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16:00
and maybe, just maybe, the world should focus on some other language that's less powerful but actually useful
Or maybe you should just shut up and remove the blinkers.
@BartekBanachewicz clearly it's not, as clang has done it for *nix systems and is very compliant in terms of code generation.
that's just the compiler
Yes, yes, clang has done something.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I am not sure what you mean by the latter part.
16:06
most languages benefit from the fact they have a single company or group behind them. That means the latest version IS the latest standard. C++ and ECMAScript have no such luxury however and it causes random bitching as a result.
maybe that's a problem then
look I don't want to criticize C++ as a language right now, but it has issues that aren't getting solved
The random bitching? Yes, it is.
@R.MartinhoFernandes What's being done to stop it?
"Look, I don't want to be xenophobic, but Poles are dumb"
what
I don't see how that's related in the slightest.
16:09
"I'm not racist, but blacks are stupid"
It's related in that it has the same sentence structure.
oh that
lemme explain then
You don't have to.
I meant I don't want to criticize the product of the language creation process, but the process itself.
There's an easy way to fulfill your expressed desire to not criticise something: you don't.
16:10
you mean, the process where they kept compatibility with huge swathes of existing code?
because that's pretty much the main driver of most of the key turns-out-bad decision in C++
@R.MartinhoFernandes Clang has actually done a lot. I'm pretty well convinced that the current (dismal) state of tooling for C++ is mostly a result of gcc: a compiler just good enough that for decades nobody worked on anything better (at least in open-source), but sufficiently horrible (especially internally) that it was essentially impossible to use its code base to build any other tools. Clang has helped a lot, and it's put enough pressure on the gcc maintainers that it's gotten a lot better too.
5
@JerryCoffin I agree that Clang has really upped the ante.
@Puppy this certainly isn't helping
@BartekBanachewicz The main main main reason why C++ is the way it is is because separate one-pass compilation, and that's a C holdover they could not have cut.
they would have had to have built something much more like Wide to keep compatibility and dodge the downsides.
@Puppy There is also the fact that early in the design of C++, compilers and resulting programs had to run reasonably well on machines with, say, half a megabyte of RAM and CPUs that ran at 10 MHz or so.
16:13
isn't that basically stating that C++ is doomed to fail?
or, in other words
that it will have to become superseded by something
In the same way that everything else is also doomed to fail, maybe.
Because it's hard to say something like that for something that has been a very popular mainstream language for decades now.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hm, I think that exploring the future of C++ is quite important.
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah, but what puppy said are the flaws that might stop its development and are pretty much unfixable
What dooming characteristic does it have that has been latent for those decades, then?
I am not sure. I was actually asking.
Where is the question mark?
16:16
@BartekBanachewicz It pretty didn't change for 13 years.
And then, it's development got hurried.
it didn't have to.
Now it has to, and the backwards compatibility might impede it to the point where it would be better/cheaper/faster to use something else
If anything, empirical evidence is contrary to your presumption that its development will stop and it will fail after.
I sure hope that my presumptions about the industry aren't completely wrong, because if they are, I don't have a future as a programmer.
Something better/cheaper/faster than C++ at everything C++ can be used for would be more like an accident, not as C++ being doomed to be overtaken by such a mystical beast.
C++23 might well be a pretty nice language, and I sure hope it will be
16:19
hahaha
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well it doesn't have to be one thing, no?
@BartekBanachewicz To an extent, I think it did if it wanted to remain relevant at all. C++ was (and almost certainly still is) losing market share. No, it wasn't to the point that anybody was simply dropping C++ completely, but it was pretty clear that resources dedicated to developing C++ were being constantly trimmed. The only real choices were to change its development, or quite completely.
@BartekBanachewicz So you're not really sure what it will be, but you know C++ is doomed to be toppled by it.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I suspect it.
I've been reading quite a lot about PLs those days
Breaking changes FTW.
16:21
About languages much older than C++ and much younger
and yet, I don't have anything more than a feel that C++ might not be the way
Which says nothing about C++'s future.
@BartekBanachewicz In that case, one of the first things you should have noticed is that it's difficult to predict what languages will succeed in the market place (and what won't).
Lisp is the way.
@PolymorphicPotato sadly c++ is in dire need of breaking changes
Look where that got us.
16:22
@R.MartinhoFernandes Lisp was ahead of its age
@R.MartinhoFernandes Lisp is the future of programming. Always has been and always will be.
5
And apparently it still is.
Dammit, Jerry.
@R.MartinhoFernandes probably.
@Mgetz It'd probably not work out very well for C++, though.
Why probably?
It clear isn't its age.
16:23
ITT Doom and gloom.
Joke aside, its age was the 70s.
@PolymorphicPotato I'm honestly not sure proper unicode support can be retrofitted without breaking changes
People were building Lisp machines back then!
@Mgetz Why not?
Well TBF I don't think that Lisp as it was designed will become successful because of terrible syntax and lack of static typing
I know it can. You just have to deprecate large swaths of the API.
@BartekBanachewicz Then you don't get it.
16:25
@R.MartinhoFernandes because the entire model around string assumes ASCII
Then again, I think that Haskell-like languages are quite a lot like Lisp, while fixing its shortcomings
@R.MartinhoFernandes Are those machines that speak funnily?
All the Lisp evangelists will tell you that its syntax is its greatest feature.
Lisp's syntax is not very interesting.
@R.MartinhoFernandes its syntax is easy to parse for the computer, not for a human
16:25
@Mgetz Er, no, it does not.
You could invent God knows what syntax for various data structure literals.
@BartekBanachewicz That's not what they will tell you about.
@PolymorphicPotato Lisp's lack of syntax is quite interesting though.
In computer programming, homoiconicity (from the Greek words homo meaning the same and icon meaning representation) is a property of some programming languages in which the program structure is similar to its syntax, and therefore the program's internal representation can be inferred by reading the text's layout. If a language is homoiconic, it means that the language text has the same structure as its abstract syntax tree (i.e. the AST and the syntax are isomorphic). This allows all code in the language to be accessed and transformed as data, using the same representation. In a homoiconic language...
@R.MartinhoFernandes really? because locale fails miserably at to_upper because it takes a single char
16:26
The interesting part is that all syntax (apart from comments and perhaps other metadata) is for data structure literals.
@Mgetz That's a completely separate issue
@Mgetz Yes, I know what parts of the API are broken. That doesn't assume ASCII at all, though.
@Mgetz locale is a mess--but that's part of the library, not the core language.
3
Q: Chest muscle and female breast size (Serious , not funny)

Poomrokc The 3yearsDo female chest size have anything to do with muscle? I know many female athlete and their average breast size is much bigger than normal female that does not tend to play sports. Do this have any relation to chest muscle?? If so can you explain how it does. Thanks in advance

dat title
@Mgetz You can just deprecate that and provide a proper function.
Not breaking.
16:27
[[deprecated]] namespace std { }
Everything that was (not quite) working so far will still be (not quite) working.
@R.MartinhoFernandes but can you mandate a character set that everything will compile to?
otherwise the issue is the same
@Mgetz That's not required at all.
@R.MartinhoFernandes hm
@Mgetz No, it is not.
16:28
@Mgetz Not useful.
Though you should mandate that string literals can be mapped to series of Unicode code points if you want your string data type to deal only with Unicode code points.
String literals can already have specific encodings, regardless of what the implementation uses internally. The only thing required (which you can't do much about, and really isn't a big problem) is that the source files be in an encoding the compiler understands.
The runtime representations can all be controlled directly by the programmer.
But with char const[N], you're screwed anyway.
No, you're not vOv
@R.MartinhoFernandes I will sound like puppy now, but... I don't see how it's an important property. Well okay, I see it if you want self-modifying code-specifically, in which case using it as a behavioral DSL might make a lot of sense. I don't think it's a very interesting property in general, though.
And then even as it is right now with locales, it can work just fine without mandating anything because the locales can act as the encoding specifiers.
16:32
Damn you now I've realized that I'm dumber than 5 minutes ago
@BartekBanachewicz I am not saying it is. I'm telling you that that is one of the things that make Lisp special, in particular its syntax. And one of the things the advocates won't shut up about it.
why does learning new things make you dumber :S
that's terrible.
I don't have a particular opinion on homoiconicity. I'm merely aware of it.
Really, the only thing needed to strongly support Unicode in C++ is a library that is aware of it.
16:34
like Ogonek? :P
@BartekBanachewicz Mankind as a whole is learning more, faster, than any one person can keep up with. Therefore, no matter how much we learn or how quickly, we're all becoming dumber (in a relative sense--i.e., the percentage of all knowledge that we posess) all the time, no matter how hard we try to prevent it.
@JerryCoffin that just makes it worse :S
@BartekBanachewicz The obvious answer is specialization: learning more and more about less and less until you know everything about nothing.
@JerryCoffin but I am not sure if I want to know just one infinitely narrow area :S
16:38
@Mgetz FWIW, even right now, you can use to_upper from ctype with char32_t if you want to go around the single-byte issue. The things you cannot really handle at all with this API are things like uppercasing "Straße" and lowercasing "ΌΣΟΣ".
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'd consider that a fairly massive hole. Add in the fact that std::regex does not support unicode categories it's is a shit show
("Straße" uppercases to "STRASSE" and "ΌΣΟΣ" lowercases to "όσος")
@R.MartinhoFernandes Isn't large part of that the fact that "ß" in upper-case doesn't make sense?
@Xarn Uppercase zero doesn't make sense.
"ß" uppercases to "SS".
@Mgetz Yes, it's crap, but it nowhere needs to break anything.
The current APIs are unusable, but you can simply discard them and make useful ones.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Quick research says that it shouldn't in all cases (geographical names) and that it is rather complicated.
16:42
(regex doesn't actually need discarding though: add an extra regex syntax that does things right)
Unicode and letters -- still weird basically. :-D
@Xarn Not sure what you mean.
You mean places like "Essen"? There's no "ß" there.
"SS" always lowercases to "ss".
lowercase(uppercase(x)) is not an identity operation (common misconception) even without the presence of "ß", so there's no problem.
@R.MartinhoFernandes IMO (but I'll openly admit, it's purely an opinion) you're getting things backwards. ASCII/ISO646 have been hugely successful because they present a simple easily understood abstraction of a character set. One with simple rules that are easy to understand and reason about. Unicode/ISO10646 has been unsuccessful for decades because it fails to do so.
@R.MartinhoFernandes so.... boost
@JerryCoffin I fail to see the relevance. I meant "unusable" in context, that being chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/18782508#18782508
16:45
I wonder if I will ever consider myself proficient enough to create a PL
probably not.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Wikipedia says "However, in 2010 the use of the capital sharp s became mandatory in official documentation when writing geographical names in all-caps" with a source, so... dunno. Anyway, gotta run to catch a train, so I'll just bow out of the discussion.
The simple fact is that we've going at things backwards: existing characters are not all such precious snowflakes that we need to model them all correctly. The whole world would be (a lot) better off if we simply discarded "ß" completely (for only one simple example).
@Xarn Place names are always a problem, anyway.
No way around that.
Dec 20 '12 at 9:41, by R. Martinho Fernandes
> So if you have a list of Aachen, Aabenraa, Zürich the correct Danish sort order is Aachen, Zürich, Aabenraa.
@JerryCoffin we've done that quite a bit in the past most notably þ
@Mgetz Tell that to the Icelanders.
16:48
@Mgetz Yes, some has been done. More should be.
@JerryCoffin You know that's not gonna happen.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think it's already happening.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Actually, I think it probably will. It'll just take a lot longer than it should. I certainly don't expect to see it in my lifetime though. The facts are simple: language is really intended for communication. Most of what's difficult in Unicode actively obstructs communication rather than enhancing it. In the long term, such obstructions are self defeating and disappear.
I haven't seen ç since high school.
@StackedCrooked That's not "simply discarding" anything completely.
16:55
Ok then.
@StackedCrooked I've seen Ç a lot in high school, since a friend's last name started with it.
But now I don't see it often either.
Only when I write in French that I don't speak French.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Or simply properly designed to do so.
@R.MartinhoFernandes It doesn't mean it's completely discarded yet, but it does give a decent indication that it's happening.
> Within C++, there is a much smaller and cleaner language struggling to get out
^ I don't really understand what Bjarne means here.
Yes, but there's no conscious decision to simply discard anything.
16:57
@StackedCrooked The ++ part of C++.
@StackedCrooked Wide.
Does he want to create a new language that is a subset of C++?
@Puppy Go for it :)
(And I honestly don't agree with the "world would be (a lot) better" part; it's a really minor problem)
@StackedCrooked lol, Go.
16:58
he means only what's obvious to everyone- that a huge part of C++ that's only really for legacy code and if you went around again with the same intended design principles you'd end up with something vastly superior.
@PolymorphicPotato lolgo sounds like a nice name for a programming language
@StackedCrooked gleogo
@Puppy C#, most likely.
Reinventinng C++ has been done already, several times.
So many times in fact that it deserves anoher 'n' in there
why are you telling me a file is missing while it's not missing, bash
17:01
Probably because you're bad
-bash: cd: ~/dropbox/git/app: No such file or directory
$ cd ~/dropbox/git/app
$
@Jefffrey reminds me of Erlang reporting EISDIR when opening a FIFO.
What's the earlier command
CDing and firing off a background daemon that creates the directory.
Xeo
Xeo
lol
17:04
Also ~ is probably quoted and therefore not expanded
yeah, you are probably right
Blah, I don't know how to write class decorators and I cannot find documentation anywhere.
Is it just a callable that takes a class and returns a class?
$ export APP_PATH='~/dropbox/git/app'
$ alias app_cd='cd $APP_PATH'
$ app_cd
-bash: cd: ~/dropbox/git/app: No such file or directory
Use $HOME
17:06
lemme try
And "" instead of ''.
Also double quotes
yay stringly typed shit
What
@PolymorphicPotato No, ~ is never expanded when quoted
Hence "and"
17:07
@Puppy Nah, it's more like using a variable in the wrong scope.
I read 'try' nvm
I hope cls.__slots__ = () works. :v
~ doesn't exist inside ''. (why that is is an entirely different matter)
But it probably doesn't.
you guys are geniuses
thanks
17:07
@R.MartinhoFernandes No I'm p sure it's still 'stringly typed shit' seeing as Puppy calls p much everything that
@PolymorphicPotato No
Don't use __slots__
hmm
I want to subclass namedtuple without breaking _dict.
What's __slots__?
17:09
Need to set __slots__ for that to work.
is it just me or does the Unreal Tournament OST actually kinda remind you of the Deus Ex music?
@PolymorphicPotato Uh what
@Jefffrey A dumb micro-optimisation
UT OST only reminds me of high school.
If you come to where you need to save memory in an object with __slots__ you're probably in Cython territory
And obtaining the school's admin password.
17:11
It's extremely intrusive and just don't use it
If you think your thing is broken without __slots__ then it's still broken with it, just in a different way
Why would you do this ever
Uh, to add or override methods in a subclass of a namedtuple?
44 secs ago, by Cat Plus Plus
Why would you do this ever
For example to add invariant check to __new__ without breaking the stupid _replace which hardcodes tuple.__new__.
17:13
Just don't use namedtuple at all
Its only purpose is being a drop-in replacement for unwieldy tuples
Why do you all sound like snakes?
What should I do instead?
Just make a normal class and use normal instance attributes
My brain seems to be ultimately fried today.
I could do that.
I do want to write a function in that case, though, with a similar interface to namedtuple.
17:15
Also namedtuple sucks, if you need it then you probably should sacrifice 3 more lines and just make a class
It generates class code as a string and then executes it, it's gross
@Griwes Take some LSD and you'll have a new definition of "fried brain" that almost certainly excludes your current state.
@Puppy The same engine, the same mod tracker it uses.
omg, the new iPhone is going to be--get this--both thinner AND larger
how will I survive without it?!!?
easily.
17:18
Oh, right.
Fuck. I spilled a zillion litres of water.
@sbi I need a spillchucker.
Curious.
@PolymorphicPotato Also you can go with dict that has getattr/setattr, but that's only good if you really need to plug a dict where object attributes are expected, just use dict directly
I'm writing something.
I used something as inexact as "zillions", but still felt the need to mention it was in litres.
17:26
@SamDeHaan By getting a Galaxy Note Edge?
@SamDeHaan Will it be code named after some chocolate bar brand?
@R.MartinhoFernandes "Zillions of molecules" might not sound quite as impressive.
@Xeo "Lieferung voraussichtlich: Montag, 8. September 2014" I still don't have it :<
@JerryCoffin will probably get the new Moto X
@CatPlusPlus something like this does what I actually want: ideone.com/75h3q2
May have some trouble with Pickle, not sure.
17:30
@JerryCoffin When I read my sentence after cleaning up, I thought I might have dropped the litres and not the water, so I was left with gallons. (Surely a scarier circumstance than just spilling some water)
I might be nearing that part of the day when I start making sense.
@PolymorphicPotato Use a dict. Or just a class with no body. Or a class with Traits if you really want predefined fields for whatever reason
The point is immutable public API and replace.
This is overthinking and completely unnecessary
And possible to add to __init__ validation.
def replace(dict_, **kwargs):
    dict_ = copy.copy(dict_)
    dict_.update(**kwargs)
    return dict_
17:32
Can't just add methods to dicts.
Why copy.copy?
To preserve type, more readable that type(dict_)(dict_)
If you're polluting the global namespace with the name copy, might as well just skip the middle man and make it be the nested copy.
If you really care
I almost never from import standard modules
17:41
@R.MartinhoFernandes What's your objections to make the nonius reporter::get*Stream const and public.
Why does Ideone disable assertions. :'(
@R.MartinhoFernandes Perhaps--but you clearly haven't started making sense quite yet! :-)
@CaptainGiraffe You mean the protected ones?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes
Why const? What do you want to do that is const in an output stream?
17:44
They are all gets, the stream is not const
Yes, but they return references.
Oh, wait.
I see.
I can actually return mutable references to them from a const function because they're all held by some kind of mutable reference anyway.
That was my thought. Also I think it not necessary to hug them as protected. For me it was implementing formatting outside of a reporter makes sense to me.
Yeah, I wouldn't oppose that.
Go ahead.
Sorry for the poor sentence =/
I'd like to tie the significant digits in the output to the relative errors. For the csv reporter too, of course.
Why in the CSV too? I think that one should be as raw as possible, because it's meant to be the one that you use for any kind of manual postprocessing.
Unless I'm not understanding.
17:51
Any std::thread experts that know how to reduce the number of heap allocations required by std::async, std::packaged_task, std::future?
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/25750408/reducing-the-number-of-heap-allocations-when-enqueuing-tasks
@gnzlbg Yeah, I saw that, but I think you're out of luck.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Can a thread access anothers' thread stack?
I don't even know if that is possible and how to do it "safely" (it is an unsafe operation)
I don't oppose having the CSV reporter being raw. However an option to produce "tidy" values can easily be implemented.
And might be useful for piping to excel or matlab or your weapon of choice
@CaptainGiraffe Custom reporter options is something I've been thinking about. I just haven't come up with a decent protocol for reporters to announce their options and to take them from the command-line.
17:56
@R.MartinhoFernandes For now I think cfg parsing is enough
Well, consuming them is easy: void configure works.
But I also want to be able to list them in the command-line, so you can know that, say, the HTML reporter can be given a custom title. (Right now I just slapped that on as an extra option)
@gnzlbg use boost::asio
Sry, I have created an enum "precision" and a few other horrific changes to Config.
You are a mainly windows user?
@CaptainGiraffe Don't worry. As long as it's something that can be useful for all reporters, it's ok.
@CaptainGiraffe I am quite familiar with anything but OSX, and I use both Windows and Linux daily.

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