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15:08
Am I the only one who finds this disturbing?
yes you are alone in this universe
Ell
Ell
@BenjaminGruenbaum Just stupid really
@AlexM. I like the occasional macdo.
i've just broken my django setup
Djang, that sucks.
15:21
@Jefffrey are you using virtualenv?
yeah
Ell
Ell
There, there, djedefre
create a new one and delete the one that is broken
but I think the problem is with the database
you're using what?
15:22
postgresql
but you're using sqlalchemy or the thing that come with django?
a weird error come up, I followed some instructions on the internet about removing a file in the /tmp folder. It worked again, but from then on django is no longer able to create tables. And it doesn't even print any error.
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix the thing
good luck... btw why do you use django?
what do you mean?
Ell
Ell
@Jefffrey Why did you choose django over other stuff?
15:25
^ that
it was recommended here
it didn't even make any difference to me
Ell
Ell
I started with django
But I didn't like it really
nah, django is fine
You could check out pyramid, it's more of a barebone framework. It doesn't have anything shiny but it's powerful
Ell
Ell
I'm using flask at the minute
15:26
yeah flask too
i tried flask, sinatra and pyramid and, even though they are more flexible and doesn't get on your way, they make me much less productive
also i had some really bad experiences with sqlalchemy, probably due to my incompetence, and i can't use that library without puking
that's possible if you don't know how they work.. for example pyramid traversal thing is hard to understand for newbs
also i know orms are all that's wrong with the world and the ukraine stuff that is going on now, but they are pretty sexy and easy to use
so i prefer orms
Ell
Ell
@Jefffrey I think they are for different purposes
@Jefffrey I use couchdb... no orm... only http queries!
15:29
is it some kind of a REST thing?
eew web programming
yup. but it's hard to explain... I guess many people think it suck because you can't query a couchdb server exactly
@FredOverflow :( that's my main problem... I'm writing html5 app and telling myself that it's not webprogramming
yeah, my whole postgres installation is borked
The best part of web application development is the part that doesn't do anything with the web.
15:36
can't even uninstall without incurring in errors
Flask is suck.
@Jefffrey Fowler has a piece on ORMs
Where he goes "Well, they solve a really hard problem, so you don't like them? Meh"
Found it, good read
They solve a really not-at-all-hard problem and introduce very hard problems.
@PolymorphicPotato what ORMs have you worked with?
> Their complexity implies a grueling learning curve
wat
orm are complex?
django migrations are complex, not the orm
15:41
@BenjaminGruenbaum Django's shit, ActiveRecord, Entity Framework, Magento's and DataMapper.
@PolymorphicPotato Let's take EF for example, please explain to me why it's worse than the alternative of writing SQL for the general use case?
What 'hard problems' it introduces etc.
he is in that phase
@Jefffrey I got N+1 problems but ORMs ain't one.
you know, the one in which you develop some principles about programming
Setters and virtual properties.
15:42
@Jefffrey that was a pun, on the select n+1, meh nvm.
Even though without EF I wouldn't need either of those.
the next phase is usually the "fuck principles, i just want to get this thing done" phase
@PolymorphicPotato why do they bother you?
then i guess there's the "fuck programming" phase
The ORM makes me change my entities, whereas it should really be an implementation detail somewhere outside of the main part of the application.
15:43
good luck designing something like that
lemme know if you succeed
while maintaining convenience of course
Finally there is the "I don't give a fuck" phase
Storage implementation should have no impact at all on the application's design.
@PolymorphicPotato You don't have to change your entities, you can use your entities as DTOs and put your domain logic somewhere else. Then you'd still win having easier queries you can easily debug against object, strong typing, easier testing etc without having to use EF POCO objects as domain objects.
@PolymorphicPotato yes, we all studied that
Just because you have an ORM doesn't mean it should dictate all your application logic... that's just silly.
15:45
give an valid alternative or gtfo
@BenjaminGruenbaum it will dictate some part of your application
that's the whole point of orms
All it abstracts is writing SQL queries with that methodology, you don't have to use the DB or IQueryables directly anywhere.
Write functions record_to_<whatever entity I have> and use those in the implementation of your storage mechanism.
Abstracting SQL queries is not specific to ORMs.
@Jefffrey yes, but that part can be as isolated as it is without the ORM
Unless you consider record-to-tuple "ORM"
@PolymorphicPotato yes, I'm well aware of ORMs, data mappers and all that. I did not claim abstracting SQL queries is specific to ORM.
Writing a gagillion record_to_<whatever entity> is boring, slow and pretty retarded - but if you want to do that for whatever reason you still can do that with an ORM and still win at stronger static typing, testability, and an easier to work with interface.
15:47
I don't know what programs you're working on.
In C# or in general?
I never had a gagillion entities, but maybe I work on smaller projects than you do.
Maybe, we easily have over 100K LoC in our C# code base (probably over 1M). It's actively worked on by several people for 2 years.
If we had a small code base - we could have gotten just fine using EF directly without a DAL in the interim.
Also, you contradicted yourself but meh.
There are a lot of arguments against ORMs but you're yet to raise one of those :P
@BenjaminGruenbaum Why?
@PolymorphicPotato well, the part where you started talking about stuff like separating storage from other logic completely which is important for large applications and then the alternative you suggested (hand rolling store/load functions for every repository you have, let's ignore the error proneness of that for a big) required writing a ton of boilerplate to which you replied "I don't have that many entitites"
15:52
I never said it was important for only large applications.
So you'd write a whole DAL for a 100 LoC application?
I can't begin to emphasize how retarded that is.
Honestly if I have a 100 LoC app I'd just query the DB directly.
Unless it's use-only throwaway stuff where I never give a single shit about design.
Once I need a stronger abstraction I'd refactor.
If It's a 100 LoC app why would you give a shit about design?
Just code it and get it over with, most small apps have trivial data access anyway.
Most small DB touching apps are just web projects or apps who act as DB skins anyway. The DB logic is trivial and abstraction is just more time coding.
If it doesn't save me time at the end game - coding it is a poor choice from a business perspective.
15:55
@BenjaminGruenbaum If it is used in production it will probably grow sooner or later.
@PolymorphicPotato at which point you'd refactor it.
Ell
Ell
@BenjaminGruenbaum Because it's easier to reason about?
I've written 100 LoC things which still benefited a lot from clean code
because they are easier to understand and easier to reason about in your head
@Ell You don't really need to reason about it. You can just throw it away and start from scratch if you need to change it.
Ell
Ell
Or you could write it properly first time?
that does not prevent you from needing to change it in the future.
16:02
@Ell If we both are given a task that takes 100 LoC and it's simple enough, if I deliver faster and provide more business value by not spending an hour thinking about design - you've just wasted an hour.
the entire purpose behind good design is to make it easier to expand or adapt programs.
that purpose simply doesn't apply to 100loc programs where any significant adaptation or expansion effectively constitutes developing a new program from scratch.
No Puppy No! That requires thinking about why we do things!
We are Java, we must singleton or our code isn't good design like uncle Bob tells us.
Please Uncle Bob - turn all my referentially transparent code into a mess of globals, please oh please! Extract fields out of function state and share it within functions! Do it with IntelliJ so you look smart and make swoosh sounds!
I'll buy your book and tell you how smart you are.
Please more globals! Be dramatic! Put all the boolean flags in global state! More classes! More Design!
@BenjaminGruenbaum What is the Helix Nebula doing here ?
Ruining code, as usual.
Ell
Ell
@Puppy What? Why would you have to start it again?
like you said if it's written well it can be easily changed
16:12
@Ell Because for any substantial program, 100loc is nothing as a starting point.
You don't have to write it again, just write a few unit tests for it and refactor it.
Ell
Ell
@Puppy Just add more lines :P You don't have to lose all of your progress
just continue
you say "all of your progress" as if you actually have progress.
when actually the amount of progress you have is quite reasonably approximated as zero.
there's no active reason to throw it away but nor is there any need to keep it.
and since you don't need to keep it there's no need to make it pleasant to keep.
Ell
Ell
Would you rather start from 0 or just above 0? :P
Every little helps
16:17
both positions are effectively 0.
Ell
Ell
@Puppy which one would you rather?
and you pay a price for designing a meaninglessly small section of program.
You can reuse the code, but you should just iterate and refactor if you need your old code.
@Ell Choosing one implies that you're making a choice; I see no choice between 0 and 0.
You don't know the architectural constraints you'll have when it grows anyway.
Ell
Ell
16:17
@Puppy It's 0 and just above 0
@Ell They're both 0.
If you have X time and to waste - spend it on tests and not on architecture.
Ell
Ell
@Puppy If they are both 0, why did you even write those 100 LoC in the first place?
Writing code well is fun.
Fun is to me the most important thing in life.
@Ell Certainly not to save a meaningless fraction on a future project I couldn't possibly imagine.
16:18
@PolymorphicPotato fun doesn't make you a good programmer, delivering business value fast makes you a good programmer.
Ell
Ell
Idk why you'd rather start with 0 LoC than 100... it doesn't make sense to me
user924016
hehe.. I had some coffe and a smoke now... =]
If it's between someone who writes a horrible jQuery mess and makes the thing work in 30 minutes or you taking 10 hours to write a mini framework for the thing - I'd take the one that bills me for 30 hours and I'm done in under an hour.
Ell
Ell
@BenjaminGruenbaum How about the one who uses jQuery sensibly? :P
(ie, the good one. Those two above are both bad)
I'm not sure I can agree completely with that. If you build code for the future, you can make libraries that don't have to be written again and you will save much more time using that instead of writing code from scratch everytime
16:20
You cannot use jQuery sensibly.
@Ell easily, jQuery is a pretty solid DOM manipulation library.
@PolymorphicPotato jQuery is a pretty reasonable library given the problem it solves.
Ell
Ell
@BenjaminGruenbaum Right. I mean, the programmers you both listed are bad
a good programmer would write nice jQuery non-mess
How long would it take them?
Ell
Ell
45 minutes maybe? :P
If the good programmer is afraid to get dirty and use a plugin, and thus delivers in 10 hours and not 30, they're not a good programmer IMO.
16:21
jquery plugin mashing isn't what I call a good programmer
Ell
Ell
@BenjaminGruenbaum exactly, that's what I was saying above :)
plugins often might do more than required and slow down the experience of the webapp
Ell
Ell
But they shouldn't write a mess
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix of course I'm exaggerating here. Mashing stuff together isn't the answer most of the time.
@BenjaminGruenbaum my experience is that you have several stages of web developer... those that don't know jQuery, those that over use jQuery, and those that have found angular
3
16:22
jQuery plugins are not namespaced and therefore horrible.
angular or knockout
@Mgetz I put "Those who have found angular" just under "Those who have found X" for most X and then "Those who realized there are no silver bullets in life".
@PolymorphicPotato Haskell isn't namespaced :D
@BenjaminGruenbaum yep
Angular fails at oh so many things, if I want you to add some functionality to my static website and you use Angular, well....
@BenjaminGruenbaum use knockout :)
16:24
@BenjaminGruenbaum as you said... no silver bullets, angular is very specialized. What it does well it does very well. What it doesn't... is a royal pain in the arse.
that's true... yet there are some problems with angular yet it's pretty awesome
@Mgetz what it does it does very well until you reach that point where it isn't that great anymore. Suddenly having a huge digest cycle is a pain, and everything running through $rootScope on every evalAsync sucks, and having a global injector is annoying, and library implementations like $q are slow and unswappable.
@BenjaminGruenbaum said like a google employee
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I have production code written in Knockout and deployed for a while now, 3.0 really fixes some of the pain spots but it's still very annoying - a good tool but not a silver bullet.
@Mgetz I don't work for Google thank god :D
@BenjaminGruenbaum I had thought you did for some reason, seems I was mis-informed
16:27
@BenjaminGruenbaum it does great what it is designed to. Observable object and update the dom. if you need anything else. You need some specialized libraries that will work
@Mgetz I have PRs merged in Angular and I talked to the core team quite a bit about stuff I liked and didn't in Angular, but I wouldn't go work for a company like Google
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix 2 way data binding is fun but it also breaks at times, Knockout sucks at different points from Angular and it's getting better but it still has a way to go - and how it works internally is absolutely horrible.
@BenjaminGruenbaum ah, my two cents is that web development in general is a mess it needs a LOT of basic api work before it will be really nice
Angular's parser is a smart HTML parser that walks the DOM and creates bindings and parses everything and validates etc. Knockout is a nested chain of with and Function constructors (doing eval and with everywhere effectively)
btw anyone heard any news about the malaysian flight that got shut down?
@Mgetz it's still probably better than any other form of UI development I worked with, but I think HTML CSS and JS are all fundamentally broken and need to be replaced eventually.
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix ?
16:31
@BenjaminGruenbaum that's right, the 2 way binding is cool. but the way knockout works seems like a big hack
@BenjaminGruenbaum mh17
I meant: what news?
I don't know... I didn't heard any news about it for a while. Just interested what people might say about it around the world
@BenjaminGruenbaum replaced I don't know, Microsoft tried that and failed miserably. I suspect like anything the core libraries we like the most will find their way into the spec
@Mgetz well, ES6 is a better JavaScript with modules ETC but it's still messed up in many ways. ES7 sounds a lot more reasonable, I just can't stand not having stuff like value types, decimals etc.
value types, decimals?
16:35
Decimals are nice.
@BenjaminGruenbaum on one hand we need a language that takes almost no time to parse and begin execution. On the other hand we need performance.
You don't have integers in JavaScript.
That's super lame.
No real sets, or maps, or tuples or data structures really.
As far as I know, Sets and real HashTable are coming
Nope, they're broken, soz.
Sets are nice.
16:37
I just ordered a geforce 5500 :D
@PolymorphicPotato sure they are, they're super useful too, just not in JS
lol, mutable maps
Ell
Ell
16:39
I still think a standard bytecode would be better
or IL or whatever
When you ask the language internals group "I'm trying to work with ES6 Map objects and I ran into an interesting problem." and their response is "Yes! Well done!" your first thought it "well... I'm screwed"
It really doesn't matter whether you have JavaScript code or bytecode.
The only thing that would have to change is the backend of your compiler.
user784668
Where's Bartek?
user784668
@melak47 What for?
Wuuh saves bytes wuuh.
16:43
Well I'm surprised js doesn't include a hashing function to be used to compare objects and fallback to references if the hashable function doesn't exist or something like that
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix they have a solution (value objects) but it's ES7 :D
@Fanael repairing a ~10 year old box someone doesn't want to throw away
user784668
@melak47 How much did you pay for it? €5?
I know I know, I could probably get another 10 year old box for the same price :p
user784668
@melak47 That's right.
user784668
16:49
But seriously, how much?
10€ including shipping
user784668
€1 for the GPU and €9 for shipping?
I figure it's easier to try and fix this old thing by replacing the broken part than migrating the winxp install to new hardware...
user784668
Yes.
user784668
Migrating Windows installs is always a PITA.
16:52
seems to work well enough with win7
but I've only tried it with reasonably similar hardware so...
You need to preinstall the new core drivers
Ell
Ell
ughhhh
cut myself shaving
17:08
@Ell That happens to me all the time. Sometimes I look as if I tried to peel all of my skin from my neck. :)
Ell
Ell
@VáclavZeman first time it's happened since the first time I shaved :P
@Ell Your skin is superior to mine. :)
Fuck shaving
Ell
Ell
I wouldn't shave if I could grow a beard
but my facial hair grows too slow
This week was terrible
Hell of a downtime, haven't accomplished anything
17:21
Facial hair is horrible.
Too masculine.
> Hey Jesus, thank you for your pain.
dat lyrics
user784668
Hair is horrible.
Nooo.
Eyelashes, eyebrows and head hair are good.
All other hair is indeed terrible.
user784668
Catfish have no hair, therefore hair is horrible. q.e.d.
17:48
0
Q: How to create an overarching if statement? As in, "if this happens at any point in the program..."

Sammy assignment is to create an algorithm for the karel robot to use to exit a maze and stop once it reaches a beeper. I have successfully created this algorithm except for getting karel to stop when it reaches the beeper. This is only a portion of my code, but you'll see that I'm basically inserti...

Yay, I answered one of the few questions about Karel on SO. And it's only 1 year old!
-2
Q: What are the Theories behind Karel the Robot

user3276091My thesis project is slightly like karel the robot and i stock when it comes in theoretical framework. I appologize because I know this is not related to any programming. But i want to know what are the theories behind karel the robot?

weird question
Dalai Lama criticizes Putin. That seems kinda unusual.
why so?
I don't think he did this before.
Xeo
Xeo
man, having a proper kitchen is nice
user3010322
@Xeo Kitchen best room.
Xeo
Xeo
17:57
nah, bedroom best room
bad room best room (applies to people who only have 1 room)
user784668
lol fail
The set of all best rooms is the same set as the one of all worst rooms!
How big is the best room if there are no rooms?

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