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17:01
@R.MartinhoFernandes Please take a look at this -> doc.pypy.org/en/latest/…
in WPF, 1 min ago, by Billdr
Spamming chats with my website, http://tipbitco.in, feels unethcial @JohanLarsson.
@JohanLarsson lol
@GamesBrainiac Hmm, not sure I have the needed knowledge of Python implementation internals to grok that.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I get most of the part, except this "just generating C code and using clang might be enough"
So ideally, the interpreter will just compile the code, and piggy back on clang to make it an intrepreter, since clang can potentially make compile times faster?
@GamesBrainiac I suppose that's similar to the old GHC GCC backend: it just translated Haskell to C, and then did normal compilation with GCC. The LLVM backend translates Haskell directly to LLVM bitcode and goes from there.
@GamesBrainiac Yeah, it would translate Python to C and leave the rest to clang.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Then it is a VM, right? Since bytecode is involved?
17:07
@GamesBrainiac Nah, not really. The bitcode is just the common language that the LLVM optimiser/code-generator speaks.
Clang uses it too.
There used to be a way to interpret it I think, and I assume that if it's still there it's more of a curiosity / proof-of-concept than a tool with actual use.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Last question then. If LLVM ideally is as good as compiling into machine code, then potentially, a LLVM implementation of Python can be just as fast as C++, or am I wrong? Or is there not enough type information in a dynamic language to do something like this?
I'm not sure I want to answer that :S It depends highly on the program at hand, and with enough optimisations (because you can still perform your own optimisations before translating the Python to LLVM bitcode) any program can be made to run as fast as an (strictly) equivalent one written in another language.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Thus theoretically possible. I get it. Thanks.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I would guess that the compiler produced code for such a conversion would not be as optimal as one written by a human in the target language directly. Using the natural syntactical constructs of that language
17:19
So this lab was from 12:30-14:20.
All it is is finding a lab partner and WHMIS, which I already did.
@A.H. Human language is too ambiguous. At least thats what I feel
And working on a prelab if we want to now, which I nearly completed in a minute.
@GamesBrainiac I thought we were talking about programming languages
@chris labs are awesome, easiest A's ever
@GamesBrainiac LLVM output code isn't about being faster than, say, GCC's output code. It's about the fact that GCC's code generator is unusably coupled to GCC, whereas LLVM is more than flexible enough to be re-used for other languages.
@A.H. That's what people said when the first languages like C came along, but of course, we both know that a compiler can routinely beat a human.
17:22
@DeadMG yeah when it comes to assembly , but I don't think translating a program in lets say prolog to C by a compiler is the same
Ell
Ell
Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.
@GamesBrainiac The core issue here is information- namely, that C++ gives lots of guarantees about what you can and cannot do, whereas Python does not. So there's not much way to convert Python into strictly equivalent C++.
Ell
Ell
FUUUUUUUuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
@A.H. It's an identical problem, really (except that C and asm are a lot more similar than, say, Prolog and C, of course).
@A.H. lol If only my labs had functioning equipment. And sane teachers, who don't disallow the use of c++11. Ever since shared and unique pointers, C++ became a lot more usable.
17:24
@TonyTheLion sounds tasty
@GamesBrainiac last semester I had to use pthreads in a C++ project
not even boost
@A.H. I was stuck with c++98
There have been changes in the File IO lib, really awesome changes. But C++98 ddnt have that. Which sucks.
and they demanded that I create a wrapper class for a mutex to demonstrate that I understand them.........
@A.H. I don't even know what that means. :P
@JohannesSchaub-litb line breaks please
@GamesBrainiac they wanted a class with a function called lock that doesn't do anything besides locking a mutex
17:26
@A.H. I am insulted
C++ > C is a question that is not allowed to be asked
@A.H. Just asking, this is pretty advanced shit, right? I mean, I haven't used C++ for much other than fluffy stuff! :P
I'm mostly a python guy
@JohannesSchaub-litb whats weird about that
@GamesBrainiac its basic if you have ever used threads
@A.H. Never used threads. If I need something async, I just use JS
@DeadMG you are probably right , I have a very limited understanding of compilers
17:30
@A.H. GHC can do that shrug.
@A.H. How many objects are created? (Ignoring any potential temporaries that won't live longer than the semicolon.)
@A.H. Well, the core thing to understand here is that LLVM can be the backend of virtually any language. Wide, C++, Haskell, Python, Javascript, pretty much anyshit.
@LucDanton 2, I think
and it can produce Javascript as output
so you can compile javascript to javascript
That's the weird part.
17:32
@JohannesSchaub-litb awesome
@LucDanton how so ?
I don't know what to call my logfile. log, log.txt, log.log, ..
@DeadMG I like how you put Wide up front.
I'd love to see the output of Javascript -> LLVM IR -> Javascript roundtripped a few times.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Obviously the most notable use of LLVM to date.
2
i guess it would get to a fixpoint
17:32
@StackedCrooked LOG_FILE_<DATE>
@DeadMG That sounds like an awesome idea. Repeat it until it stabilises.
@A.H. Different things (with different semantics) which look superficially similar.
@StackedCrooked log.log Thats what I always do atleast
not sure wether you can prove it formally
It's annoying in generic code because sometimes a same syntax will change in meaning depending on the instantiation.
17:33
@LucDanton well , yeah I guess
@MatthiasVallentin because of things like coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/d64a2752a07dc380, I dislike list initialization. For my taste, there are just too many special cases, and when people say "T t(T()); is ambiguous, therefor list initialization is preferred" I can only laugh and point to the whole bag of semantic user-level ambiguity of list initialization. — Johannes Schaub - litb 4 mins ago
@A.H. ^
its not ambiguous if you look to the type on the left IMO
@DeadMG any idea when wide will be easily usable and with a reference ? :p. I would like to try it out some day
not until I'm relatively satisfied with it
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah , but would a programmer solving the same problem directly in C result in a 'better' program ?
you wouldn't really wanna use Wide right now
17:38
@A.H. Probably not, because compiler-generated code has less restraints: code doesn't have to be readable nor maintainable. At least not without a lot of man-hours poured into turning it into a super fast unreadable mess.
I introduced a shitload of bugs and haven't written the tests to find and fix them yet
Compilers tend to generate the fast unreadable messes up front.
@DeadMG This is actually really understandable especially if you have a lot of weight on your forearm. Though to be honest, they probably shouldn't have bothered in the first place.
It's like the difference between filling your glass by turning the tap open (what's the right expression to say that?) and letting it fill in a controlled manner, or just smashing the tap with a hammer and trying to fill the glass from the jet that pours forth afterwards.
Compilers can do it with the latter method.
I've never heard of that expression
17:44
I hate android studio.
Then again you guys do make up a lot of them
@Rapptz What do you do to a tap to get water from it?
Open it?
@Rapptz Yeah, I know. Apparently some people are just like that. It's just irritating.
@Rapptz Anything I say is perfectly cromulent.
17:44
@R.MartinhoFernandes Turn it on.
I say Open it
To be honest people just say "pour some tap water"
maybe a regional/continental difference?
"Can you pour me some tap water?" etc
Wikunia wishes you a Happy Programmers' Day! ;)
17:47
Lounge<Tap Water>
@DeadMG "Open the tap" vs "Turn on the tap" I guess
@R.MartinhoFernandes Seduce it.
3
lol
@Rapptz I wanted to ask, who's the guy in your avatar?
A drawing I made
17:49
I should stop doing this. Why am I always inappropriately dressed for whatever the weather is currently.
@Rapptz You can code and draw. Cool.
I can't draw anymore, no. That drawing is 10 years old. Soon to be 11.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Because you have too many clothes?
@Rapptz Dayyum. Do you still watch anime?
My desk stopped responding.
@GamesBrainiac Yes.
17:51
@R.MartinhoFernandes Seduce it.
@R.MartinhoFernandes You'd be dead here.
"Oh, looks like it's not that cold outside... OH SHIT WHAT THE FUCK"
Ah, it's back.
@Rapptz What are you watching currently?
@GamesBrainiac Thanks, it worked.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hey, I learn from the best.
17:51
@R.MartinhoFernandes I wear short sleeves until it hits about 6 C.
@EtiennedeMartel My problem is that I skip the part before the ellipsis.
Look, clothes. Take the one on top. Leave the house.
Can I set up windows to use a specific keyboard layout for a given application? (I.e. I'm tired of changing the layout of Putty to US every time I launch it.)
@GamesBrainiac Nothing!
@LucDanton I've pined for that for a long time. I think not.
@LucDanton You can't Alt + Shift?
17:53
Alt+Shift is horrible :S
Why?
Works well for my tri-language set-up I have
Whoever though half a keyboard shortcut would make a good keyboard shortcut should be shot.
@Rapptz Doesn't appear to work with Putty.
I use Alt+Shift+1, Alt+Shift+2, and Alt+Shift+3 to jump directly to a specific layout instead of Alt+Shift to cycle.
17:54
@TonyTheLion Where do you get this shit?
I mean even before starting a session when filling in the host.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Problem is those shortcuts interfere with other programs :S
Eh, alt+shift doesn't seem to work today. Odd.
@Rapptz Add more modifiers!
:P
Ctrl+Alt+Shift+Super+1.
What keyboard has Ctrl and Super?
17:56
Then get an extra set of hands, and install emacs while you are at it.
@GamesBrainiac reddit. I don't know why you have to ask that.
@Rapptz Super is the Windows logo thingy, no?
user1804599
@Rapptz All.
I thought Super was the mac equivalent of Ctrl
That's Command.
user1804599
17:57
Mac keyboards have both.
user1804599
Command is usually Windows key if you use it on Windows.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I.. call that "Windows Key" :s
user1804599
Control
Alt/option
Super/Windows/command
Apparently so does Wikipedia.
@Rapptz But freedom!
user1804599
17:58
Though I am still puzzled by the meta key.
user1804599
Oh right, I was going to install Windows.
"In the OSX environment, the super key is reference to the Command Key."
Wait, if Clang works out well, does that mean, we'll see more C++ web frameworks, since compilation times will be much lower? Just an open question, since that would be an interesting scenario.
meh.. keyboards.
Hehe, Johnathan Wakely keeps referring to that push_back_ thingy as std::vector::buffer_overrun()
18:00
@GamesBrainiac Lack of C++ on the Web has nothing to do with slow compilation times.
That's not going to become reality right?
Same with the std::put thing?
I'm hoping :(
@EtiennedeMartel Really? The only thing I know about compiled languages not being on the web, is that there's no hot reload. So, it makes development a pain. That seemed to be the rhetoric of a guy from Linked in who was trying to pus the Play 2.0 framework.
@Rapptz I'm pretty sure it won't. It's just the inmates fooling around.
@GamesBrainiac There's no hot reload on the desktop and I still managed to debug my shit.
@R.MartinhoFernandes What about std::put?!
18:03
@Rapptz Dunno what that is.
> Make your changes and simply hit refresh! All you need is a browser and a text editor.
Like PHP then.
Boost.Format in std form.
except with printf syntax
@EtiennedeMartel Yes, but if most of your time's spent on waiting. Then you do have a problem. Perhaps its not to do with debugging, but just the speed at which you can launch a web app?
18:03
(%d, %s etc)
Which is how Boost.Format operates.
@GamesBrainiac Most of your time is spent on working.
Web development isn't any different from any other kind of development.
You know, I've only seen Boost.Format with positional arguments.
user1804599
Disk.
user1804599
Y u fail to write.
user1804599
18:04
Fuck you DVD.
I know RoR devs want to feel unique.
Ah, it supports both style (and the proposal as well).
But fuck it.
user1804599
Fragile piece of shit.
The type thingies are completely ignored btw.
18:04
I tell windows to update the time from the net...it does, apparently my clock was 2 minutes behind...and it then tells me that updating the time failed because the response timed out. They mesured the timeout with the OS time? :p
@EtiennedeMartel Arrite, then tell me why there's a lack of C++. It has plenty of features.
@GamesBrainiac Lack of proper tooling.
That's all there is, really.
Making a Web app in C++ takes a long time, and not because you spend more time compiling it.
user1804599
Making a web app takes a long time, because it's boring and terrible.
18:06
@EtiennedeMartel why would you make a web app. period.
@melak47 Because you want your users to interact with it using a Web browser?
@EtiennedeMartel CGI?
@A.H. That's the legacy way.
@EtiennedeMartel There's no web framework like django or ror?
@not-rightfold I don't actually disagree.
18:07
I am curios whats a modern technique for that ?
@GamesBrainiac There are, but they all suck.
user1804599
Use Django.
And anyway, what makes RoR or Django great is how they handle the boilerplate for you.
@not-rightfold You say that because you are weak willed.
@TonyTheLion Hmm, wanna try that!
@EtiennedeMartel I like using django to make apps. Its awesome! :D
I hate RoR though.
18:08
Bacon made of lion!
@R.MartinhoFernandes Let's eat Tony.
@EtiennedeMartel have them call and enter base64 encoded data verbally into an automated system :p
user1804599
Oh God.
user1804599
Oh oh God.
user1804599
Time to enter Boot Camp hell again.
18:09
@EtiennedeMartel Now we're talkin! :D
@not-rightfold You php code died?
@melak47 Now I'm fearing such a system might have existed at some point.
Ooooh, almost dinner time.
@R.MartinhoFernandes imagine the poor robot who has to listen to this all day
Tis fucking cold outside.
I'm getting confused by subshells. What's a runner script that sets up e.g. LD_LIBRARY_PATH supposed to look like?
user1804599
@GamesBrainiac That's not a sentence.
18:10
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol
And I'm wearing only a shirt.
@LucDanton ?
Oh.
user1804599
Also, I hope Npgsql supports hstores and sequences.
What about just LD_LIBRARY_PATH=blah program?
@not-rightfold btw, what IDE do you use?
user1804599
@GamesBrainiac Vim.
18:11
@R.MartinhoFernandes shouldn't you be appending ?
user1804599
Ah, so I found some flash drive and the partition on it was named “NIGGERS”.
@A.H. That's the blah part :)
> Aasif Mandvi learns that greedy farmers have threatened the livelihood of Monsanto's heroic patent attorneys.
I love The Daily Show.
hehe
@EtiennedeMartel just watched that one
@not-rightfold Sounds reasonable.
18:12
Twerking () is a type of dancing in which the dancer, usually a woman, shakes her hips in an up-and-down bouncing motion, causing the dancer's buttocks to shake, "wobble" and "jiggle". According to the Oxford Dictionary Online, to twerk is "to dance to popular music in a sexually provocative manner involving thrusting hip movements and a low, squatting stance". The word twerking is of uncertain origin. Possibilities include a contraction of "footwork", or a portmanteau of twist and jerk. Possible origins Comparisons have been made with traditional African dances, for instance the Mapouk...
TIL
I never looked it up.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Never mind, now it doesn't complain anymore. This is driving me mad.
user1804599
Geez.
user1804599
Downloading Windows support software takes ages.
@TonyTheLion TIL it's on Wikipedia
@LucDanton Try not to end up in the Asylum.
Now I'm out.
Bye.
18:13
Maybe ld put something in an internal cache or something I don't know :(
cya @R.MartinhoFernandes
> Juicy J has announced via Twitter that he is giving out a $50,000 scholarship for the girl who can twerk the best. The competition is inspired by the track "Scholarship" on his upcoming album Stay Trippy, which contains the lyric "Keep twerking baby, might earn you a scholarship."[14]
wot.
@Rapptz Welcome to Murica.
user1804599
Fuuuuuuuuck.
Mac Vim looks so pretty. This is not fair.
Mac Vim looks so pretty. This is not fair.
18:16
> A priest, two priests, and a parrot walk into a bar... Actually wait... the bartender is a parrot, and he was already there. The parrot says to the bartender "Why didn't you just say three priests?" The first priest slowly inserts his fist into his own asshole. He works his way up to the wrist, then to the elbow. Soon enough, his entire arm up to his shoulder is wedged into his ass. The second priest turns to the third priest and says "Well, I didn't ass-shoulder that one coming."
@StackedCrooked I am very confused.
I found a new subreddit.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm having troubles with displaying e.g. listchars=tab:▸-, so if you have any font recommendation for Putty here I'd be grateful. (Anyone else feel free to comment as well.)
@Pawnguy7 It's kinda brilliant.
@Rapptz That is just fucking stupid... omg
18:22
@Rapptz live and let live..
What does "it doesn't work" mean? Does it claim social security benefits and drink your beer? — us2012 58 secs ago
@MohammadAliBaydoun what does it do? nothing! what do you see? nothing? what did you do ? nothing!
@StackedCrooked Sounds like a lot of the questions coming in lately :D
what's the problem then? it doesn't work!
:D
:179910 @Jerry I am known for posting my address here :P
18:27
does stackoverflow give actual physical awards :-P ?
@user1587504 annual bonus rewards
no 64 rep doesn't qualify
Ohai Bartek!
seriously?. any availing policy is detailed?. curious!
'ello
@sehe @CatPlusPlus Set up the ZFS, it's been a breeze :) Much thanks for the recommendation and guidance.
18:31
@BartekBanachewicz seriously?. any availing policy is detailed?. curious!
@user1587504 lots of rep
@TonyTheLion hi Tony
@user1587504 look on Meta
Where have you been?
@BartekBanachewicz kay
@TonyTheLion places
sounds fun
18:33
@A.H. These actually are a free nearly 20%, assuming we get 60% on our final. They're worth less if the final is less.
@TonyTheLion bah, dunno
Any quick Or easy way to design local webapp like this website for say a small project team
?
Coliru integration on cppreference seems borky now.
whenever I add a new regex , I have this feeling that all the tests are going to fail.
template<int I> struct Foo {constexpr int get () { return I; }}; struct Obj : Foo<10> { }; ... Obj obj; std::array<int, obj.get ()> asd;, this compiles but I'm not sure if it's valid from the standards point of view.. anyone that knows about it?
oh hold on..
18:42
obj needs to be declared constexpr, assuming it is a variable.
I forgot to mention that Obj doesn't have a trivial ctor, clang accepts it though.. (with the non-trivial ctor) but g++ refuses
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz How is your degree going?
@refp Ya that's needed as well.
@LucDanton declaring Obj as constexpr isn't neccesary though since it implicitly will be (it can't be of any other kind (with the above snippet, that is))
18:46
mhm
I don't see why obj has to be constexpr either :s
oh get isn't static. I know static constexpr would work on non-constexpr variables in GCC.
or what the.. fuck
(the "what the.. fuck" is not related to the discussion whether you need to explicitly declare something constexpr if there isn't any way to treat the object btw)
@LucDanton their example looks valid
i think the kind of variable at the left side is irrelevant?
for some reason I thought it didn't, guess I must have messed something up while playing around
@JohannesSchaub-litb so what do you say, legal or not?
#include <iostream>
#include <array>

template<int I>
struct Foo {
  constexpr Foo () = default;
  constexpr int get_data () const { return I; }
};

struct Obj : Foo<10> {
    Obj (int d) : dummy (d) { }
    int dummy;
};

int
main (int argc, char *argv[])
{
  Obj obj { 1 };
  std::array<int, obj.get_data ()> korv;
}
of course i don'T know the rules that good so i shall not say anything about your code
18:52
I hope it's legal, it would make what I'm working on a lot neater
or well, having constexpr functions (who are not static) in an object which isn't constexpr without using some inheritance hack would be even neater, but that ship has sailed I guess
hmm
I succeeded in typechecking f(x) { if (x > 5) return f(3); return x; }.
but f(x) { if (x > 5) return bar(3); return x; } bar(x) { return f(x - 1); } fails to typecheck.
@BartekBanachewicz what degree?
@Pawnguy7 like, you know, school
Ell
Ell
android is so mundane to work with
and linux distros have been failing me lately
I'm losing faith!

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