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11:01 PM
man. Is it even possible to teach reference types without teaching objects first?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yup--if that had been the only problem. When it was only one of three, and the gains I was seeing were, frankly, questionable at best. Well, I wrote one of those comments explaining why I'd left the code the way it was, and decided to live with it.
 
@Sofffia Yeah, OK, but I cannot debug that sort of shit.
 
You don't need to debug games, people will buy them anyway
 
@corvid int&
 
they don't know pointers either, and it has to be in java
 
11:05 PM
then you might be in the wrong room
 
`int&` has no pointers either.
It has a reference to an object.
@corvid Then, by definition, yes: all reference types derive from Object.
 
> you should be made constantly aware of the full horror of what you are doing
that says it all I guess
 
@corvid I'd try to enforce Andy's quote, but I don't have time to discuss the full horror of what you're doing (teaching Java, I mean).
 
11:09 PM
lol
 
@JerryCoffin I think it's safe. AFAIR I don't think he'll succeed
 
I don't know how it's possible to explain anything in java without explaining objects first :| I must not be very good at teaching things
 
^ that.
27 mins ago, by sehe
> World Modeling is the equivalent of self-help books for programming; trying to engineer by analogy, engineer by storytelling - as opposed to engineering by engineering
Fits right in. Somehow I think this is what happens. People who don't /really/ see what's going on, and never learned to label the small building blocks, they are desperate to tell stories. It leads to cargo-culting in the most elementary form (I can't talk about anything without making it "touchable", i.e. about objects)
 
I'm not even considered to be a 'real' engineer by the guys/gals from RR/JCB. "Oh, software, right, we actually make stuff":(
 
whatcha mean sehe? I'm making some resources for a class I TA. Dunno what exactly to say other than a few brief examples. Most tutorials I see online are more like "here's an example, now go do it"
 
11:14 PM
That's the culture that reinforces the problem.
 
what is necessary to teach for very very beginners?
 
There's a reason we like to laugh about the prototypical Java programmer.
And it's not their fault! There's a reason why they end up like that.
And college is a big factor in that.
 
That programming sucks and they'll die alone
 
(Hint: It's equally bad with C++. It's just that, only the ones who grasp it on their own will survive)
 
11:15 PM
@MartinJames bet they wouldn't want to drive a car without software, or a get on a plane without software, or ...
 
Also references are names for objects take it as you will
 
@sehe I think it's nearly inevitable. Most modern systems are sufficiently complex that nearly all of us almost inevitably work with abstractions of the real things a great deal of the time. Even though I've probably done more hardware-level engineering than 99% of programmers (e.g., written Verilog and VHDL) I still do it most of the time. IMO, the main trick isn't to avoid it--it's to know when you are dealing with an abstraction, and where that abstraction is likely to leak.
 
@AndyProwl inorite - no matter how much I argue that their massive aero engines would be unmanageable without software, I'm still several steps below on the ladder:(
 
@JerryCoffin I think you're right. We can't all be bit fiddlers
 
@Andy cars can drive just fine without software.
 
11:18 PM
Cars probably drive better without software
 
And planes can land in the middle of the Atlantic without fuel just fine.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not seen a carburettor for many years;(
 
@sehe Even the lowest-level bit fiddlers don't understand most hardware very well at all. I certainly didn't until I designed a couple of CPUs--and even then I only really understood really small, simple CPUs. With a modern desktop (or even mobile) one, I only know enough to realize how ignorant I am.
 
@JerryCoffin The thing is people break into heart tremors and heavy sweating if they reach the edge of their abstractions. If you're gonna teach the concepts, you should probably be comfortable looking over the edge. (Picturing the bungee jump instructor with a phobia of height)
 
Planes were flyin around before computers
 
11:19 PM
Air Transat Flight 236 was an Air Transat flight bound for Lisbon, Portugal from Toronto, Canada that lost all power while flying over the Atlantic Ocean on August 24, 2001. The Airbus A330-243 suffered a complete power loss due to a fuel leak caused by improper maintenance. Captain Robert Piché, 48, an experienced glider pilot, and First Officer Dirk de Jager, 28, flew the plane to a successful emergency landing in the Azores, saving all 306 people (293 passengers and 13 crew) on board. Most of the passengers on the flight were Canadians visiting Europe and Portuguese expatriates returning to...
 
@JerryCoffin Butttt, you are comfortable enough and don't panic when you are asked to explain some basic language features
 
@Martin diesel engines run without carburettors and without software :P
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes next time I'll go to the US I'll think of that, thanks :P
@CatPlusPlus I wouldn't get on one of those
 
@sehe Maths and physics taught me how to deal with the limits of a model!
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Metric system turns planes into gliders
 
11:22 PM
It was an assumed skill once CS and programming were taught.
 
@CatPlusPlus What?
 
@sehe There is that. Yes, I think it really is useful to have what I'd think of as a "soft" edge to the limits of your knowledge--when you reach the limit, it shouldn't just be a matter of knowing nothing more; it should be a matter of knowing less and less detail, until you get to a point where there's nothing left (but hopefully that's well outside the area you normally need to care about).
 
lol
@CatPlusPlus Into dwarves!
 
Gliding dwarves
 
@LucDanton Sweet. Let's tell @corvid to go teach Lisp
 
11:23 PM
I suck at functional programming
 
@sehe Scheme, to be exact. No need for Object anyway.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not today, they don't:)
 
Forth is the best language anyway
 
@MartinJames Oh yes, they do.
 
Dammit it's 1:30 again
 
11:24 PM
My dad drives one from 1959 regularly.
 
Ell
That German b thing
2
Its ss capitalised or something?
 
@JerryCoffin I like to phrase it positively: I like to know pointers or island beyond the "border". Ideally, enough to know who to go to, what keywords or subjects to research, what patents to look for etc.
 
@Ell No, it's its own letter.
 
@CatPlusPlus What happened to Factor
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Air Transat was only a partial software design failure. If the flight crew had not persisted in pumping fuel from the tanks with no leak into the tank with the leak, here would not have been such a big issue.
 
Ell
11:25 PM
Why do I think it has something to do with ss. Hmm
 
@MartinJames Er, nothing about software.
 
@Ell It stems from a ligature for double-ess. Capitalisation doesn’t enter into it.
 
It's totally pilot error.
Simple proof: the fix was changing the flight manual to consider such situations.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes The injectors are solenoid/piezo servos driven by the engine control computer.
 
Think æ/Æ.
 
11:27 PM
Done
 
Ell
Ahh okay cheers
 
Just a Question. If ever, the manager of your manager was not to accept Undefined Behaviour. He had all blockaded the code with catch(...) and Microsoft compilation flags so as Access Violations are caught. If he was to challenge you, what would you do ? or say ?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes OK, the root cause was faulty maintenance, but it was exacerbated by poor avionics and pilot error.
 
I forget: also a ligature for sz. Hence the name: das Eszett.
 
@LucDanton Only in medieval texts, though.
 
11:30 PM
@Ell Because the letter is being replaced by 'ss' in modern texts.
by state decree, as I recall
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes The fix was to flag up such data as a fuel leak instead of confusing warnings about fuel imbalance and the thick/cold oil resulting from excessive fuel flow through the fuel/oil heat-exchanger.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Don’t think so. Which part do you mean, ligature or sz?
 
@StephaneRolland Sorry, I don't follow. I wouldn't accept UB in code either, though those measures are not sufficient to prevent it (and cause their own issues, most likely). As for my boss's boss "challenging me", I don't understand what you mean by that.
 
@LucDanton It's only used as a ligature in Medieval texts. There, it's a ligature between the medieval long s and z, yes.
 
Right, not a ligature nowadays.
 
11:34 PM
@AndyProwl Oh, wow, it literally is "game programming is special".
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I haven't really watched the video, just stopped at random points to make fun of the slides
 
@AndyProwl Once upon a time, I said something to my manager about "being lazy". He replied: "in this case it was more efficiency than laziness." I think pretty much the same applies here.
 
To be fair, that's absolutely true.
 
A best practice reduces to true/false. Makes sense.
 
11:37 PM
Wait, no it isn't
Never mind
bedtime for me
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Doesn't bode well. I mean to the extent that it is true, that's hardly "special" for game dev
 
@JerryCoffin Good point, especially because it means I don't have to feel guilty for being lazy
(bullshit, I still feel guilty)
but I'll survive it. Anyway time for bed
good night everyone
 
@AndyProwl G'night.
 
Ell
I fixed my java problems yay
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit The boss's boss was the author of important parts of the software. It has run ok for a lot of clients. But has caused problems only for some clients, only when heavy load. He has asked me in public if ever the bugs I was talking about were really even happening. I have dozens of dumps that shows dangling pointers thx to windbg. But I wonder what to answer to him when he says "it has always worked for ten years".
If he has tried to protect the code against Access Violations... What counter arguements can I give ?
 
user1646075
11:48 PM
@StephaneRolland The only real protection is correctness. Recovery is a poor second. Sounds like it's 'survived' on lightly loaded clients - faults like that can be tolerated or ignored by people who just want to get the job done. When it escalated due to load - reaches a critical level of failure that starts to shit people........
 
@sehe People routinely note that optimization is nearly irrelevant at least 90% of the time. They much more often miss the corollary to that: when optimization does matter, it usually matters a lot. If there's a part that's unique (or at least unusual) in game dev, it's that the performance critical areas aren't nearly as well sequestered from the rest of the application (usually, anyway). From what I've seen, that stems both from real limitations and from poorly chosen abstractions.
 
user1646075
i would be telling him, it's time the software stopped surviving, and started working properly.
 
user1646075
also anyone who claims their software is correct and fault-free is liar.
 
@StephaneRolland appearing to run fine when you crash from time to time is a sign of MUCH deeper memory corruption which is usually a sign that your application is already in a bad state.
 
user1646075
also anyone who claims their software is correct and fault-free is liar.
2
 
11:51 PM
gist: “I want it as fast as possible”, 2013-04-11 14:37:07Z
int main(){}
> pls copyleft
WTF is this comment
 
user1646075
Just from what you've said, I think the uber-boss needs to see or be reminded of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egoless_programming
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes great.... now we have to issue a DMCA notice as that's a derivative work of int main(){ puts("hello world"); }
 
user1646075
@R.MartinhoFernandes "Copyleft (a play on the word copyright) is the practice of using copyright law to offer the right to distribute copies and modified versions of a work and requiring that the same rights be preserved in modified versions of the work."
 
Ell
How do you make friends with strangers?
 
@aclarke I know what it is.
 
Ell
11:55 PM
Like if you don't have a place of work or similar to make friends in
 
@Ell How do you make friends with non-strangers?
 
user1646075
@Ell throw screwed up wads of paper at them.
 
Ell
What do you do?
 
user1646075
@R.MartinhoFernandes ok then. Ummm, humour? I lolled. slightly
 
Ell
@r.martinho you see them lots which makes it easier to build friendship over time imho
I guess I didn't actually mean strangers
 
11:56 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Silliness.
 
user1646075
@Ell talk to them. Ask them about their grandmother. Notice little cues they give about their life - happy or concerning - and probe them about it. Probe deeply. Act like you care.
 
user1646075
then screw them over for whatever you can get.
 
@Ell You find such a place!
 
user1646075
@Ell oh, so we don't count?
 
Ell
You do count but I can't talk about things on here like I can when I know its not easy for the whole world to hear
 
user1646075
11:59 PM
public libraries esp around uni's are full of 20-30ish students. Take a laptop and make occasional eye contact.
 
user1646075
Cafe's. Take a laptop and make occasional eye contact.
 
lol, now he says using a lambda to avoid repetition in a function makes performance questionable because he heard some compilers will make heap allocations to store things captured by reference.
 

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