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12:01 PM
@Potatoswatter 0x1000, 0x1014 why is it 0x1014 and not 0x1020?
 
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Q: Can std::forward_list members be implemented as static?

Potatoswatterstd::forward_list provides insert_after and erase_after members which do not need to actually access the std::forward_list object. Therefore they can be implemented as static member functions and be called without a list object — useful for an object that wants to delete itself from a list, which...

@LewsTherin Because there are 5 and 4 x 5 = 20 = 0x14
 
oh lol
I didn't convert to hex
I'm not yet a programmer lol
 
I spent most of my teenage years staring at hex dumps of one thing or another. MacsBug, I miss thee.
 
cool I guess lol
 
20 = 16 + 4
0x14 = 0x10 + 0x04
 
12:05 PM
why did you break it to 16 + 4?
it could also be 10 + 10
 
Does 0x0a + 0x0a = 0x14 help you understand hex though?
i.e. I break it to 16 + 4 because that's 16x1 + 1x4 where 16 and 1 are powers of 16.
 
@LewsTherin when trying to figure out numbers in base 16, you split the number into powers of 16. In base 10 it'd make sense to break it into powers of 10
 
Right....
0001 0100 0x14
the problem is I have to keep converting to binary..a slow way. I can't process like you guys
 
Well, mapping two-digit hexadecimal numbers to binary octets is a useful skill.
 
12:10 PM
yep
 
Can I ask again, what are tcp ports? Is it just like an id for a process, but there is no actual "port"
 
What's an actual port?
 
Don't convert the final value to hex/binary, just do the math all in hex. 4*4 = 0x10, then add another 4 = 0x14.
 
no, it's a tcp extension to ip addresses. ip + port == a tcp endpoint
 
I don't think the comparison to a process id is good because an id is only valid while the process runs.
(Might be dependent on OS though.)
 
12:13 PM
An IP packet is something understood by a router do deliver to a networked machine. Then the machine looks at the TCP information inside to dispatch to an application.
 
@LucDanton but the nice thing about hex is that you can instead map single-digit hexadecimal numbers to binary quartets. That's a bit easier :)
 
When I search what a tcp port is I get nothing.. but there are lots of port numbers
What the hell is a port then? :S
 
@LewsTherin just an additional identifying number that helps make up the destination/source address
 
a port is kinda like a channel....it provides a way for two computers to split up data into separate streams
 
you don't send a packet to ip a.b.c.d. You send it to ip a.b.c.d, and write on the packet that it is for port 12345
 
12:15 PM
@LewsTherin It's just a field in the TCP packet format, usually defining what program on the receiving end should receive the packet.
 
then the receiving computer delivers it to whichever application has a connection on thatp ort
 
That makes sense then
So when my browser runs for example, the tcp allocates a random port number + ip address to identify it
Does that mean the port is the application?
 
no, the standard port for HTTP traffice is 80
80 is not an application
 
80 is assigned to an application?
 
but when you create a connection you request/are given a port number
 
12:17 PM
the ip address is assigned (or set) when the computer is plugged into the network, generally...but yeah, the os will pick a random port number for the client side, and the client will know to send to (ie: set the destination port to) port 80
 
80 is just a number. It can't be assigned to anyone or owned by anyone. ;)
but a mapping is created that whenever data arrives on this IP address for the recipient at port 80, then it should be delivered to your application
 
Why use port number? Is confusing..it makes one thinks an actual port exists. I mean appNumber or something would have done lmao
 
What's an actual port though?
 
@LewsTherin then what if an application has multiple ports?
 
You mean with boats?
 
12:19 PM
an appNumber sounds like it identifies an application
but applications can have zero, one or two hundred ports in use
and they can close one port and then open another one
 
@LucDanton in tcp? it's just a number that says which "channel" to send on
 
@jalf You see there is my confusion... close one port? What is this port? lmao
 
Imagine an ancient minicomputer with a roomfull of teletypes, each connected on an ancient 12 volt serial port.
 
it's basically like a P.O. box. You send your package to a certain address, and when it arrives, it goes into P.O. box 417. And then teh post office has a deal with some customer that "you, and no one else, gets to see the contents of box 417"
 
@cHao "it makes one thinks an actual port exists"
 
12:20 PM
Back when the terminology was invented, that's probably what it referred to.
 
an actual port does exist. it's just not a physical thing. :)
 
@LewsTherin an agreement with the network interface that "any packets addressed to this port belong to me"
 
@cHao where does it exist?
 
in the tcp/ip stacks on either end of the connection
 
@jalf "any packets addressed to this port belong to me" this port or port number?
 
12:21 PM
@LewsTherin Where does a byte exist? Where does the mouse cursor exist?
 
and on the packets themselves.
 
In the register?
 
@LewsTherin See my example. As far as the OS abstraction is concerned, applications might as well be I/O devices connected by ports.
 
@LewsTherin they're the same. The port is just a number. A number that is tied to a certain meaning
 
A port == portNumber
 
12:23 PM
basically, yeah.
 
it's just a number that enables you to distinguish between different connections on the same network interface
 
so how do you close a number?
:S
close a port
 
Tell the OS about it.
 
the NIC needs a way to distinguish between "traffic for your World of Warcraft client", "incoming emails", "streaming data for the podcast you're listening to" and whatever other connections you have open. So each is associated with a port number
 
Unless you close the connection assigned to the port is that it?
 
12:25 PM
you don't. you just tell the os "i'm not listening to this port anymore", and the os stops caring about it.
 
So a port is assigned not to an application, but to a connection...
 
yep
 
pretty much, yeah
 
@jalf The NIC doesn't do that, just the OS. The NIC is concerned with the MAC address, not even IPs.
 
although generally, only one application can listen on a given port at any one time
 
12:26 PM
Right that kinda makes sense
 
@cHao yeah, that's pretty much it. Port 7468 doesn't go away if you close the connection. You're just cancelling your agreement with the OS that "data addressed to port 7468 should be delivered to me"
 
I'd say it's the other way around. The connection uses a port. Ports are still meaningful even in the absence of any connection.
 
@LucDanton you mean in the sense of connection-less protocols like UDP?
 
Maybe it isn't assigned to a connection. Port 80 isn't assigned to a connection is it?
 
@LewsTherin sure it is :)
 
12:28 PM
@jalf I mean that "80 is the port for HTTP" is meaningful even when there is no HTTP connection going on.
 
well, when it is in use, anyway
 
You need a port to establish a connection.
 
oh yeah
 
Whereas "Let me do HTTP, better assign port 80" is shady.
 
thing is, "80 is the port for http" isn't true. it's common, but not required (and thus, not to be assumed) that all traffic to/from port 80 is http traffic)
 
12:29 PM
And the part of HTTP which makes it connection is defined by TCP… HTTP only describes the data sent over the connection.
 
@cHao I said nothing about exclusivity :)
So this is all regarding
4 mins ago, by Lews Therin
So a port is assigned not to an application, but to a connection...
which I think isn't terribly accurate and/or useful.
 
@LucDanton it is useful if you're trying to figure out what ports are for ;)
 
yeah....and doesn't get into the part about listening sockets :)
 
Yeah I was going to ask that
When you create a socket, it needs an ip address and port to distinguish it, because there could be several sockets?
 
@LewsTherin not "could be". "is", more likely ;)
 
12:31 PM
@jalf In what way? When is a port assigned to a connection? What happens to the port when the connection is closed? Did the port exist before the connection was up?
 
nearly every computer will have dozens of sockets open at any time :)
 
pretty much, yeah. though for a client socket, you rarely need a port
 
@LucDanton in the way that if you previously thought that the port was mapped to an application, then seeing it as mapped to a connection is a lot more accurate, meaningful and useful
@cHao you still get a port. You just don't ask for a specific one
 
But how does it know which port to look up. A socket is given a port number.
 
you need a port. It just doesn't have to be port 80, or whatever
 
12:33 PM
right
 
@LewsTherin which "it"?
 
the other end rarely cares about the source port, as long as it's consistent
 
@jalf Yeah, but saying 'a connection is tied to a port during its use' is even more accurate, meaningful and useful, isn't it?
 
but it uses the combo of source ip/port and dest ip/port to keep all the connections separate
 
@LucDanton er, assuming you care about what a connection is tied to when it doesn't exist, yes. But some people would argue that the state of a connection when it doesn't exist is kind of pointless to discuss
 
12:34 PM
Ok, say a server sends data to a client. This data contains the source/destination ip and well known port number of the client
 
@jalf Well the focus is more on ports than connections.
 
no, it contains the well-known port number for the server. the client (source) port is more than likely semi-random.
and picked by the client when it connects
 
So the data coming from the server doesn't have a client's port number? How does it know which socket/application to give it to then?
I mean the sockets could have the same ip address
 
@LucDanton yes, which is why I don't see why you obsess so much over connections. The statement "a port is assigned to a connection" is pretty clear IMO. When there is no connection, the entire question is moot. And when there is, a port is assigned to the connection
 
the client initiates the connection. when it does, it says "hey, this is 1.2.3.4, port 54321...lemme connect to 4.3.2.1 port 80"
 
12:37 PM
@LewsTherin True, they have to know each others' port numbers, but that's just another data field to transmit, that's easily done :)
 
mmn so is it only the server that generates ephemeral ports yet using the well known port?
 
"child ports"?
 
@jalf I'm not obsessing over connections per se, but we're describing the relation between ports and connections. If I'm obsessing over anything it's more the meaning of 'is assigned'.
 
@cHao ephemeral
 
the client usually picks from one of it ephemeral ports
the server almost always picks a well-known port
 
12:39 PM
The client initiating the connection has to know the port number it is trying to connect to, but that's assumed to be known already. (When a browser makes a http request, it connects to port 80 if nothing else is specified)
 
@jalf See? The connection matches the port, not the other way around.
 
for the server to respond, it has to discover the client's port, but that's just sent as part of the packets sent during connection
 
@jalf How does it know the client's port though?
Unless the port number is assigned to the client's request
 
@LucDanton I'd say "matches" is pretty much by definition reflexive. If A matches B then B also matches A
otherwise it's nto much of a match, is it?
 
the tcp header (sent with each packet) contains two ports, the source and destination
 
12:41 PM
The Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) is one of the core protocols of the Internet Protocol Suite. TCP is one of the two original components of the suite, complementing the Internet Protocol (IP), and therefore the entire suite is commonly referred to as TCP/IP. TCP provides reliable, ordered delivery of a stream of bytes from a program on one computer to another program on another computer. TCP is the protocol that major Internet applications such as the World Wide Web, email, remote administration and file transfer rely on. Other applications, which do not require reliable data stream s...
 
Ports as an abstraction are rather 'dumb'. I find 'ports are assigned to a connection' misleading because it suggests that there's some busy work associated with using ports. Really the complicated stuff is on the connection side of things, not ports.
 
@LewsTherin the client knows which port it gets when it creates its socket. Then that port number just has to be part of the datagram sent to the server when it tries to initiate a connection
 
@jalf I disagree.
 
@jalf So the server copies the client port number into its reply packet?
 
since the client initiates the connection, it already knows the source port number and stuffs that in. and since it's trying to connect to port 80, that being the destination address, it stuffs that in
 
12:42 PM
@LewsTherin Yep. It only knows what it's been told by the client, after all.
 
So the reply packet has the port number of the client. The tcp checks the port number and sees if it can match it to any socket assigned to that port?
 
@jalf Matching is similar in a way to set membership, which is not reflexive since what's on either side of that operator are not of the same nature.
When you get a match for a regexp, surely that match is not a regexp itself?
How is it that a regexp could match its matches?
 
the reply packet has the IP addresses and port numbers for both the client and the server (with the client set as the destination port). the stack looks for a connection that's tied to that source/destination
(unless it's a SYN packet, but eh. that's another chapter.)
 
Now it makes sense thanks. I have been eating myself up trying to make sense of it
While a socket is an abstraction, without it..an application couldn't possibly connect to the tcp stack..unless we define ours. So it is just an interface right? But does it not make sense to think of a socket has some kind of data structure?
I mean it stores port numbers and ip addresses..
 
Where's the structure in storing two numbers (or one number and a string)?
 
12:49 PM
@LewsTherin sure, there's a data structure associated with the socket. But you don't get to see it because it's used by the OS and the NIC driver. All you see is the abstract interface
 
Data structure != storing stuff.
 
Howdy
 
the data structure is probably somewhere outside your process' address space
@LucDanton if you store stuff in a structured manner then you have a data structure
a struct which stores an ip address and a port number is a (simple) data structure
 
@LucDanton But you need to store "stuff" ha ha ;) somehow. An array, list == data structure?
 
so yes, of course there's a data structure associated with sockets
 
12:50 PM
yeah...in windows, you actually get a handle to a socket...in linux, you get a file descriptor. you only get so much access to a socket through either of those
 
it's just not very relevant to the user of the socket
 
just what the os lets you have
 
@LewsTherin But each of those don't just store items, they also have for instance performance guarantees on some operations (insertion, retrieval, removal). That's tied to the notion of structure.
What can you say about retrieving the endpoint associated with a socket? I'm not disputing that those are stored, I'm saying that we know nothing about the structure of that storage.
 
I assume a socket does all that as well? We need to retrieve socket details at least.
You are confusing me
lol
 
@LucDanton So? Show me a "way to store stuff" for which it is impossible to give performance guarantees for various operations
 
12:52 PM
@LucDanton that's more tied to the notion of an ADT than "structures" in general.
 
@cHao Indeed.
@jalf cat >/dev/null?
 
@LucDanton how exactly does that "store stuff"?
I'd like you to retrieve that data you stored there
then we can talk :)
 
Let me reformulate that 'we know nothing about the structure of that storage'.
 
@LucDanton what is that
 
the socket is almost certainly a structure of some kind. it's not an ADT, but it is a structure, and it does store some data. :)
 
12:54 PM
@LewsTherin "take the output from the cat program and discard it"
 
@cHao yeah that's what I meant.
 
but you, as a mere user, do not have access to most of that data.
 
@jalf cat program :S
 
or if you do, you have to politely ask the OS for it.
 
Hmm, kcachegrind does a lot better with deeply templated code than Shark… it doesn't crash, but it seems to be stuck with this large font size where a single function signature fills the entire screen :v(
 
12:55 PM
"The useful thing about data structure is that we get e.g. performance guarantees for some operations, algorithimic guarantees that are relevant to e.g. ... algorithms."
 
@LewsTherin it doesn't matter what cat does. He was trying to imply that discarding data is a way to "store stuff"
which I disagree with :)
 
@cHao Yeah, I'd assume so
 
Is there an algorithm that benefits from the way and endpoint is stored for a socket?
Now that's about data structures.
 
that's about ADTs.
 
@LucDanton no, a data structure is about structured representation of data
nothing more, nothing less
 
12:56 PM
You can use fifo vs lifo to implement different strategies of tree traversal.
 
that's why it's called a data structure
 
Well I'm using an algorithmic view but I don't know what to call your view?
 
@LucDanton and those are algorithms. The data structure is a tree. It simply describes how data fits together
 
@LucDanton Yes, routers that intercept the data rely on the fact that the endpoint is transmitted with every packet over a socket. So that's certainly at the structure+algorithm level.
 
@LucDanton try "data structure"
 
12:57 PM
a "data structure" is not necessarily a list, tree, stack, or any of that. it's just a container of data. an ADT is what you're thinking of.
 
@jalf There's nothing simple about all that.
 
A data structure typically has some associated algorithms which are used to manipulate the structure. And those algorithms have performance characteristics and all that
 
@jalf I'm speaking of the context. I'm using 'data structure' in an algorithmic context. What context are you using?
 
Guys, I think he is right... it says on wikipedia a way of storing and organizing data efficiently
 
@LucDanton a real-world one? :)
 
12:58 PM
@LucDanton the context of data structures used to structure data
I fail to see the relevance of other contexts
 
@jalf Look if you don't have a name either you can just say so.
 
@LucDanton I thought I just gave you a name
"data structure"
 
I was trying to pinpoint each other's context.
You're not speaking of data structures in the context of data structures.
 
my entire point is that a data structure is a very simple context which does not rely on what algorithms you use to manipulate them, or the performance of those algorithms
 
@jalf (And I was looking for the name of that simple context. Why the aggressivity?)
 
1:00 PM
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKAY! ENOUGH. A socket stores data in a magical way. Who cares?
 
When Lews said "Are not sockets a kind of data structures" (paraphrasing) then yes, in that context that would be accurate. In the context of data structure for algorithms then no, that's not useful.
A term can have more than one use given the context, and I'm trying to dispel the confusion here.
 
@LewsTherin does it say anything about storing arbitrary data efficiently? a struct is a data structure, as it stores a known and specific number of things efficiently -- but it's no ADT.
 
@LewsTherin "Efficiently" is clearly not a requirement ;v)
 
@LucDanton Aggressivity?
 
3 mins ago, by jalf
@LucDanton I thought I just gave you a name
 
1:01 PM
@Potatoswatter I guess not.
 
3 mins ago, by jalf
"data structure"
Attitude?
 
I'm trying to say that "a data structure is a structered way to represent data". That's hardly aggressive
@LucDanton No, it just seems like you're asking the same question repeatedly, until I admit that "you were right all along"
 
What question would that be? (To make sure.)
 
the name of my point of view
 
But 'data structure' is not the name of the context in which 'data structure' is used to mean "a structured way to represent data". That's meaningless.
"When does data structure mean a structured way to represent data?" "In the context of data structure."
 
1:04 PM
@LucDanton no it isn't. When you are simply talking about "data structures" without any further context, then that is all a data structure is
 
Really?
 
in the context of algorithms, there are a lot of other aspects of data structures that are relevant and interesting
but we were talking about how the data associated with a socket is represented
it is stored in a data structure of some kind
 
@jalf Indeed, and that's the one I defaulted to. I was curious to what you defaulted to. Saying it's "data structure, duh" (my words, not yours) came off as somewhat rude.
Difference in expectations it appears.
 
"data structure" != "ADT".
 
@jalf Yes I get that. But that's not the name of a context.
 
1:06 PM
@LucDanton I wasn't aware contexts had standardized unambiguous names ;)
 
@jalf I'm not saying that. I'm saying it doesn't look like a good description of a context.
2 mins ago, by Luc Danton
"When does data structure mean a structured way to represent data?" "In the context of data structure."
 
honestly, who cares?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought we were talking about sockets, and the state associated with sockets
 
I'm sorry but you're really coming off as ruder and ruder.
 
you're the one who wants to talk about contexts. Why? What does it matter? Where is the relevance to anything that has been said here in the last 20 minutes?
 
@jalf "Indeed, and that's the one I defaulted to. I was curious to what you defaulted to."
 
1:08 PM
Well, I get frustrated when people spend 15 minutes trying to change the subject of a discussion for no apparent reason
 
That's why. I want to know your view on things.
 
"data structure" pretty much always mans "a structured way to store data". an algorithmic context might imbue the term with more meaning, but until that context is introduced, there's no good reason (other than misplaced pedantry) to expect that extra meaning.
 
@LucDanton Perhaps I don't understand. What is it about my view that is unclear?
 
@cHao What's the use of a data structure without an algorithm?
@jalf What it's called. If it has a name.
 
@LucDanton there doesn't have to be one
 
1:09 PM
to store and retrieve data.
 
E.g. I was using the algorithmic view.
 
The algorithms exist, they're just not what we're interested in right now
 
@jalf I cannot find anything either.
@jalf 'E.g.' means 'for instance'. So the fact that my example mention algorithms doesn't mean I'm claiming that's relevant right now.
 
So what is relevant?
The rest of us were simply saying that "yes, somewhere under the hood, there is a data structure in which the state associated with a socket is stored"
what algorithms the OS uses to manipulate the data structure is pretty irrelevant
 
Whoah, really?
 
1:13 PM
really.
 
I don't take "A socket is a data structure" as shorthand for "A socket uses a data structure".
No wonder that got out of hand.
 
I don't follow
 
You guys need to transmit endpoints more often so the data goes to the right topic-processing application :vP .
 
as far as I know, I claimed that neither of those is true
 
@Potatoswatter lol
 
1:14 PM
Well, I've finally installed Ubuntu so it's time to give $5 to the cafe (a small fortune) and finally make dinner. See ya!
 
a socket is associated with a data structure. It doesn't "use" anything, because the socket is just an abstract representation of that data structure
 
I went back higher in the conversion.
 
An int doesn't use a register, and it is not a register. But it may be associated with a register by the compiler
 
I read "But does it not make sense to think of a socket has some kind of data structure?" as "But does it not make sense to think of a socket as some kind of data structure?"
 
What does it mean a socket is associated with a data structure? Is it a data structure? Or does it use a data structure? I think it is a data structure
 
1:16 PM
(Original snippet, emphasis mine, etc.)
 
@LucDanton oh, I see :)
@LewsTherin do you also then think that an int is a register? ;)
the "socket" is just an abstract concept used by us to make it easier to reason about network connections
 
@jalf no but I guess it uses one
 
ultimately, it is just a name
which is used to describe the programming interface
which is implemented in terms some unspecified data structures
 
@LewsTherin a socket is the agreement between you and the OS to send and receive data a particular way. that's it.
 
'Think of [X] has' is an evil typo :(
 
1:17 PM
@LucDanton yes sorry
The book I'm reading actually says a socket when you create one creates a structure and file descriptor to the structure is stored in a table.
 
that's *nix specific
 
So it depends then... I hope this doesn't create another bloody argument, but should it be.. a socket uses or is? I guess it is "uses"
 
if you think of the "socket" as the number/pointer you get back when you call socket(...), that'll suffice for just about all cases. you can't make any guarantees about what the os will do to handle that socket
other than send and receive data and such according to the tcp/ip specs
 
@LewsTherin depends on your point of view :)
 
@cHao mmn thinking of a socket has a number is weird. Especially when it says an application plugs into the socket, and the tcp plugs into the socket. How does something plug into a number?
 
1:21 PM
and unless you're writing a tcp/ip stack, you don't have to care
 
Omg, is that a 3some?
 
I guess it'd be more object-oriented to say that the socket is an object which uses certain resources. I tend to think of the socket as just a handle, which doesn't do anything by itself
 
that number is a handle.
 
what does handle mean? Some books use handle as a pointer. And a fd isn't a pointer
 
@LewsTherin I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that an application "plugs into" a socket though
 
1:23 PM
a handle is a number/pointer that has specific meaning to another system, but not to you. to you, it's just "something". treat it as opaque
 
@LewsTherin a handle is just something you hang on to :)
and which is attached to something else
 
and yeah...hold on to it :)
 
@jalf first link
Ha, I see lol. Like a remote control.
 
yeah, for example. ;)
well, except that a handle is typically just an integer or something. A simple identifier that you can't do anything with
but when you tell the OS to do something with this handle, it can look up the underlying resource
and apply the requested operation to that
 
@jalf But it is the thing that it references that stuff can be done with
Yeah I get that thanks
 
1:25 PM
So more like a a ticket or a receipt or something
 
Now I just have to learn the programming. :(
 
you hand over your jacket in the wardrobe, and get a piece of paper back. That paper is now your handle to your jacket. When you want your jacket, you have to show that piece of paper ;)
2
 
@jalf Wow that's a good analogy
So could you say the file descriptor is an handle to the socket object?
I think OOP actually is good for something.
@LucDanton can you run your haskell? It doesn't work for me
 
What particular executable/command?
 
@LewsTherin yeah, I guess so
 
1:32 PM
@LucDanton I checked at the dashboard
@jalf Guess so? ha ha
 
well, it depends on what you mean by "socket". You could say that the file descriptor IS A socket IS A handle to some OS-level resource. Or you could say that the socket is the underlying OS resource, and the fd is the handle to that
 
I think the last statement makes more sense lol
 
Yeah, probably
 
either way, you can treat the fd as "the socket", and the os will do whatever it has to to accommodate that
 
Yeah, it is equivalent
I guess with this I can make my own msn lol
or SO
 
1:38 PM
you could, if you wanted to spend forever doing it :)
 
lol
 
MSN and SO rely on higher-level abstractions
like HTTP
 
That's discouraging, why is HTTP on the application layer? Because it determines how the stuff is interpreted?
 
because of how the layering models work, mostly. HTTP relies on lower-level protocols, which rely on lower-level protocols themselves
as has been mentioned, tcp/ip layers roughly -- but not exactly -- map to OSI layers
 
yeah... but I don't understand why HTTP is on the application layer. The browser makes a request for an html page, the server concedes what's different?
 
1:45 PM
where else would it be?
 
@LewsTherin Because it's not concerned with pure transportation of data, but starts making application-specific assumptions about what the data is
TCP and IP and all the lower-level protocols just deal with getting data from A to B
where "data" is absolutely anything you like
The HTTP protocol is for handling a specific type of data
or making specific types of requests and responses, I guess
 
@jalf Your explanation shows me the difference, thanks
 
Applications don't actually see the lower-level protocols. You just create a socket, and then magic happens, so that you can write a HTTP request. So the HTTP request is the application's responsibility
 
What is this lower-level protocol? tcp/ip? What is higher level then?
Or does it depend?
 
Application Layer protocols could be seen as "higher level"
Network Layer and Data Link Layer and below i guess could be considered "lower level"
 
1:52 PM
@TonyTheLion A tcp/ip can be seen as higher level from the standpoint of the datalink layer
 
Wow, guess I'm going to NUST after all.
 
@IntermediateHacker NUST?
 
@LewsTherin sure, so it's from where you look
 
These guys made the Devrim II
The Devrim II is the first ever Hybrid Car of Pakistan, designed and fabricated by students of NUST using local resources, in 2010. A group of Eleven Engineering students from Department of Mechanical Engineering, Department of Mechatronics Engineering and Department of Electrical Engineering , named as Pak-Wheelers, from E&ME College of NUST participated in the Shell Eco-marathon Asia in July 2010 with their Hybrid Car. Notable Features Some of the notable things about Devrim II are * Electric gasoline series hybrid vehicle * Regenerative braking system * EFI and VEMS * Efficient Driving...
 
oh wow
 
1:54 PM
It's way better than UAE University anyway
only problem is, it's in Pakistan
Sure hope there isn't a flood while I'm studying
 
heheh, surely you'll be fine
 
@TonyTheLion yeah, I hope so. :D
 
wish I could go to MIT... but it's WAY expensive. :(
anyone here studying in MIT?
 
Can you get a scholarship or something
 

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