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Ell
11:00 PM
what if I want two or more?
 
meh, make it a pair of typeinfos if you want.
 
@StackedCrooked Yeah, TCP is a lot harder to get serious throughput (not to mention just requires a lot of buffer space).
 
user1804599
I'm more worried about people encoding locations and sizes in Rectangle and Circle types, rather than ratio and nothing, respectively.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It's the way in which you do so that elicits that rare kind of general admiration that's so hard to come by. I think it's a gift
 
@Ell Because they're totally unrelated. There's no useful common interface between Squares and Circles.
 
11:01 PM
@StackedCrooked It had better... :-)
 
@Loopunroller wait a sec. When did you change your avatar
 
@JerryCoffin Yep. It's tempting to use huge buffer, but that thrashes the cache :)
 
And the code should just guess when you switch from string literals to PHP code? Why would any of that work? — Shomz 1 hour ago
 
Ell
@puppy right. Which is why single dispatch isn't good enough
 
This is [talking about] the sort of newbie we don't want on SO. Just a total lack of thought.
 
11:02 PM
no, it's why you shouldn't use inheritance to relate unrelated classes.
 
@sehe shrug Pretty common figure of speech around these parts. Perhaps your country is different.
Thanks for jumping to the conclusion that it's just me, though.
 
People have to learn. We don't "not want" them on SO. We don't want them to keep thinking this is how it works
 
@StackedCrooked I look forward to a 10 Gbit satellite connection. Should only need...a few gigabytes worth of space for outstanding packets.
 
Ell
@puppy so I should store the collision shapes how?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Hehehe. I do love to see you squirm. Silly little Nah.
 
11:03 PM
what's wrong with regular static typing and overloading?
 
I don't care how they think it works if they are going to be flipping my burgers
@sehe Who said I'm "squirming"?
 
Nobody had to
 
Thanks for jumping to the conclusion that I was, though.
 
Ell
@puppy you don't know them at compile time
The collision shapes
 
@sehe Nobody could, whilst being truthful.
 
11:04 PM
you do unless you're a moron.
 
@StackedCrooked In case I wasn't clear, I just meant for the TCP sliding window. Of course, that size you need depends on the latency, but with high latency it can get pretty big in a hurry...
 
user1804599
There is nothing wrong with overloading—on dynamic types.
 
But sure take your own guesswork as fact
 
Lol. Maybe it's differen in your country. We wouldn't want to call them retarded, of course.
 
of course
I can't figure out whether I'm hungry or not :/
 
Ell
11:04 PM
@puppy I guess it depends how you store your physics entities
 
there's no need to defer the type until runtime.
 
Guys. I think it's working. We can Denial Of Service in Orbit.
 
Ell
@lightness then eat just in case
 
i'd have to get another delivery
 
Ell
@puppy how would you store physics objects for simulation?
 
11:06 PM
by the type I need to efficiently compute their simulated characteristics.
usually AABB.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Also, I think you could improve your style by varying your use of rhetoric devices. I don't minde the fallacies, but I do if they get too repetitive.
 
Ell
std::vector<circles>, std::vector<convex_polygons>, std::vector<concave_polygons> ...
 
LOL no.
 
Ell
@puppy AABB can't tell you how they collide
 
@Puppy The basic problem is that the number of overloads is quadratic (i.e., with N classes, each class needs N-1 overloads for collisions with the other N-1 types).
 
11:07 PM
@Ell Absolutely it can. Telling you how they collide is the whole point of AABBs.
 
Shute. What am I doing. I'm really getting to the same level. I can feel the troll sense for blood. I've been lured to the dark side.
 
@JerryCoffin Sure, but there's a fixed number of useful classes which is quite low.
and most of them don't need to interact with most other types anyway.
 
@sehe Oh go on then, I'll bite; which fallacy have you made up this time?
 
PSA: I'm going to go back to systematically ignoring LRIO trolls again. It was a good sniff, but that stuff is toxic. I'm not going to make that a habit.
 
you can work just fine with only AABBs in your octree, and then AABB/AABB, ray/AABB, sphere/AAABB, frustum/AABB.
 
11:07 PM
....
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit (Thanks for jumping to the conclusion that I made it up, I guess)
 
@Puppy Not necessarily. In some games, for example, you want to be able to define new shapes for possibly-colliding objects as DLC and such. And the number is potentially quite large (well into the hundreds in some cases).
 
The irony of publicly announcing you'll "ignore me for trolling", when all I'm doing is responding to your abject nonsense, asking you questions about it in order to try to better understand you. I guess I'm the one being sucked in.
So congratulations for that, I guess.
 
right, except pretty much all of those shapes are meshes, and can use the same triangle-mesh logic.
 
user1804599
Hmm, rather than writing a JVM binding for LLVM I could just generate LLVM assembly code and write that to a file.
 
Ell
11:09 PM
@puppy I'm confused. How can I tell if a polygon and a circle are colliding with just AABB?
 
@sehe How are you still not aware of that? I did that like a couple of weeks ago
Lightness even talked about it
 
@sehe I didn't jump to any conclusion. You accuse me of invoking a logical fallacy, but since I did not, you made it up. Your ability to take simple logic and deem it "trolling" is quite remarkable.
 
@JerryCoffin Yep, however, the user can configure window scaling option to increase the window size. Up to a theoretical maximum of 1GB. However, performance peaks at around 1MB. (So it can send ~ 700 segments before it must wait for ACKs.)
 
She said only an utter cunt would pretend to be a girl, the irony of that i don't point out explicitly
 
:D
you got the starring going on it
 
11:10 PM
;D
@LightnessRacesinOrbit yep, 6 or so
 
12 at time of writing
 
@Ell 1. Compute AABBs. 2. Check if AABBs are colliding.
 
who's starring nonsense?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Come come. All in good fun, eh! A bit of your own medicin. For precisely, maybe, a day? In total about 20 minutes. Maybe you should experience this more often. Then you might draw the same conclusion as I just did. It's fun to do, but it gets old. It's boring as heck and - for me - it makes me appear more of a jerk than I want to be.
 
@sehe I have literally no idea what you're talking about right now.
 
11:11 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit That's another one in your top-6 of rhetoric devices.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I'm not suprised.
 
Ell
@puppy that doesn't tell me if the circle is colliding with the polygon
 
Okay, identifying facts is a rhetoric device. Alright mate. Whatever you say!
It seems like almost every conversation we have ends in you going batshit insane. I'm putting an end to our discourses.
 
So tempted.
 
11:11 PM
Enjoy having no sense of logic whatsoever.
strange little boy
 
@StackedCrooked Yup--that's definitely a long ways from the 3 (or so) that used to be typical in most stacks in stock configuration. I haven't checked recently, but I'd bet most are still only set for a dozen or so (and fewer than that wouldn't surprise me a bit).
 
wow I'm feeling starry-eyed
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Are you really though
 
It's pun-eve to day, btw
 
11:13 PM
is it?
 
If you saw a shopping center, you've seen a mall
 
@Ell Depends on how accurately you need the answer and how much time you can spend computing the collision.
 
inb4 horrible, just horrible
 
I... what...?
 
@JerryCoffin actually WS=3 is the default we use.
 
11:13 PM
@Loopunroller I just looked at it for the first time. I know that "blurb" is your avatar. I only just noticed that there's a person in it.
 
honestly is everybody speaking a foreign language?
 
@sehe Ah, k
 
Who might she be?
 
user1804599
Yay, it werks.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit может быть
 
11:15 PM
but if you have arbitrary time then just render the circle as a polygon mesh and use mesh-mesh
 
Ell
@puppy it depends on whether AABB happens to give the right answer for that particular circle and polygon. I want polygon+circle collision detection, not AABB+AABB collision detection
 
@sehe At one time, I wondered whether he had chosen a part to play, and was playing it to the hilt, or had defense mechanisms so thoroughly ingrained that he was really incapable of seeing his own hypocrisy. I've since decided it just doesn't matter though--pointless to worry about it.
 
Ell
Now that you know the requirements, how would you do that?
 
that's not really a requirement, more of an XY thing.
 
Ell
You can't store an AABB for every object because not every object can be represented as an AABB giving correct collision detection
 
11:16 PM
What is the difference between a well dressed man and a dog?
The man wears a suit, the dog just pants
 
Ell
Okay puppy. My requirement is I want correct collision detection on objects of different shapes
 
@StackedCrooked Is it even possible to get latency low enough for WS=3 to make sense at 10 GB?
 
Ell
They might be AABBs, Circles, convex or concave polygons
 
then represent them as polygon meshes and use mesh-mesh.
 
Okay, here comes the worst one: A bicycle can't stand on its own, it's two tyred
 
11:17 PM
its*
 
Ell
@puppy what about the circle?
 
what about it?
 
@JerryCoffin you are making me think..
 
Hey, I want to join in this conversation! AABB AABB AABB AABB AABB ok there I'm part of you guys now
 
Ell
Good luck representing that as a polygon
 
11:18 PM
you can represent it as a polygon mesh with arbitrary accuracy.
 
Ell
Why would you store them all as meshes
When you can store them as what they actually are
 
AABB AABB AABB
 
because a polygon mesh is what they all are.
that's the whole point behind the graphics pipeline, you know.
 
Ell
The circle isn't!
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Are you starring your own posts or somethin'?
 
11:19 PM
we represent everything as triangle meshes.
 
Ell
@puppy who said anything about graphics in this conversation
Find it and quote me please
 
I'm merely pointing out that if you couldn't approximate any shape effectively as a triangle mesh, that system would not work.
but it does, because you can.
 
Ell
Storing a circle as a polygon is harder work than storing it as a radius
And semantically doesn't make sense
 
sure
and implementing multimethods is a lot harder work than just mapping some typeids to a function.
 
@Loopunroller That's not possible. But I was waiting for somebody to accuse me of it.
 
Ell
11:22 PM
@puppy I'm just giving you a valid use case
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I know it's not possible, you know how i meant it.
 
Ell
Implementing lambdas is harder than just writing functors
 
the only use case I'm seeing here is "I should have used overloading or boost::variant but instead want to abuse inheritance"
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit ?!?!
 
Ell
11:22 PM
Boost variant doesn't solve it either
You still have to write visitors iirc
 
oh I'm glad Puppy's back. nobody would ever get any successful programming done without him
 
Writing the visitor overloads = writing the set of methods. It’s all static of course.
 
you can map the index if you want.
 
@JerryCoffin I have a feeling the defense mechanisms might come off when nobody is watching. I wonder what it would be like to be him, at such a time. But yeah, for half strangers, I don't feel like true contact is possible. At least, I don't know how.
 
what it really boils down to is that you're using inheritance for a situation that it's poor at, so it's totally unsurprising that you get poor code back out.
 
Ell
11:25 PM
But open multi methods have a much cleaner syntax, they perform better
 
and FTR, it sure would be nice if C++ could convert an overload set into a visitor or something like that, which is a far more general feature.
 
@Xeo Your time to shine!
 
@StackedCrooked Let's see. 1500x8 = 12,000 bits. At 10 GB/s that's roughly 1.2 microseconds per frame. So three frames covers 3.6 microseconds. At normal wire speed, that's a transmission of ~3600 feet. Probably adequate for most data centers, but almost any transmission between buildings could easily need more.
 
multimethods are not going to perform better than "Read index, cast contents".
 
Ell
@puppy its just making an open set here, I don't think its abuse
 
11:25 PM
> But Dr Chothia doubts evidence gathered in this manner would stand up in court.
 
I got 8.0 * 65536 * (2**3) / (10 * 1000 ** 3) = 0.0004194304
 
@sehe lol
 
if you cannot operate on the base class alone, then it is abuse.
 
@Sofffia don't tell me that happened :)
 
in your world, I cannot add my own Shape derivative because your multimethods don't include overloads for it.
 
Ell
11:26 PM
What is an open alternative to boost variant then?
 
your interface is a lie.
probably boost::any.
 
@Sofffia what??
 
Ell
@puppy the whole point is that you can
 
@JerryCoffin For a local test latency is about 4- 6ms. So window scale must be set higher than 3.
 
user1804599
11:26 PM
@Puppy you don't want to be able to.
 
Ell
You add them yourself
 
OMG can you not be clueless just once?
 
^follow the bear
 
@StackedCrooked 65536? I was thinking in terms of regulation (1500 byte) packets.
 
Ell
@puppy you write your own overloads for the function
 
11:27 PM
right.
 
user1804599
If you add a derived class, you have to implement all methods for it.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit What's confusing now?
 
and when is the compiler going to see those overloads?
 
You have arrows.
 
65536 is the maximum window size in bytes. 1460 is the maximum tcp segment size.
 
user1804599
11:27 PM
Whether they are defined within or outside of the base class.
 
Follow the arrows.
 
@Sofffia everything :(
 
at runtime, when I load my new derived class by a DLL?
I'm totally seeing how the compiler is going to make that work.
 
user1804599
You cannot do this unless the compiler knows all types and methods.
 
I'm going to take a break from the Lounge. There's just too much bullshit and arguing and trolling and I can't take it any more.
Five minutes ought to do it.
brb
 
11:28 PM
lol
 
or what if I JIT some code that includes a new derived class?
 
Lightness so drama
... for 5 minutes.
 
@JerryCoffin right i'm not making sense
 
or hell, what if I just define them in a different TU?
 
Time I started doing something else.
 
user1804599
11:28 PM
The JIT is a compiler, so if it knows all those things, that's fine, but you'll get errors at JIT time instead of at AOT time.
 
Ell
@puppy the linker/loader does it
 
uh huh.
 
Also why does the starboard say "made in Lightness of Orbit"
 
so the linker has gone from "Copy bytes; patch up static pointers" to "Language-specific semantics and code-generation at runtime"?
 
@StackedCrooked 1500 bytes is maximum Ethernet payload size.
 
user1804599
11:29 PM
Language-agnostic linkers are a joke.
 
@StackedCrooked Fair enough.
 
user1804599
Fuck low-level shit.
 
@JerryCoffin Yes, but throughput is measured by L5 data rate.
 
Ell
@puppy I'm confused. What code is it generating?
It hooks up the look up table yes
 
right, except it doesn't know how big the lookup table needs to be to accomodate arbitrary extensions from dynamically loaded code.
 
Ell
11:31 PM
But the linker does that anyway doesn't it? I thought the whole point of it was to do that
When you load a shared library or whatever
 
and it can't move the lookup table because your code has existing pointers to it.
 
Ell
@puppy I don't know the details of the implementation to be perfectly honest
But it works so :P
 
I doubt that it does work terribly well.
 
Ell
I mean I don't know what to say. Its already been done and shown to be performant
 
@LucDanton he should shine at the committee meetings :S /cc @Xeo
 
Ell
11:33 PM
@puppy why do you doubt that? Bias?
 
@StackedCrooked Yes, but the sliding window is primarily to cover in-flight packets. Also, thinking about it, I should have cut the distance I figured in half (time for ACK to return). For example, if it takes a minimum of 10 microseconds to get a packet ACKed, then your sliding window needs to cover at least 10 microseconds, or you start losing throughput because your outbound packets get paused waiting on ACKs.
 
@Puppy Were you finally able to log into Nomic?
 
probably experience
 
Ah I feel so much better!
Hi all! How have you been????
 
Waiting for you
Sitting
Studying the prey
 
11:36 PM
fucking with the linker is a fast way to fail
ah here we go
> Outside embedded systems, dynamically linked libraries are almost
universally used with C++. Thus, a design for open-methods that
does not allow for DLLs is largely theoretical. We do not currently
have an implementation supporting dynamic linking
IOW we don't have an implementation.
 
Ell
Idk
I thought the cppcon guy said he had it working with dynamic linking
Anyway, I still think there are use cases
 
unordered_map<typeinfo, function<sig>> works just fine with dynamic linking and code generation, and doesn't require re-writing vast quantities of existing toolchain.
 
@JerryCoffin But once it receives an ack it's allowed to send one packet again. So it reaches this state where it's receiving one and sending one packet at a time. I noticed that it's faster if I buffer my sends a little. Say, wait for 10 acks and then send 10 packets.
And after a while the congestion window grows only 1 byte per ack.
 
Ell
I'm sure I can find a nicer way of writing it anyhow
 
bedtime
night, trolls
 
11:43 PM
Don't go!
 
Nite Light.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hi
I'm also off. 1:46am. Work tomorrow. Night all
 
user1804599
 
Ell
@Puppy what does signature look like?
if we're checking for collision between two shapes for example
and we don't want to use the terrible Cat : Animal thing
 
I know stars race in orbit but that doesn't mean @LightnessRacesinOrbit should be allowed to hog the starboard like that D:
 
Ell
11:56 PM
I need to read rule of zero again
 
@Ell Theres a rule about how many girlfriends I have ?
 
Ell
Aww
I have 0 girlfriends also
Poor us
 

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