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2:00 PM
Oh sorry, reading for the purposes of outputting? I was thinking of the UB that my compiler exhibits.
 
I'm selling traders the silk I stole from them yesterday <3
I'm so evil
 
@AlexM. I'm going to create an oldschool mmorpg one day
 
Xeo
Playable on smartwatches?
 
Runescape at its time was really nice, but I couldn't understand it then
@Xeo sure. Mobile gaming or bust.
reminds me I have to create a ticket for a mobile version of Potato
 
there is a WoW-like mmo on mobiles atm
 
2:02 PM
OR I COULD IF WE HAD FUCKING ISSUE TRACKER THANKS @dolan
 
Ell
runescape was only good because of leveling
 
and quests
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz what are you working on?
@AlexM. Quests suck :P
 
@Ell Potato Empires
 
@Ell nah the puzzles are quite clever
 
Ell
2:03 PM
Sounds like a clicking game
 
@Ell it's a turn-based-full-vision strategy
 
a guy gave me 49 herbs that I don't really need
this after I gave people food that I didn't need
 
zch
What is "full-vision?
 
karma
 
guys, I'm implementing a C++11 <random> compatible RNG class, and I'm stuck on what behaviour I should implement for the default constructor
 
2:04 PM
@zch sometimes called full information. Basically when the opponents are moving, you see everything; like in Chess.
 
Xeo
@LucDanton Actually, I don't think that's recursion at all
 
@Xeo Dunno, it's static, so maybe the rules about "zero-initialization happening before any other initialization" should apply, but I'm not a language lawyer.
 
the standard only states the default constructor is Class(result_type seed = default_seed)
 
Xeo
@milleniumbug Oh, good point
 
I could do some constant default seed, which will always give the same result, or I could do a nondeterministic seed, which should I do?
 
2:05 PM
@Xeo Hey, don’t say that to me. I didn’t bring up the R-word.
 
@AlexM. there was one time at WoW when we earned 1.5k with a friend for fast guessing of song titles basing on lyrics :D
 
Ell
@nightcracker seed it I guess
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's usually (at least in English) referred to as "perfect information". In this case, you really want to use the accepted terminology, because there is also (for only one example) "Complete information", which sounds similar, but actually means something quite different.
 
> This means that, as so few people use Boo, and the resources required to support it in the docs are not negligible, we’ve decided to drop support for Boo documentation for the Unity 5.0 release and use our resources in a more constructive way.
oh.
that's sad.
@JerryCoffin oh okay I didn't actually know the term, thanks.
@JerryCoffin complete information would mean you can infer everything, but it's not shown directly?
hmm
> knowledge about other market participants or players is available to all participants.
 
@nightcracker I think that's an implementation specific detail, e.g. each standard library will have it's own default seed
 
2:11 PM
oh there it is
 
@Mgetz yes, but there is a difference between "a default seed" and a "nondeterministic default seed", since it's always different
 
@BartekBanachewicz At least if memory serves (it's been a while since I read about game theory) it means you know the basic rules that apply to everybody, but don't necessarily see all their moves. IIRC, it's typically used to model things like stock markets, where you kind of classify people into groups, and postulate a set of rules that will be followed by each group--but you only see "moves" (buys or sells in the market) as an aggregate, so you can only infer which group did a particular buy or sell.
 
but I guess making the default seed non-deterministic is the most sane behaviour, since if you really care about a particular seed to reproduce results you wouldn't be using the default seed
or rather, SHOULDN'T be using the default seed
 
@JerryCoffin aha. Thanks again, I'll stick to using proper terms from now on.
 
@nightcracker Pick 42 as the default seed. (Non-jokey: I would go with the former.)
 
2:18 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Well, you might for this particular term anyway. But of course there will always be a time you talk/think about a subject in which you don't know the accepted terms--or I certainly hope you do anyway. Any time you deal with something new (to you), there's a pretty good chance you'll use the "wrong" terminology. The only alternative to that (that I see) is to looking at or thinking about new things, which sounds incredibly boring.
 
@LucDanton why a static seed?
 
hmm
what do you guys think of exported functions having a different ABI (and therefore different function types) to internal ones?
 
@sehe the article mentions that "the languages that already heavily optimize will find new life". I personally think that, for example, C's features for single-core optimizations are vastly inferior to other languages builtin concurrency primitives (especially with pure FP), so it wouldn't necessarily be the case. What's your view on that?
 
@nightcracker It’s deterministic.
 
sbi
Can we please downvote this nonsense to the point where we can just delete it? (See my comment for a justification.)
 
2:21 PM
@Puppy I'm not opposed... but that sounds a lot like extern "C"
 
extern "C" is a bit more intrusive.
 
@LucDanton and is a deterministically-seeded RANDOM number generator really the default behaviour you want? IMO the default behaviour really should be random, and if you care about reproducable results you should manually seed with a deterministic seed
 
@Puppy so expand on what you're intending and what the effects of that on linking are
 
@sbi no
 
Ell
@Puppy why would you want that?
 
2:22 PM
@sbi what ever may be , It was very useful some one have to know (seeing about it first time ) .. and if he finds quickly means thats good
 
@Ell Because the ABI requirements are different.
for exported functions, you want to pass certain argument types indirectly when normally they're passed directly.
 
Ell
When you say exported
 
@JerryCoffin Well in this case, as you said, the difference is pretty substantial. Had I used "complete", it might have misguided people. Incidentally that's why I think it's better to use broader, more colloquial terms if you don't know the proper terminology.
 
not C++ or C functions.
 
@sbi lol, ofcourse downvoted
 
2:23 PM
I already employ separate ABIs for them.
I mean, functions you make available for other Wide modules to use.
 
Ell
oh okay
and didn't you want to be able to let the user decide on the abi?
 
sbi
> Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
 
right, but not all parts of that are user-choosable.
 
@nightcracker To conform with the requirements, every default-constructed generator must have the same initial state. Table See table 117: "E() Creates an engine with the same initial state as all other default-constructed engines of type E."
 
at least, not as long as I'm implemented on top of LLVM.
 
2:25 PM
@sbi the iterator comment under the 2nd answer makes a valid point
 
also, not sure what you meant by "user", it would be "compiler vendor".
 
@JerryCoffin oh thanks, didn't see that, that solves the issue then I guess
seems rather silly behaviour though
 
@nightcracker You seem set. Pick that then.
 
@LucDanton nah, jerry corrected me and sait the standard mandates deterministic behaviour
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz An Iterator is just an abstract pointer, really. (Also, this has nothing to do with the nonsene answer I linked to.)
 
2:26 PM
so the real issue is that if you always pass directly, then they can't be exported without preventing some of the binary abstractions I wanted to implement, if you always pass indirectly then you pay a performance price even on internal functions for exporting them (unless you inline or something), and if you do each when appropriate then the function types aren't compatible anymore.
 
Ell
@Puppy I'd prefer that all functions had the same abi whether exported or not
 
sbi
OK, thanks. Now we can vote to delete it.
 
Ell
Or maybe I just wouldn't care as long as it was all transparent
 
sbi
> Vote to delete this post? (30 votes remaining)
Ugh.
 
@sbi I know, I just felt like it could be added to your answer.
> We desperately need a higher-level programming model for concurrency than languages offer today;
We do have one Herb :S
 
2:27 PM
html to the rescue
 
it's called pure FP
 
multithreaded html
 
I totally disagree.
 
sbi
> a->b is, originally, a shorthand notation for (*a).b. However, -> is the only of the member access operators that can be overloaded, so if a is an object of a class that overloads operator-> (such types are usually called smart pointers), then the meaning is whatever the class designer implemented.
 
the space for library-based improvements to existing imperative/OO languages has hardly been explored conclusively yet.
 
sbi
2:28 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Should I list iterators beside smart pointers?
 
the C++ Standard's concurrency library facilities are a pathetic joke.
@sbi No, just remove it. There are many use cases for overloading -> that aren't smart pointers or iterators.
 
@sbi I'd write it as (such types are usually smart pointers or iterators)
 
@Puppy true, but some of the upcoming TRs look pretty nice, microsoft is pretty much giving away the PPL
 
sbi
@Puppy Ok, now you got me curious. Can you list, say, a mere half a dozen of those many?
 
@Puppy well you have every right to think so. I think that pure FP is a really, really nice solution though.
 
2:30 PM
@sbi I think I'd remove the parenthetical, and add a separate sentence, something to the effect that: "Two common examples of such classes are iterators and smart pointers."
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz OK, that sounds reasonable. Thanks, I'll do that.
@JerryCoffin Yeah, but 1) I am German and love long sentences and 2) I am who I am and love parentheticals and the like. :)
 
@sbi (and the like)
:)
 
sbi
Thanks, @Puppy and @Jerry for adding your delete votes!
 
you need 15k for delvotes right?
 
@sbi You can leave it as a parenthetical if you prefer, but should make it clear that you're giving a couple of the most common examples, not an exhaustive list.
 
2:32 PM
oh no it's 10k, 15k is for protection
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, there's things which serve the same purpose – such as these, which I don't know a name for – that I love to use, too.
 
italics?
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin Ah, OK. Yes, I agree I could emphasize this more.
 
@sbi I raise you my Eisenbahnknotenpunkthinundherschieber!
 
sbi
@nightcracker Long words are for German dummies. Bandwurmsätze, OTOH, are for the bright ones. :)
 
2:34 PM
@sbi I've seen in Clang that their type system is implemented by a small QualType struct, that holds local qualifiers like const/volatile, and operator-> is overloaded to provide access to the underlying type, e.g. int/whatever.
so you could simply say "Every use case where you want to wrap any kind of alias at all, ever, for any reason".
@Mgetz Yes, that's a very nice library. I think that I would want to decide that it's been fully explored before deciding that it's insufficient.
 
sbi
@Puppy So this is one example. Look at the claws of your left paw, puppy. So many are still missing for me to take your claim serious that there are "many use cases for overloading -> that aren't smart pointers or iterators".
 
@BartekBanachewicz Purity is just a tool, nothing more, and you don't need a pure-gasm language to use it.
 
@Puppy I think they are targeting very close to c++17 for that TR, so it's nothing near term anyway.
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin It now says "(common such types are smart pointers or iterators)". Is that better? /cc @Bartek
 
2:38 PM
@sbi Better, though I find "common such types" fairly clumsy. I'd probably use the (admittedly verbose): "two common examples of such types are..." Oh, and in this case it should really be "and", not "or".
 
@BartekBanachewicz I know what you mean. I feel it's largely the same deal though. The same vectorization options are available after transforming to IR or assembly code. It's just a lot harder on the compiler to distill the opportunities. I agree that purer languages afford this much more reliably. But: "There Is No Silver Bullet"
 
@Puppy You don't? I'd say that... uh, actually look above
@sehe lemme read that now.
oi what the it's from '86
 
@sbi For what it's worth, that would be a "subordinate clause".
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin Employing a language that prompts us to write statements like *itl++ == *itr++ I am not keen to write verbosely. :)
@JerryCoffin Ah, thanks!
 
@sehe Oh shit - what am I to do with the werewolves now?
 
2:42 PM
@sbi OK, well, let me spell it out for you a little more clearly. "It wraps a pointer, but it also manages lifetime.". "It wraps a pointer, but it also allows iteration". "It wraps a pointer, but it also adds a couple local data members". The "but it also" part really isn't important. You can invent whatever you want for it to also do. Do you want to count every difference instance of "also" as a separate use case? They're all the same use case. "It's a pointer but also something else".
the "something else" part is irrelevant.
 
@MartinJames just eat them
 
@sbi I should probably add: I don't know of a term specific to a subordinate clause separated by dashes.
 
Xeo
@sbi optional
 
When the contrapositive of a self referencing sentence like this one does NOT contain a negative it can be simplified to a non-paradoxical truth value.
3
 
Xeo
@nightcracker Oh shi, let's just hope @R.MartinhoFernandes doesn't see that
2
 
sbi
2:44 PM
@Xeo That now makes as many examples as I had, which is the amount the puppy dismissed as "just a few among the many others". May I quote Joschka Fischer? "I am not convinced."
 
Xeo
@sbi Oh, I was just adding to the pool, and optional is a rather well-known one
 
@nightcracker ...and even if it does contain a negative, it can sometimes be so simplified: "When the contrapositive of a self referencing sentence like this one contains only positives, it can be simplified to a non-paradoxical truth value" (though I suppose some might consider "only" a negative).
 
sbi
@Puppy See, now you have gone and generalized what classes do which overload operator->. Of course, there is other uses than pointers and iterators, I never denied this. But I still maintain that the most common types used by programmers which have to look at the answer will be smart pointers and iterators, and that your claim ("they are just a few, there's many others") is just hot air. That you were only able to come up with one example, and that not even from the std lib, supports this.
 
I have just realized
Haskell is older than me.
It was created before my birth so I could use it during my lifetime.
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz Even C is younger than me. :(
 
2:49 PM
@sbi Dirt is younger than you, you old fart of an Ape! :-)
 
@sbi see you're the responsible generation! :D
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin What language designer calls their language "Dirt"?
 
@sbi None, TTBOMK. "Older than dirt" is a pretty common expression in English though.
 
dunno about that, but I'll call my language Triton
if I ever create a language, that is.
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz Nope, no responsibility here. I only heard about C for the first time in the 80s. IO had nothing to do with its creation.
 
2:51 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Please don't.
 
@Jefffrey Long way before that (like Turnip)
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin Ah, I didn't know that! Well, as they say, a joke explained is a joke wasted.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yo momma used to be a tri-ton, but now she's a quad-ton.
 
alias literate="awk '/^> .*$/ { print substr(\$0, 3) }'"
 
sbi
Anyway, I'm outta here, I have an appointment. See you!
 
2:52 PM
:D
 
@sbi Later.
 
An ape-pointment.
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin Yes, the appointment is later. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to make it, of course!
 
Xeo
Well great. Our admin tool doesn't escape the data it writes into the SQL table, so I can't use ; as a seperator.
 
sbi
@PolymorphicPotato Why young man, I don't see no reason for grinning when I say goodbye. You ought to be politely greeting then. Shakes head. Youth today...
 
Ell
2:53 PM
@sbi Bye now :)
 
Xeo
@Jefffrey Ape-ointment, rather.
 
Ell
@Xeo you could escape manually?
 
A disa-pointment.
I can stop now.
 
AWK is such a great tool.
Speaking of AWK, I like Useless Use of cat.
Having a pipeline that reads from left to right except for the initial input is just weird.
 
@PolymorphicPotato You mean like cat a | x instead of x < a?
 
2:56 PM
Well more like cat f | grep p | c | d instead of grep p f | c | d.
Especially when p is rather long.
 
I find it pretty amusing that composition of pipe operations was born in minds of those C-lovers
well, practical use of it.
 
Of course I have syntax highlighting in my interactive shell but still.
 
ew unsafePerformIO
 
safePerformNonIO = extract
 

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