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Ell
12:04 AM
Me too
Why are c++ stdlib stuff mostly not separated by function into namespace?
Like chrono is
Why don't we have io, types, error, etc.
 
too verbose, I guess
the standard library is/was small enough to be in a single namespace
 
@Ell Most of it predates namespaces. In the mid-1990's, the idea of just moving things into namespace std was sufficiently novel to raise all sorts of ruckus. I doubt using lots more namespaces would have been approved at all.
 
@Ell Namespaces weren't supported back then. If you saw the SGI STL you'd see a lot of workarounds for compilers that don't support namespaces.
Probably due to ADL.
 
hey scotty
 
hello
hot
in the temperature kind of way
 
12:16 AM
I'm happy.
 
not for long
 
550MB pdf thats a first
 
user3010322
@Borgleader I've had 3 GB PDFs and crap like that. (Programming books all as pictures).
 
user3010322
OCRing them reduced the size by a lot.
 
its 1404 pages, it probably contains pictures but it isnt all pictures
 
12:31 AM
it is probably all pictures
that's the only way a PDF gets that large
 
it isnt but it has a lot of them
 
user3010322
@Borgleader That's a lot of papers.
 
Ell
Ahh okay that makes sense
 
user3010322
@Borgleader They've got a whole section in raytracing too. :D
 
# Protect for possible race condition, those bastard with FTL
# clicking capabilities
 
12:49 AM
@ThePhD Yeah i saw
 
Ell
Curry three nights in a row can't be good for my bowels
 
@ThePhD Do you like Tony's pun on the starboard?
DO YOU?
 
user3010322
@Borgleader I don't even see it. o_o
 
6 hours ago, by Tony The Lion
> What's the difference between a circus and a strip club? The circus is filled with cunning stunts...
 
user3010322
1:04 AM
I don't see the pun in that.
 
If the circus is filled with cunning stunts, whats in the strip club?
 
user3010322
Uh.
 
user3010322
Cunting stuns?
 
user3010322
I don't know.
 
hint: stunning
 
user3010322
1:06 AM
Still not quite sure where the pun is...
 
stunning cunts?
 
isnt that a pun? (and yes thats what i was referring to)
im pretty sure thats what the joke implies
 
1:52 AM
wtf this place is dead
D:
 
rapptz-so-pro
 
I forgot I even had this repo
 
user3010322
2:17 AM
@Rapptz :3c
 
user3010322
@Borgleader Everybody loves operator[]
 
user3010322
It's basically the greatest thing since sliced bread.
 
3:28 AM
I've never used JSON. From reading json.org it looks like it's used for transferring data between programs written in different languages. Is that basically the idea?
 
Essentially JSON is a way of taking a javascript object and serializing it.
If your data can be represented easily in javascript types, then chances are you can use JSON to pass data back and forth
 
json is very popular
 
You can kinda think of it as sort of a lightweight, easier to parse, less featureful version of XML. Kinda sorta.
I guess my only real beef with JSON is why the hell aren't trailing commas allowed?
Ah, ok that explains that: stackoverflow.com/a/18802246/483486
 
3:47 AM
@OmnipotentEntity ...or you can think of it as a focused attempt at solving a problem, rather than trying to be all things to all people (and in the processing, becoming nearly nothing to anybody).
 
@JerryCoffin, I never made a claim that JSON was inferior or superior to XML. I simply was using XML as a point of reference because more people have heard of it. I prefer JSON myself.
 
user3010322
4:36 AM
Robot had an answer about Hexes and Catan...
 
6:16 AM
@OmnipotentEntity Yeah same here.
XML is a mess. I don't really know why people like it...
 
6:46 AM
@Rapptz What is messy about XML? From what I've seen it has fairly simple syntax, I don't get why people are always talking about how hard it is to parse.
 
have you tried parsing it?
 
Granted, I've never actually tried to do it myself.
 
maybe if you try then you'd understand :v
 
user3010322
XML is simple when you parse it as a stupid bunch of <>
 
user3010322
But XML has so much more that most people don't even remotely consider.
 
6:47 AM
yeah that
 
user3010322
Namespacing, DTDs, backreferencing, CDATA...
 
@ThePhD Why don't we have a language that doesn't have all that extra?
 
user3010322
I've never seen "SimpleXML"
 
it's called JSON
 
user3010322
Besides, what's the point of subsetting XML?
 
6:48 AM
:p
 
user3010322
If you just write dumb XML, a regular XML parser will handle it just fine.
 
Is it so complicated that there are no truly conforming implementations (like the C and C++ world)?
 
no
there are a lot
but they aren't very common
and I guess a lot cut out some things too
 
user3010322
A bunch of XML parsers are not strictly conformant.
 
user3010322
But, even if not strictly conformant, many do pass the Official XML Tests â„¢
 
user3010322
6:52 AM
So for all intents and purposes you'd never fully know, until you ran into that one edge case.
 
user3010322
(I wonder if that means the XML Test bed is insufficient?)
 
user3010322
Either way, most nobody ever needs all of XML so using something simpler and easier to wrangle is probably always a better choice (JSON).
 
user3010322
Even .ini is good enough for most configs.
 
Sublime Text uses JSON for config
works pretty well I guess
I feel like I'm missing something major in this signal/slot thing.
 
user3010322
Signal/slots ?
 
user3010322
7:05 AM
Like.... Event<int, int> kinda thing?
 
sure
 
user3010322
What does sure mean?! :<
 
user3010322
@Rapptz Oh, I don't do the grouping thing.
 
not really hard
 
user3010322
7:07 AM
Yeah, it's just a list in a list...
 
I use std::multimap
the only use I've had for it really
 
user3010322
multimap ?
 
user3010322
But why?
 
user3010322
Groups are index-based.
 
user3010322
Oh, wait, because you can do something silly like connect( 5000, my_func );
 
7:09 AM
I would just do equal_range(group) to get all the slots in the specific group
 
user3010322
How do you handle return values?
 
two ways
one, it just returns the last function result (void functions return nothing obv)
two, you can pass in a callback that takes in the result of the function as a parameter and you can do whatever you want with it
 
user3010322
Hm.
 
issue I'm confused and feel like I'm missing something is cause it isn't complicated at all :<
When I saw other implementations they had std::shared_ptr and std::weak_ptr and I was like whaaat
 
user3010322
... shared_ptr to what?
 
7:12 AM
I have no idea
a 'link' or 'slot'
 
user3010322
<_>
 
user3010322
Oh.
 
user3010322
Right.
 
user3010322
Wait, no that doesn't make sense.
 
user3010322
Even if you hand out links / tokens so you can delete things later...
 
7:12 AM
look at this one for example
ConnectionRef
 
user3010322
What the fuck...
 
user3010322
This is horrendously complicated for no reason.
 
almost all of them do it that way..
I really feel like I'm missing something
 
user3010322
Maybe it has something to do with blocking...?
 
/// SignalLink implements a doubly-linked ring with ref-counted nodes containing the signal handlers.
like.. what ._.
why?
 
user3010322
7:16 AM
These repositories are snorting something mighty fierce.
 
user3010322
> In addition, Boost.Signals2 will ensure that no tracked object expires while the slot it is associated with is in mid-execution. It does so by creating temporary shared_ptr copies of the slot's tracked objects before executing it.
 
user3010322
@Rapptz ^ Maybe that's why.
 
how would that even happen?
 
user3010322
Conflation of responsibilities.
 
user3010322
Boost's Signals2 library also takes ownership with its slot::track stuff.
 
7:21 AM
Perhaps you underestimate the popularity of ref-counting.
 
user3010322
Maybe.
 
user3010322
This was written in a time before move semantics, so the only choices were either copy or reference.
 
I just don't see much of a point :<
then again, iunno
 
user3010322
So perhaps the shared_ptr stuff was written in a time when sharing ownership was the only way to have a singular object but also have some kind of lifetime guarantee?
 
Not accessing stale memory is a big deal.
 
7:28 AM
what I'm getting from this is what they take ownership so you don't delete the pointer in one of the slots?
 
I was referring (heh) to ref-counting in the large, not any particular use.
 
Are there newer, more C++y alternatives to ncurses?
 
user3010322
There might be a wrapper or two.
 
7:48 AM
ncurses doesn't work on Windows afaik
 
Part of me wants to say "who cares". The other part of me is painfully aware that I use a Mac most of the time, so I should really be more open minded.
 
user3010322
Hm.
 
Sorry if I offended. Ultimately I have nothing against Windows, I'm just lazy, and it's much easier not to support the other half.
 
pay me and I will
 
Apparently ncurses does work on Windows. Or at least there is a port.
@Puppy I sha'n't. As much as I wish I could.
 
8:19 AM
@anthropomorphic Hm.. cool.
 
wtf? this is a tip to add images on a SE site?
 
8:35 AM
@ThePhD I just looked at the Platform repository
smh.
Memories.
 
user3010322
Who's fault is that, hmmm?
 
Yours!
 
user3010322
Nope.
 
@anthropomorphic Non-Windows world is not a half, AFAIK.
 
@VáclavZeman It's an expression. I'm aware of the numbers.
You know, like "how the other half lives". I was being liberal with it.
 
8:44 AM
@anthropomorphic We are programmers, we should be precise! :)
 
@VáclavZeman okay, I'll rephrase - "I'm just lazy, and it's much easier not to support the other 90% of users."
I'm happy with supporting my 7% as well as Linux's 2%.
Gosh, that's one of the most discouraging statistics I've read in a while. I knew I was a minority, but I didn't realize it was quite that dramatic.
 
it's pretty simply explained
on Linux they don't seem to understand the idea that users want to use software instead of reading the manual for software
on Windows they seem to have gotten that hint.
Mac seems to be thinking about getting it but their exorbitant prices speak for themselves
 
9:03 AM
@anthropomorphic Well, do you now understand my objection about the half part? :D
@Puppy Ubuntu works pretty much out of the box.
 
@VáclavZeman Yes, but not to the extent of OS X or Windows. I've installed it before and immediately run into problems that, had I not been a techno geek, would have totally prevented me from completing the install.
 
@VáclavZeman If by "works" you mean things like, "The default music player crashes constantly", "The programs all forget my most recently used files", "It eternally bitches about permissions even worse than Windows", etc.
 
@Puppy Heh, ok.
 
and the multi-window support leaves more than a little something to be desired
 
I think the error I ran into was a drive formatting problem. I was using HFS+ when I needed to use NTFS or something like that. Simple to me, but the average user has no idea what any of that means, and they'll just give up and buy Windows Home Premium for like $700 or whatever it's going for nowadays.
 
9:09 AM
most people get Windows through an OEM licence when they buy their machine, and it's cheap as chips.
vastly cheaper than buying a Mac with the same hardware, and much much cheaper than Linux, unless your time counts for nothing
 
I love the world of programs, I hate the world of operating systems. If only I could truly disassociate the two.
 
Come on.
Not today.
 
There needs to be some billionaire who will spend all of their money creating a team of programmers to write a Linux distro which is comparable to OS X and Windows in terms of usability, and then give it away for free.
 
I don't feel like another day of 'Puppy dislikes Linux because he's bad at it'
7
Think of the children.
 
what's this new crazy gcc versioning scheme?
 
9:17 AM
@bamboon New major version every year?
 
@VáclavZeman If I got it right, it's a new major version every release
reminds me of chrome
 
Speaking of Chrome, what is the Chromebook OS called?
 
@anthropomorphic chrome OS I think
 
It's not open source is it?
 
it's built on chromium
 
9:27 AM
Looks like it's called Chromium OS, and it appears to be open source. Interesting. So presumably you don't actually need a Chromebook to have a Chromebook.
 
don't use chromium os
 
chrome os is built on chromium(the os)
the same way as chrome (the browser) is built on chromium (the browser)
 
@Jefffrey I wasn't planning on it, but I'd like to know why you say that.
 
because google and privacy don't go well together
 
@bamboon Oh. That makes sense.
@Jefffrey I'm sure that Google doesn't need me to use Chromium OS in order to invade my privacy.
 
9:32 AM
it does if some of the informations are not already on your google+ account, search history, drive account, calendar app... oh wait
"if you don't pay enough for it, then you are the one being sold" or something, remember?
 
Pretty much everything I do on the internet involves Google in some way. So if the NSA requisitions all of their data, then they will know everything there is to know about me. I'm not super concerned by it though. I don't do a lot of highly illegal stuff.
 
yeah, we already discussed that and "if you don't care about your privacy you are bad and you should feel bad" was the verdict IIRC
doesn't matter if you have things to hide or not
 
Well, in that case I won't force you through the same conversation again.
lol "you are bad and you should feel bad"
 
Do you agree with this answer on moving vectors ?
 
9:47 AM
std::move does not move
 
ok, constructing vectors from rvalues
 
technically speaking it just casts the argument to an rvalue and awaits for the receiving move constructor/assignment to actually move the thing
 
Ell
I'm fine with google knowing everything about me, I agreed to that
 
my reading of the standard was that iterators are not invalidated unless otherwise specified, and it is not for this ctor.
 
std::move is basically just an helper function that help you select the move constructor/assignment
 
Ell
9:49 AM
I didn't agree to giving that info to the NSA (I don't think)
 
hint: google sells your informations
@quantdev the moved from object is in a valid but unspecified state and the moved to object contains the same vector as before, so no, no iterators are invalidated... intuitively
 
@Jefffrey I really don't mind. I wish they were more upfront about it, but the benefits of that are often pretty cool. People get upset about targeted advertising, but I quite like it.
 
Ell
@jefffrey I'm fine with it being sold in order to make them money, but not to get me in trouble :P
 
@Jefffrey, yes, the standard clearly says that no iterators are invalidated unless specified anyway ... I'm hesitating in posting an answer, will wait..
 
For instance, Facebook seems to have figured out that I'm a programmer, and shows me adds from companies like JetBrains, and various online distributed solutions that I'm not about to use right away, but I'm glad I've heard of.
 
9:56 AM
hint: not every information sold is used to please you
 
@Jefffrey plural of information is information
@anthropomorphic +1
 
targeted advertising is not the only side effect of your informations being sold
jesus
it's one of the few side effects you may recognize
 
@Jefffrey I'm not saying you're wrong on this point, but I really can't think of any damaging impact Google could have on my life (other than the NSA thing I mentioned earlier).
Maybe more people than Facebook and Amazon have information about me. I just can't see what they're going to do with it that's going to hurt me.
 
depends on what they notice about you
for example, there's a supermarket in the UK that developed an algorithm that can tell, based on your purchasing habits, with a 90% accuracy rate, whether or not you're pregnant.
then if you are, they send you advertisements for baby stuff.
must be hilarious if you didn't want to share that fact with anyone else.
 
But Puppy, that's about the most useful thing I can think of that they can do with my information.
 
10:01 AM
that depends on whether or not you wanted everyone to know that you were pregnant or not.
 
Perhaps, but even the marketers have a margin of error, and anyone in that situation could claim that the marketers were wrong.
 
sure, with the 90% accuracy rate, everyone's gonna buy that.
 
I had a girlfriend in highschool who would get daily texts advertising viagra. Nobody looked at her funny, we've all been through that.
 
sure, but that's plainly incorrect, instead of almost certainly not incorrect.
 
Yes, but it's also not common knowledge that the advertiser is super accurate.
 
10:04 AM
it pretty much is now.
 
So people will just assume that the advertiser made some dumb mistake, and laugh about it.
 
especially since the pregnancy story made the national news here.
 
I actually did hear that story.
 
.c.o:
	$(CC) $(CFLAGS) -c -o $@ $<
 
10:04 AM
I'm in California, I don't know where you live.
 
does this look okay to you?
 
a long way away from California.
fact is, whilst I certainly object to sharing my personal data with Google, I'd be less concerned if it was reliably just Google.
 
I'm getting "nothing to be done"
 
So the story had a wide reach, and people know that some advertisers are super good at predicting real circumstances in their customers. But nobody is sure about that, and nobody trusts the accuracy of advertising campaigns over the word of their friends/family members.
 
especially when it would be something you might well want to keep private.
cause your friends/family members would never lie about or deny anything they might not want you to know.
 
10:08 AM
You have made a fair point. You have not convinced me to delete my G+ account, but you have at least convinced me that not all big data is beneficial to the little guy.
 
oh, I'd delete your G+ account because G+ is just fucking useless and incredibly annoying, totally apart from any privacy concerns.
 
also deleting just your G+ account does not change much
 
I'd delete my Google account in a second if I had an alternative e-mail provider that I thought would be reasonable
 
@Puppy I agree. But I'm willing to give them some time - they might come up with something worth while eventually.
 
but then again, I highly doubt that Google will delete my tracking data just because I deleted my Google account.
 
10:10 AM
facebook certainly doesn't
 
@anthropomorphic Hire me. I need work, and this project I'm working on might come up with something worth while eventually.
 
you can't even completely delete your facebook account
and you can always go back to when it was undeleted
 
@Puppy Sure, so long as I can pay you a gross sum of $0.00 for your services.
 
you seem happy to pay Google a gross sum of your personal data for their nothing of value.
 
the services google provides are not "nothing of value"
 
10:12 AM
@Jefffrey I posted it anyway ..
 
@Jefffrey Google Plus is.
 
touchè
why can't I take a crap today
everything went fine until yesterday
@quantdev It makes sense but I'm not so sure about it (I didn't downvote nor upvote)
TIL about move_iterators
 
@Puppy Google Plus is nothing of value, but since I don't use it, Google collects nothing extra from me via G+, so we break even.
 
true i guess
 
10:34 AM
G+ is nothing
The bulk of evil is GMail
Trackers are trivial to block
 
g++ = googleplusplus
 
Ell
I use google plus
hangouts is pretty neat
 
@CatPlusPlus What evil is there in Gmail?
 
@anthropomorphic it lets google read your email?
 
Is there an email service that is not able to read your email?
Other than operating your own server
 
10:41 AM
@anthropomorphic there are email services that are not run by companies whose declared goal is to share all the information in the world with everyone. :p
 
I'm sure there are privacy clauses which protect the privacy of one's email.
 
@anthropomorphic lol
 
@jalf you might say that Google can choose to do whatever it wants, and you'd be right, but you have to consider that the very last thing Google wants is for people to find out that they are selling the information in users' private emails.
 
They already openly admitted to scanning email contents
 
10:44 AM
No, the very last thing Google wants is to be prevented from collecting data on their users
that is the one thing that would once and for all break their business
They scan your emails as a matter of course. They don't have an employee assigned to reading everything that passes through your inbox, no, but they scan it to make sure they know as much about you as possible
because that lets them serve more targeted ads
(and also because you never know when it might come in handy)
Googles entire business is fundamentally "collect as much data about our users as we can. Then show them ads"
 
@CatPlusPlus of course they scan email contents. We have spam filters don't we? How do people think those work?
 
@anthropomorphic you think that's all they do with the scanned data?
Really?
 
I never said that was all they did with the data.
I merely pointed out how very obvious it was that Google (at the very least) scans all of your emails.
 
Yeah there's also a very obvious difference
 
@anthropomorphic It's their entire business model.
 
10:50 AM
I'm pretty sure the spam filter takes in consideration other factors when deciding if a mail is spam or not.
 
@anthropomorphic Most paid services at least make it a point to promise that they won't in any way look at your email contents. I'm sure some there are free providers offering the same guarantee too. But no, it's always technically possible afaik, because email uses dumb broken protocols
 
@Rapptz Don't forget the one where a US court orders (I think it's Microsoft) to hand over emails stored in Dublin, because US law clearly extends also to Ireland.
 
Ell
darkmail is going to be secure or whatever
 
I think it's worth knowing that Gmail is in no way private, but I don't think that's a very good reason not to use it.
 
10:52 AM
@anthropomorphic I think it's a pretty good reason
 
When I don't want to be tracked, I hit the deep web with Tor browser. When I don't want my conversations tracked, I encrypt them.
 
Why is everyone so terrible at privacy
 
because privacy is complicated, and therefore difficult, and most people don't really need enforced privacy in their day-to-day life.
 
You're terrible hth
2
 
@anthropomorphic or perhaps rather, most people don't realise they need privacy until it's too late
 
Ell
10:55 AM
@anthropomorphic lol
 
"oh, I sure wish I could erase all the data that was collected on me in relation to X some Y months ago"
"it seemed like a good idea at the time"
 
People most assuredly need enforced privacy in their day-to-day life and you're part of the reason why people with vested interest in violating that privacy can get away with it
 
Okay, you've piqued my interest. What should I do about it?
 
@anthropomorphic given that you don't care about your privacy, nothing?
 
Stop pretending it's okay at least???
 
10:57 AM
People don't need privacy in their day-to-day so they don't realise its importance.
 
@CatPlusPlus the problem is, I don't know where to draw the line. I don't want to outright condemn data collection, because I see real benefit to it.
 
Inconsiderate ass hole done got hit by train... Well does mean I can get refund for tickets
 
@anthropomorphic there is no surer way to be tracked in 2014 than to hit Tor. It's an invitation. A rather blunt one too.
 
What benefit
 
@CatPlusPlus targeted advertising. As I said earlier, I quite like it.
 
10:59 AM
Tor doesn't guarantee privacy anyway, there are ways to correlate activity and find people based on that (esp if you ever not use Tor)
Yeah fuck ads it's not a good reason
 
@CatPlusPlus of course there is benefit. For example if you track how people use transportation you can create better mass transport. There is some privacy cost to that.
 
> I'm a terrible programmer. It wasn't until I started interviewing other people for programming jobs that I realized most other people are far more terrible than I. LOL
6
 

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