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12:00
@thecoshman I don't think so
it's just processing touch events
@BartekBanachewicz I was joking. You are physically touching your laptop, which sense touch input to the emulated window... so it's emulated touch.
I made a "universal" svn wrapper:
#!/bin/bash
svn17 info . 1>/dev/null 2>&1 && svn17 "$@" || svn18 "$@"
It works surprisingly well :)
Eww using both && and || without parentheses.
@R.MartinhoFernandes @CatPlusPlus what does 'rebake post' do?
Rebakes post
12:07
Edits bugged out on mobile o_O
@CatPlusPlus into a biscuit?
The fuck. It's not mobile.
I can't edit bodies anywhere.
just you :P
I've edited as you
So it should be fine
12:09
I mean, I edit, but then it doesn't.
Or not
Nevermind, UI updates before it ACKs the edit
thanks jeff
oh my lord
¬_¬ this thing is riddle with shit
1.0 quality software
It 500s for some reason
oh, nice that you can undo a flag
Ell
Ell
Gender Bender DNA Twister Extreme: desura.com/games/gender-bender-dna-twister-extreme
12:12
Now it works.
It fucks up if the title has "Poll:" in it.
I've done nothing
> Welcome to Lounge — thanks for starting a new conversation!
I'm getting this shit for like 4th time
FFS cosh, let me test this shit.
IM A FUCKING ADMIN
> Body is invalid; try to be a little more descriptive
ahaha
@PolymorphicPotato yolo
:P
12:14
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol, clearly it's a single user system. Jeff must like bulletin boards
K, forget polls.
I've set all ~minimum entropy~ to 0
After two days of use, my opinion of Discourse is that it is riddled with bugs and missing features.
Why is it still doing checks god
Wow
wow
It actually detects Poll: in the title and does some processing on it
Yes.
It works if you do it right.
But if you don't, it just goes bananas.
12:17
Post body needs to have a list in it
I know. I made a few before.
Seems to be working, I don't know what that 500 was
But you can't make one from an edit.
Not even if you rebake it.
Of course
So, fuck that.
12:18
Let's just agree on standardised post format for voting
Ell
Ell
what is this? o.o
We'll worry about it when we have 1000 players
And the game is going into 5th year
agoranomic.org this is crazy btw
So far the worst feature of Discourse appears to be Jeff Atwood.
5
@CatPlusPlus Yeah, I've seen that before.
> Although the game has been won on over 60 occasions
yeah...
@CatPlusPlus oh very quickly when votes are to be done blind
Are they though
12:24
question: who thought light up keyboards was a good idea?
@CatPlusPlus not to start with
@thecoshman me?
equally, they are not not hidden to start with.
@SamDeHaan why.....?
@thecoshman because sometimes it is dark, and I do not want to turn on a light?
¬_¬ yes I know you can just turn them off, but I still have to pay for those lights!
You look at keyboards?
:P
12:26
I can handle the qwerty/numbers without needing to look, but some of the other stuff I need to remind myself.
I often don't have any light on in my room. Just the screens on.
I turn on a light for soldering, though.
A room full of haskell fans is probably not the best place to ask but what do you guys think about the expected proposal?
I leave lights on as I like being able to see
@bamboon They would have to evaluate it first, and being haskell fans... they use lazy evaluation
Ell
Ell
aghh my toe is borked
12:30
@Mgetz lulz
@thecoshman Screens are enough for that.
@R.MartinhoFernandes If you have 6, yes ^^
Ell
Ell
Screens emit a harsh light
if you can't see your keyboard you need a light on.
s/you/I/
@bamboon I’m not fond of the callback hell that comes from HoF.
@LucDanton Yeah, I don't like that, too. It reminded me of node.js. Since I have seen boost::asios coroutine interface I have quite an objection to too many callbacks anyway.
12:41
@bamboon you're not supposed to have that in Node, just ftr
For having used expected a bit, the least that can be said about it is that it’s type-safe, closed-world, C-style error handling. Useful, if not sexy. I wouldn’t mind a Standard one so that it crops up in APIs.
@BenjaminGruenbaum Ah, interesting. I don't know much about node but whenever I see exmaples it's like {{{{{{{{}}}}}}}
@bamboon lol, idiots write bad code in every language
I hope there will be a .value() that does something sensible (e.g. rethrow exceptions and std::exception_ptr, rethrow error codes in std::system_error). So far the proposal handles std::exception_ptr only.
@BenjaminGruenbaum Real programmers can write Fortran in any language!
12:44
@JerryCoffin I wrote a fortran parser once, it was horrible.
@CatPlusPlus I AM THE OP
somehow, whenever I need to add a cross-platform feature, I implement it for android and iOS and forget WP and W8 exist :\
I always have to go back after remembering
@LucDanton I think there is a value in the proposal. Though, doesn't the proposal go in the total other direction that you shouldn't use the value functions and instead use the callbacks?
@BenjaminGruenbaum ...and (no insult to you intended) it still probably didn't handle all the corner cases correctly.
@LucDanton Saying that it's "type-safe C-style error handling" is like saying "I did a fantastically type-safe shit today". I guess I don't see why anyone would want C-style error handling regardless of the lack of type-safety.
12:50
type-safe and C-style really shouldn't be used in one sentence
Also Blizzard is hiring.
> Excellent written and verbal communication skills in Polish and English
@Puppy Kernel mode developers
Sounds like a scam.
@bamboon A .value() is useful for getting from the closed world of expected to the exception open world of exceptions. (It doesn’t have to be value though, if we want to still raise a particular bad_unexpected for that one.)
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's on their official website
@Puppy Closed world means you can statically check all code paths relatively easily.
12:52
@Mgetz Yes, but fuck them. I'm not gonna break my nice language because some niche wants something broken.
@LucDanton I see
ITT Puppy is Jeff Atwood.
@LucDanton You could do the same with optional inferred checked exceptions.
@Puppy I'd rather they use the Super-C subset of C++ than C. But I doubt they'd use wide for kernel mode anyway
> implying your language is nice
12:54
@LucDanton Also, I don't get why you couldn't do this with regular exceptions.
I found out why we won't switch to C++11 :(
because lambdas and move semantics are not necessary :(
also, I'm not sure that it would be worth it to statically check all code paths if that involves manually handling error codes on all code paths.
@Puppy Depends. You can check some things, but perhaps not all. Subtyping is tricky.
@JerryCoffin of course it doesn't it was a pet project.. I didn't write a commercial fortran compiler :P
@Puppy You have to send a rover to another planet. How willing are you to review your code?
12:58
@LucDanton Not at all, when I can make the compiler automatically generate correct code for me. Why waste time reviewing manually-written code instead of just generating correct code?
Because subtyping is tricky.
wtf does "necessary" mean in this context
ok
I don't see how subtyping makes exception handling problematic here.
you can always fall back to catch(...) or just not catch anything, which is always correct for all subtypes of everything.
eh why are so SO questions terrible
13:00
@BartekBanachewicz it's the creation teams (i.e. those who program gameplay and so on) that are reluctant to change
if something works without C++11, there's no need to switch
sorta like that
@BenjaminGruenbaum Even commercial compilers often had bugs, back in the dusty corners. Maybe not so much any more, but certainly did back when I wrote Fortran.
hah
yes, in those bygone ages, compilers had bugs.
can you imagine living in such a world?
13:01
No. But I can use MSVC.
@BartekBanachewicz Sturgeon's law. Only it's more like 99.9%, not just 90%.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I have no idea what that expands to.
@JerryCoffin that makes sense, I find bugs in JS runtimes pretty much on a semi daily basis and those are some of the most worked on compilers in the world
@Puppy Do What I Mean.
@thecoshman have you poked Bartek today?
13:04
@R.MartinhoFernandes he did
after I get back home okay
Just checking.
also I already know what I want to propose
just have to see how to formalize it
> This panel will only appear for your first 2 posts.
Appears every single time.
I could file bugs, but then I could also get a paid job in a QA team elsewhere.
5
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol
No software is perfect, but there's a difference between not-perfect and every-single-action-reveals-a-different-bug.
13:09
Filing a bug as a way to contribute back to a project you appreciate is very different from filing 600 bugs to serve as QA for a project that doesn't appreciate the users who aren't Jeff.
@R.MartinhoFernandes welcome to SO, where you're a QA team specialist every day :D
@SamDeHaan You mean, like MSVC?
Yeah, I mentioned similar feelings about MSVC before.
How many agree that uniform initialization is non-uniform BS and should only be used for aggregate-initialization and initializer-list-constructors? One guy in the forum stated that the majority of C++ programmers thinks they should use list-initialization wherever possible.
The main job of a user is to complain about software.
13:13
@Loopunroller no.
@Puppy Well, except the Jeff.
Unfortunately, it seems he was right :o
@Loopunroller Without trying to draw a conclusion about exactly what should be used when, I think it's safe to say that the notion of "uniform initialization" was over-sold.
My pizza was good, but it was too large
@SamDeHaan Doubt there was ever a Jeff-equivalent for MSVC, they don't care about any users :D
@TonyTheLion First World Problems.
13:14
@Puppy Yep
@TonyTheLion So share some with me. I need some breakfast soon.
@JerryCoffin I would love to share with you, but there's no technological way to quickly send you the rest of my pizza, yet.
@JerryCoffin Yes, that is a fact by now. The most direct proof of that is std::allocator<>::construct: It can't (shouldn't) use list-initialization. Guess why.
@TonyTheLion The main job of this user is wining (the process of converting wine into urine).
@JerryCoffin hahahahah
13:16
@Loopunroller Because uniform initialization is shit. But we all already knew that.
So @Loopunroller, how many loops have you unrolled?
so
@Puppy ...but you don't agree you shouldn't use UI everywhere possible?
what do you guys think of int64 & int64 say, to indicate a tuple of int64 and int64?
@Loopunroller no.
not bitwise and
13:18
@R.MartinhoFernandes But it's written in ruby so it must work correctly right
Wide doesn't have bitwise and, as a distinct operator.
@Puppy { int64, int64 }?
& and && are the same thing, and I haven't gotten around to implementing &&.
@Puppy What's wrong in (int64, int64) ?
Confusable with a signature.
13:19
@Griwes Already has meaning.
@TonyTheLion I'm actually a condom unroller, but all cool names with those terms were already taken
@Puppy It’s not subtyping of the exceptions that I’m concerned with, but subtyping of function types (i.e. I’m sceptical that the compiler can deduce the most useful exception annotations). That being said you did mention optionally inferred annotations.
I have to go for groceries for now.
@Puppy In what language are & and && equivalent?
@Loopunroller Ah, that makes sense.
@Loopunroller Mine.
13:19
Your language is shit
Well, I was thinking of expanding it to | later as a language-implemented variant, maybe.
you were supposed to stop me next time I were to suggest anything to Wide
@Puppy How is it called, Puppython?
13:20
why didn't you
I actuall started thinking about it and remembered the language is shit
@Puppy Did you misclick?
that's 30 seconds of my life wasted.
@R.MartinhoFernandes maybe.
@Loopunroller its called Wide and its crap
considering that the vast majority of the language has yet to be decided, I fail to see how it's possible for it to definitively exhibit any particular property
13:21
@TonyTheLion I'm not sure whether i can take your opinion serious
@BartekBanachewicz It could have been worse. Even useless thoughts are still thinking, so it was more useful than 90% of work.
@Puppy You mean like, "unfinished"? :P
@Loopunroller good call. :)
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, some parts of it are somewhat finished, so not all of it exhibits the unfinished property :P
@TonyTheLion What does that mean?
13:22
@Loopunroller It means you spotted well that I was teasing Puppy about Wide being crap.
@Puppy but you've already given us enough info on it to conclude it's shit
I've never used Wide, so how hell could I even judge
for the 1000th time
Yeah, it doesn't take a lot of info to conclude that.
@TonyTheLion Ah, thanks. English isn't my first language, y'know
13:23
Is it Haskell? No? Shit.
you don't have to use a language to conclude it's shit.
has anyone here used MUMPS? Do you really need to use it to form an opinion?
MUMPS is, however, a finished language used for a long time by experienced people, all of whom claim it is shit.
that is not true for Wide.
hey robot
what do you think of a feature where you can incrementally re-build for different targets/other compile options?
Wide at best will be yet another uninteresting imperative impure language.
Ok, we fucking get it.
Your horse is made of functional programming.
okay okay :F
There are interesting imperative languages, mind you.
13:26
if by that you mean, in C++ my programs already exhibit a pretty high degree of purity, then yes.
that's the best kind of horse!
@Puppy pretty high degree, lol.
@BartekBanachewicz It's purish!
language support for purity isn't terrifically interesting IMO, since you don't need it to program a pure function or use it in a pure fashion.
@BartekBanachewicz Haskell programs have IO Monad, so they're not exactly totally pure either.
Yes, they are.
13:27
anyway I gotta go have my eyes tested
They are not necessarily pure because unsafePerformIO exists.
@Puppy You don't write all of your code against IO.
reading from a file is an impure operation, as long as it's possible to read from a file in Haskell, then not all Haskell programs are totally pure.
how the hell can you tell, having absolutely no idea how to write in Haskell?
13:29
@BartekBanachewicz I didn't write all my C++ code to be impure either. So I don't really see what's different between "I rarely use impurity" and "I rarely use impurity".
anyway really gotta go now
@Puppy yes I know you don't see
that's plainly, blatantly obvious
Most Haskell programs are certainly not referentially transparent.
but you won't admit to that, you'll just keep being ignorant.
@PolymorphicPotato Er, most are, because most don't use unsafePerformIO or unsafeInterleaveIO and friends.
@BartekBanachewicz ...just like the rest of us are (just about slightly different subjects in each case).
13:30
Haskell programs can't read files.
For anyone who cares (probably nobody), I am still doing the bathroom & I have to hand over the keys tomorrow. It's 11:30pm & I will probably have to spend another 2 hours here ...
Running the same Haskell program twice can give different results no matter how much unsafePerformIO and friends are avoided.
Never heard a plumber/tiler doing all nighter, but there you go ...
@JerryCoffin Except puppy apparently thinks it's perfectly OK, and I think it's the worst thing ever.
@chmod711telkitty Sounds like time to work, not chat.
13:31
@PolymorphicPotato wut?
@PolymorphicPotato No, it cannot. It always produces the same IO () object.
@BartekBanachewicz Then explain to me how a superconductor works and how to build a fusion power plant.
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's what main returns.
@Puppy I don't feel competent enough in that subject.
gosh, bartek.
13:32
@Puppy Go to your eye appointment.
you're so goddamn ignorant.
@JerryCoffin I'm really off now.
@Puppy you so fucking don't get it it's not even funny.
It's not the result of the final program, mostly because they are invoked by operating systems and operating systems don't know how to deal with IO ().
What if they do? (Don't answer)
@JerryCoffin take occasional rests are good for health, especially when you are stressed. Also the drive home is about 20 minutes without much traffic ...
13:33
@R.MartinhoFernandes You're making the same mistakes I do
The main function and all others are referentially transparent.
@PolymorphicPotato That's what a Haskell program consists of.
why blue collar workers don't do all nighters (unless doing the night shifts) ... I mean the noise level is almost neglectable when there's plenty space between you and the neighbours ...
@BartekBanachewicz ...and there's quite a bit you clearly don't "get" either. What of it? Purity has its points, but it's a tool, not a goal in itself.
main strictly speaking doesn't return
Er.
It's not main :: Void
13:36
@JerryCoffin enforced purity and writing against monads is quite different from writing some parts of the code in a pure manner. (IMHO)
@R.MartinhoFernandes main is an IO action
@R.MartinhoFernandes Exactly.
@BartekBanachewicz Value, niladic function, potatoes.
potatoes!
and a burrito, yes
Btw it doesn't always produce the same IO () value.
13:38
Yes, it does.
Since it can be IO a for any a. :P
@BartekBanachewicz ...or somewhat different. Or not at all different--depending on how much of the code you write in a pure manner. Self-enforced purity can produce the same result as compiler-enforced purity. But as I said: purity is a tool, not a goal in itself.
okay, that's right.
self.db.execute('''
    select %s :: int
         , %s :: int
        -- %s :: int
         , %s :: int
''', 1, 2, 3)
Ahahah this fails. What a horrible piece of shit.
13:42
eh, GDB went bonkers again
I don't understand what's so difficult about using actual parameterized statements in database abstraction libraries.
> The kickee does not have to be in the room at the time they're being kicked (requiring this would allow trolls to prevent being banned by entering a room, quickly saying "TABS ARE BETTER THAN SPACES!!!!one", and immediately leaving the room again before anyone could have taken action).
lol
TABS ARE BETTER THAN SPACES!!!!one
@R.MartinhoFernandes oi
13:52
@R.MartinhoFernandes Remember that even owners can be kicked... :-)
Ell
Ell
Hi guys
@FredOverflow Anyone who claims tabs are better than spaces indeed needs some good kick in the nuts.
Ell
Ell
My new phone is the bomb
@Ell fucking terrorist
@PolymorphicPotato I find the thought very amusing that this might indeed occur.
13:53
@Ell My new phone in the womb
@PolymorphicPotato tabs are teh best zomg
I like tabbed browsing, indeed.
Does IE have tabs already?
sure it does
@BartekBanachewicz You'd be fucking terrorists too if you realized how hot some of those terrorist chicks are...
13:55
@JerryCoffin I had to read that twice. Imagine my face after the first read. :P
Kill all terrorists.
@PolymorphicPotato now you're terrorizing
Analyse DNA of babies and kill them right away if they'll become terrorists.
@BartekBanachewicz :-) My mission here is complete (for now).
Preventing is better than curing.
13:56
@R.MartinhoFernandes Thats not even funny. :-/
@JerryCoffin this makes me think that occasionally I should have an annotation for non pure functions: corrupt
@Mgetz mutant
freak
@PolymorphicPotato No way to tell from the DNA. They might grow up to write PHP instead (not that this means they should be allowed to live).
then they would still be terrorists, no?
@BartekBanachewicz PHP fills me with disgust, not terror.
13:58
@JerryCoffin and so skynet was born...
Skynet can only be implemented by Stallman.
@BartekBanachewicz proposal 301 done yet?
@JerryCoffin actually... Do you really have such a big gap on your "language awesomeness" list between say, PHP and JS/Ruby/Lua/whatever-non-haskell-language?
> Rarely depicted visually in any of the Terminator media, Skynet's operations are almost exclusively performed by war-machines, cyborgs (usually a Terminator), and other computer systems, with the goal of exterminating the human race.
IIRC PHP is your pet hate when it comes to languages.
13:59
Someone implement Skynet ASAP pl0x thx.

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