
 
@Puppy Yes. And this is what ideally should be fine. However, ideally and humanity don't often align. Also, overpopulation is a thing, and unfair distribution of wealth is a thing. And greed & boredom are powerful incentives in humans. I'm pessimistic about this.
 
Nyerg....sometimes I hate enums...
 
@GrahamFielding harrow
 
10:01 PM
@Ell (note that the SO q was the first result on Google for expand parameter pack function call)
 
@sehe Probably--but I'm not sure how much real difference that makes. If governments decide to take action against somebody, lack of (real) incriminating evidence is hardly a hindrance.
 
Good point.
 
@sehe -- yay! Someone heard me :)
 
@AlexM. That's the thing.... I can (and used to) work plenty extra hours... but nobody outside of my own team seems to be capable of believing that I also do the normal daytime hours, just as if I were in the office with them.
 
@GrahamFielding Wut. You got a complete video response before
 
10:02 PM
/me is easily excited.
 
They just mentally assume that I get up whenever I like and randomly put in 8 hours scattered around the day and night. No matter what I say or what they see.
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I blame personalised search
 
It's really frustrating for some reason.
@Ell I blame personalised upbringing and DNA.
 
Bet they write "team spirit" in their CV
 
Oh. I didn't see it.
 
10:03 PM
I'm sure they do
 
Haven't done this kind of chat in a while, so I'm still getting used to things.
 
Good luck with that
 
come on fall into the trap damn it
 
Feb 16 '13 at 12:32, by Lightness Races in Orbit
yes yes I know, don't announce your plonks, withdrawn
 
10:05 PM
Also, that must be one of the most ponytails starpolls ever
4
 
ponytails?
idgi
 
@sehe I agree. The core problem is that we broke evolution and don't have an alternative system of deciding what's best on the scales we need it.
 
Pointless
Stupid phone
 
10:06 PM
yeah, it was only a joke for the whole "star to abstain" punchline thing
 
@Puppy I knew I'd get you to agree by being pessimistic :) I didn't even have to pretend though
 
I'm not giving sehe another chance ever
especially when he abuses his owner powers to hide things about him!
hee hee
 
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hide Ok, I'll allow it
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes have a star. you autocorrectfail with style
also I suddenly want a ponytail again
 
sehe has removed sehe from the list of this room's owners.
8
 
10:08 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Time for a game of pin the ponytail on the ass donkey.
 
Okay, so....etiquette question: is it okay if I ask a programming-related question here? Or should I restrict it to the main site?
 
I'm a bit sick of getting that troll attitude. It'll be good for my health to be powerless. I suppose it'll make me leave the lounge someday.
 
@GrahamFielding You're a lot more likely to get useful answers on the main site.
 
10:08 PM
@GrahamFielding Depends. First answer a short questionnaire.
1. Is it a question that would be suitable on SO?
 
@sehe Big bear like you? powerless? i think not
 
Questionnaire over; post it on SO :)
 
@Borgleader At least in the lounge :)
 
10:09 PM
For anyone curious, question 2 was going to be hilarious. But now you'll never know :(
 
lol Ask it anyway!
 
@sehe It's not pessimistic at all. It's only pessimistic if we don't have the ability to correct the problem before a catastrophe occurs.
 
@Puppy How would we be able to prevent it? Perhaps, we can live (well, some of us) through it. That's a recurring theme of human history
 
10:12 PM
Other than the engineers working on PHP and Google's "imghp"/"webhp" apps, that is
 
I dare you. I double-dare you. Write "for (i = 0; i < strlen(s); i++)" ONE MORE FUCKING TIME.
this guy is awesome xD
 
inb4 sehe asks to be owner again
 
@sehe It's more than a recurring theme of history; it's the very nature of life on Earth.
 
Touché. But I suppose it /feels/ different when you operate under the illusion that self-consciousness is somehow biologically special
This illusion is hard to evade, as a human being
 
Ell
@sehe and pretty difficult to measure on non humans
Impossible really
 
10:15 PM
it is very special
just not in that respect.
 
I'm not so sure. I think science may well arrive at a model for sentience that allows us to compare animal sentience to that of humans. And /I/ think that we will be humbled.
Dolphins aren't just cute. Douglas Adams wasn't just making shit up about mice.
 
Actually, on reflection I think posting something as simple as this on SO would be overkill, so I'll ask it here anyhow: when it comes to enums, what are the data types involved and how do I save them for later recall?
 
@sehe I wonder if we won't die out before that happens
 
Ell
@GrahamFielding wrong conclusion man
 
maybe we won't
the uncertainty of the future sure is scary
at least to me
 
10:18 PM
Noted.
 
Ell
@GrahamFielding here for the latter en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/types/underlying_type
 
Dying is fucking scary
 
Ah, thanks.
 
But maybe it's necessary
 
@Sofffia actually, it's more about how you're not necessary to what happens around you that's scary
 
10:19 PM
@AlexM. I think we're very close to "seeing" this in neuroscience. I just think that it will take a while for the Galileo Galilelei of our times to stick his/her neck out and actually demonstrate a feasible theory to that extent
 
with or without you, the universe will go on
 
@AlexM. Well observed
 
@AlexM. Who says you didn't invent the universe, and it's all a product of your mind?
 
@Sofffia Especially dying your hair
 
That's dyeing.
 
10:21 PM
@Sofffia that's way too open to debate right now
 
I know
I had that debate too many times.
 
if you want something even more localized
any other human you know will carry on with their life if you just go away
 
Until they also go away
 
you're not necessary for anyone and anything (that you observe, if you wish)
which is what I think is the real scary thing
 
Nah
The point of life is living.
Making experiences and pass the time.
 
Ell
10:23 PM
yup
the point of life is whatever point you give it, nothing more than that
 
We have a poet here, guys.
 
user1646075
@sehe I thought one measure was whether an animal could recognise that the thing in the mirror was itself.
 
@Sofffia And here I thought it was farting.
 
@aclarke It is. However, it's focusing on a trivial thing that centers around ego. Intelligence could very well manifest as a social thing (look at ants). We're just looking at it from our own distorted bubble of antropocentrism
 
10:25 PM
I'd want people to forget me.
 
good oneboxing
 
@Sofffia I don't know
I don't personally like that definition
 
@Ell I smell anarchist agenda :)
 
@sehe I kinda disagree.
 
As I've always said: just make a toast in my honor and then get the fuck on with your lives.
 
user1646075
10:25 PM
@Sofffia I have to wonder what non-universe managed to create a mind so powerful that it could invent the current universe. This is really an argument for/against God in another form.
 
it's way too equivalent to "the point of life is whatever you want it to be"
 
the achievements of ants look great only if you forget to account for the non-linear growth in strength compared to size.
 
@aclarke That is such an huge topic that if we talked about it 8 hours a day for a week, we wouldn't repeat ourselves.
 
@Puppy Well. I welcome your thoughts. I'm just making up an opinion as I go (and doing Boost Graph programming in the mean time). I do realize that you have much more solid background in the non-exact sciences than I have (biology, history to name two relevant subjects here).
 
I wonder if we'd still ask ourselves what the point of life is if we became immortal
 
10:27 PM
@AlexM. I like the definition that I've read somewhere some time back: the point of life is understanding who you are.
 
user1646075
@sehe awareness of self must surely be just having a sufficiently powerful model of the self; a model like the models a sentient mind makes about other objects and entities in it's world. Beyond that, I run out of puff
 
user1646075
@Sofffia indeed, but I apply Occam's razor because of this point.
 
user1646075
I have actually seen a 'technical proof' that God could magically spring him/herself into existence in order to create existence. It was quite spectacular.
 
@Puppy I'm always surprised at the ability to coordinate. That's not just statistics (although, yes the laws of big numbers makes simple things look impressive).
 
10:29 PM
@aclarke Link?
 
@Sofffia I don't know if anyone wrote anything saying this
 
user1646075
@Sofffia I wish!
 
but I like to think that the point of life is to answer the questions we ask
 
@aclarke Not really. Everything's relative. You might as well say galaxies are impossible because they're big. You're arguing from your standpoint as a human but the anthropic principle kinda renders that observation moot, I should think.
 
or make it easier for the next generation to answer them
and this includes the "what's the point of life?" question
 
10:30 PM
@aclarke That sounds interesting
 
I believe that question will never be "solved".
 
(and dumb)
@aclarke self-awareness freaks me the fuck out
 
@Sofffia well there's some "recursion" in there :D
 
Slightly related: recent studies are showing, more and more, that plants actively defend against specific predators (cater pillars etc.), and change their taste according to the presence of them. Now, further studies have shown that neighbouring platns will actually pick up on those events and respond in kind fashion. So, it's like they actually "talk" among themselves "Oh hey, caterpillar here, best get a little bitter now" - "Ohey, thanks for the headsup"
 
I don't know if it will ever be answered
 
user1646075
10:31 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I'd rather reduce creation to some self-inducing extraordinarily low-level effect. However cosmology has already outpaced my comprehension ;-(
 
It's not a nice thing to say but I really hope for some Ebola alarmists in the West to catch mumps from their non-MMR-vaccinated kids.
giggle
 
hopefully we get closer to the truth with every new guy who tries to answer it
some progress is better than none
 
@aclarke same, probably. just sayin',.
 
in any case, that's what we've been doing so far
 
@AlexM. how do we prove the rightest guy right?
 
10:32 PM
we've been surviving and answering questions asked by us
 
Just randomly knowing that you are going to die every once in a while is great.
 
@aclarke As long as you pick the right axiomata, you can plausibly prove anything at all
 
It makes you dare to do stuff.
 
@Alex you might enjoy Asimov's The Last Question
 
I was led to believe that I would die just the once.
 
user1646075
10:32 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit yup - invoking a design and designer ALWAYS begs the question - where did this come from...
 
It's a short story you can read online.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit we do an assert!
 
user1646075
@Sofffia Yes - life is short. fucking live it!
 
Life is not short.
From what I've heard.
 
user1646075
@sehe going to hit that induction/deduction argument soon
 
10:33 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Is this why you suppress self-reflection so effectively?
 
user1646075
@Sofffia depends on how well you live it. A boring life - sooooo loonnnngggggg
 
@Sofffia life becomes short when you wish it were longer
 
user1646075
@AlexM. ooo i like that
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'll take a look
 
I think that near the end you almost have the wish of just going away.
 
10:34 PM
@aclarke Turtles Designers all the way down.
 
is it also SF like The Foundation?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I wanted to link you to your original posting of that, but I can't find it :(
 
Sometimes I feel like that.
 
@aclarke should've used the Actor Model
 
@AlexM. I guess the a breakthrough will come once we realize we've been asking the wrong question (or wrongly expecting the answer to be anything we'd understand)
 
10:35 PM
Or once we realize we don't know the question!
 
@sehe that's a valid milestone in our progress, and I'd be ok with something like that
 
@sehe What? You're saying "42" really isn't useful? How dare you?
 
For example that famous guy that some time ago said that he wishes to just go away soon so that he doesn't have to deal with ebola and ISIS.
Pretty strong words.
 
finding out you've been going the wrong way and have to switch to another sounds like an important realization
 
@JerryCoffin Not at all. It will just be very hard to realize the usefulness
 
10:36 PM
"Yup, I'm just forfeiting. Good luck guys"
 
@Sofffia "that famous guy"
JOHN CLEESE
"some time ago"
Yesterday, IIRC.
 
@sehe Hmm, I agree that it's not necessarily intuitive, but our own forays into agent-based systems show that you can make surprisingly complex behaviour from very simple agents.
 
user1646075
@JerryCoffin hah lols. I like the hindu model - the earth is resting on the backs of elephants who are standing on a giant turtle swimming through the heavens. It's amazing how many people have never heard that, so it's a realllly good point to hit them with.
 
@Sofffia I'd actually like to live forever to see how far we'll be able to get
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Keeping track of time is p fucking boring. :P
 
10:37 PM
who wants... to live... forever
 
and when, if ever, we'll stop answering questions we ask
 
What if he goes away by catching Ebola and being captured by ISIS?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Queen
 
and if that happens, what comes next
 
@Sofffia it's more entertaining when you become at least remotely capable of it
@R.MartinhoFernandes rekd
 
10:37 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes What if he destroys ISIS by being an Ebola plague carrier?
 
user1646075
@Sofffia best plan I heard was to be comfortable that you've just about achieved everything you can think of, so you're ready to let the next generation take over the lols and funs.
 
Talking about life and death relaxes me a lot.
 
@Puppy Damn! Beat me to it (except I was going to be more explicit, and say it sounded like a good plan).
 
user1646075
... rather than being full of sucky regrets. Note to self: lose that daddy-weight...
 
@Puppy Neural nets! Yes, the plants are doing it. The ants are doing it. Why shouldn't our brains be similar. The mistery is still self-awareness. But I'm not sure we can dismiss the possibility that other "structures" or "phenomena" exhibit precisely the same properties, except for the fact that can't intuit it, as outside observers.
I'm tired.
 
10:39 PM
@sehe The problem with that is that if ants exhibited the same phenomena as humans, they'd be intergalactic explorers by now.
 
@Sofffia In my marriage, I deal with the important questions like Ebola, AIDS, and ISIS. My wife just deals with the minor details like where we'll live, what we'll drive, and how we'll spend our days.
 
Ant Starfleet
 
user1646075
@AlexM. Live forever or die trying.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That could be a good strategy to decimate their armed forces
 
lol
 
10:40 PM
@sehe Relevant.
 
@Puppy Who says. That's not a fact. That's just a nice thought experiment
 
Ell
Living with aids must suck
 
ISIS might be more efficient in dealing with Ebola though.
 
@JerryCoffin whoa
 
I mean, they would just kill all the infected and be done with it immediately.
 
10:41 PM
@Puppy oooh
 
And then maybe burn them or something.
 
@Puppy Oh, I see you beat me to the punch
 
@sehe Well, it is factual that ants are a lot older than humans as a species, so if they exhibited similar growth rates, they should have some serious punch compared to us.
 
user1646075
@sehe it seems pretty clear already that at least all the Great Apes (is that stil the technical name?) are functionally equivalent, just with a weaker level of intelligence.
 
still
 
user1646075
10:42 PM
eg Apes, chimps, bonobos, possibly orange-tangs (jk) and .. the 2 or 3 other
 
I think that the fundamental thing that sets humans apart from other animals would probably be language.
 
@Sofffia Yes, but you have to do it cleanly, and dispose of the remains very cleanly as well. Beheading doesn't work well in this case.
 
user1646075
also full abstract language. (thanks pups)
 
there's no other species on Earth that can pass knowledge around like we can.
everything that we have is built on the efforts of previous generations.
if you're an ant, you build a new colony every generation, I think it is.
 
@Puppy ...as far as we know. But we don't know enough about what the sounds made by whales, dolphins, etc., to really rule it out either (yet more that Douglas Adams may have had right).
 
10:43 PM
@Puppy If. It's pretty clear they don't. It's just balance with environmental forces. Things could have ended up very differently. Likewise if the earth had been a few million miles closer to the sun (or farther from it, for that matter)
 
user1646075
@Puppy yup - chimps have been seen to pass a culture of digging out termites with sticks, or smashing certain nuts with rocks, but that's about the strength of it.
 
A stupid update for Microsoft SQL Server 2008 keeps failing on my machine and I somehow dont have the uninstaller for this which means I can't remove it.
ffs
 
@aclarke Yeah, but that's still thinking inside the box; thinking by antropocentric analogies. "They must have intelligence because we can recognize it"
 
@JerryCoffin Well, arguably, they don't have hands, so even if they had a detailed million-year history, they probably couldn't do much with it.
 
Ell
10:45 PM
An ant colony is an organism
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Implementation detail!
 
@Borgleader I think you can redownload the installer and use it to remove
 
@Ell we're a colony of cells!
 
user1646075
@sehe what's the question again? Self-awareness? Having spent a long time with horses, I have a great respect for horse-sense, and also the unique and usually endearing personalities of the beasts. Some of them have personalities you feel ... I hate that horse, (s)he's such a <invective>
 
Ell
Cells can't survive on their own!
 
10:46 PM
intuitively, though
 
@sehe Thanks, I hope it works. That damn update has been waking my computer up during the night for weeks. I thought I just was backlogged on updates but no, that one had been failing for almost 2 months
 
@Ell Ants can.
 
Ell
Can they?
 
@Sofffia It at least attempts to teach and whatnot. And that's the only good thing we can hope to come out of cookie law, after all.
 
Ell
A queen can I know
 
10:47 PM
Agreed
 
Ell
Cos they just start a new one I think
 
humans are just super well placed to take advantage of high intelligence.
 
Monera (/məˈnɪərÉ™/ mÉ™-NEER-É™) is a kingdom that contains unicellular organisms with a prokaryotic cell organization, (having no nuclear membrane), such as bacteria. The taxon Monera was first proposed as a phylum by Ernst Haeckel in 1866. Subsequently, the phylum was elevated to the rank of kingdom in 1925 by Édouard Chatton. The last commonly accepted mega-classification with the taxon Monera was the five-kingdom classification system established by Robert Whittaker in 1969. Under the three-domain system of taxonomy, introduced by Carl Woese in 1977, which reflects the evolutionary history of...
 
Ell
I didn't know workers could
 
high dietary and environmental adaptability, hands
 
10:47 PM
@Ell They all can.
 
user1646075
@Puppy and be very flexible with it. SOMETIMES.
 
Ell
@r.martinho I meant one of our cells can't survive on its own
Like a skin cell or brain cell or something
I'm aware there are single celled organisms
 
it's hard to measure the intelligence of other species when there's not a great deal that their intelligence could result in.
 
the Shakaar resistance cell lasted on its own for like five years
 
10:48 PM
if you were a whale smarter than Einstein, you still can't exactly go around making fire.
 
Ell
Intellegence doesn't necessarily have to result in physical things though
It could just be about information
 
right, but why would you evolve intelligence to have information if you can't act on it to your evolutionary benefit?
 
@Puppy that we notice.
@Puppy Wait. Did Einstein invent fire :) ?!?!?
 
user1646075
@Puppy that kind and level of intelligence is probably not in whales. evolutionary forces for whales probably don't optimise for it.
 
@sehe If you were a whale smarter than Einstein, it would be pretty impossible not to notice human intelligence.
 
10:51 PM
I always like the idea that if we found intelligent life outside our solar system, we might not be able to recognize it. Much as ants wouldn't recognize a human leg as "intelligent life".
@Puppy ^ amazingly that happens to be nice counterpoint to what you said (what you said was spot on, of course, but there are other possibilities)
 
@Puppy I don't think there's any "just" about it. It's largely a matter of what mutations are adaptive--and the answer to that depends in large part upon other adaptations that allow an organism to take advantage of this one.
 
@aclarke Whales are ostensibly already smarter than humans.
So...
 
Whales are smarter than many a phone.
 
@Puppy Not by our measure, no. But I wish people would stop equating "intelligence" to "able to build roads and create the internet", because maybe other species don't want to build roads and create the internet. Perhaps their intelligence is used in entirely different, and no less valuable, ways.
 
user1646075
@sehe heh - it kinda blows my mind to know that crocodiles are excellent caring mothers. Also T-Rex, also spiders...
 
10:52 PM
Hell, perhaps dolphins can start fire with the power of their minds if they want to! Yeah!
@Ell right, that
@Puppy information can have extraordinary evolutionary benefit!
 
@aclarke not all of them. Some just leave the eggs to hatch in a swamp (which constitutes the best care they could give, perhaps)
 
user1646075
@LightnessRacesinOrbit yes - i was pointing out that maths (Einstein's forte) is probably not high on the whale agenda. Their ability to navigate, however, is impresssive
 
Oct 22 '12 at 18:03, by R. Martinho Fernandes
I'm at #256 here http://stackexchange.com/leagues/1/alltime/stackoverflow/2008-07-31/46642?sort=reputationchange#46642. I wonder if I'll get a SO T-shirt sometime.
Trawling through the transcript, found this.
 
@JerryCoffin Well, it's certainly arguable that if we didn't have the adaptations to take advantage of a high intelligence, we wouldn't be intelligent enough to consider how fortunate we are.
 
@aclarke innate understanding of mathsy things doesn't have to involve quantum equations on a blackboard
 
10:54 PM
Took 'em two years to realize my potential.
 
@Puppy Hmm...how does that Douglas Adams line go? Something about: "The humans thought they were more intelligent than dolphins because they got up, went to work, built things, bought cars, and lived in houses whereas dolphins just swam around and played all the time. Oddly, the dolphins thought they were more intelligent than humans for exactly the same reasons." I've undoubtedly gotten the details wrong, but the general idea should be fairly close...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I still haven't received mine -.-
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You haven't realized your potential. By far!
 
user1646075
@sehe they still protect their nest, and also the bubbas, depending on species. I sometimes wonder why they don't see the young ones emerge and think "hmmm - snack time!"
 
that was a month ago now. though I vaguely recall being instructed that it could take a while to ship all the swag out to everyone affected
 
10:55 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Ah, me neither, actually.
 
user1646075
@LightnessRacesinOrbit a whale's navigation is probably a mathematical neural net...
 
@JerryCoffin I think that's just a matter of evolution. Evolutionary pressure should result in a species using any intelligence it has to further it's own cause. If dolphins could build torpedos they'd own the seas.
 
@aclarke well in as much as all mammal brains are, yeah :)
 
..and can communicate over larger distances without base-stations, (though the bandwidth is crap).
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Six to eight weeks.
 
10:55 PM
I mean, humans go to work for a reason.
 
@MartinJames no imgur :(
 
affected :)
So affectionate
 
@Puppy Hah, yeah in your case only cos you got trolled so much for sucking up all dem benefit payments ;p
 
user1646075
@Puppy that's a nice point; unless whales are aggressively bigoted.
 
@Puppy Whales would go to work too if they had a harpoon pointed at them.
 
10:56 PM
lol
going to work over playing all the time is, I feel, probably not a choice in evolutionary terms.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes thanks
 
@Puppy Maybe dolphins could build torpedoes, but are happy with their current situation.
 
did you screenshot the conclusion page or something?
 
@MartinJames I think the whale counts as a base station.
 
user1646075
@LightnessRacesinOrbit birds are spooky too. A recent article in New Scientist showed that many species have magnetic sensors that actually feed into the visual cortex. They actually see shading from the magnetics. This implies it probably goes back at last as far as the dinosaur age, and no doubt further than that too
 
10:58 PM
@JerryCoffin I doubt that their genetic survival cares whether they're happy or not.
 
Playing = Work + Fun
 
@aclarke cool! it also means we fucking missed out -.-
our senses are remarkably limited, when you think about it
 
Hahaha. I was terribly confused I couldn't find the "edit topic" button thingy in the room info. Then it dawned on me.
 
like, relatively speaking
 
user1646075
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I guess swinging from trees didn't need that much accuracy over long distances
 
user1646075
10:59 PM
@sehe suffer!
 
Anyhoops. I was gonna commend the lounge on a night of vintage lounge discussion. I enjoyed it.
3
See you guys around
 
@Puppy Perhaps they've also evolved to the point that they're not longer controlled by primitive urges like species survival.
 
@aclarke I think it's the cumulative effect of swinging on 900 trees to get home....
 

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