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15:00
@CatPlusPlus Great! Just make sure you've pushed everything before then.
warning seriously messed up indavidual (collects his own peeled skin)
> Clockwise from top, the names I've invented - bits, big pieces, single layer, crescents, ropes. The crescents only come from the back of the heel where the skin is thickest.
Sounds like an entire science has developed.
@thecoshman It takes every kind of people.
@thecoshman picture won't load :<
15:09
@thecoshman win?
@thecoshman I'm sure @sehe would like to see that.
@EtiennedeMartel I'm sure he wouldn't.
he already did
@thecoshman oh now it works
15:10
@EtiennedeMartel I'm sure @sehe would appreciate not getting pinged loads
@sehe isn't that right?
@thecoshman I'm so subtle. I'm sure @sehe knows that.
I think @sehe would be fine with it
I dunno @sehe might mind being pinged
@EtiennedeMartel I'm sure @sehe does know that
@A.H. @sehe might mind yeah...
@thecoshman @sehe should let us know
15:12
@A.H. @sehe should
@sehe do you mind us pinging you?
@sehe like this... for example
I really need a good RPG right now.
Microsoft, y u no respond ._.
@GamesBrainiac eve
> MSBuild doesn't work with Visual Fortran projects ( *.vfproc ).
I'm shaking.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I am sorry are you using FORTRAN ?!?
15:16
@A.H. Gosh, no.
@R.MartinhoFernandes visual fortran o.O
fortran has its niches
Still, the fact that Visual Fortran is a thing scares me.
it's not in the "other languages" category
I actually plan on learning FORTRAN
just need to find a good reference
15:17
it's quite easy
especially compared to the dragon that is C++
yes but does a good reference on FORTRAN 2003 (thats the latest right? ) exist ?
hello world
user1174868
Is there a pointer tutorial on the internet that actually makes sense? I just want to know how to assign values and such
fuck.
VS crashes when I try to debug.
15:20
@A.H. there are probably good references out there but frankly, you can even do without ... the language itself is very straightforward
@DeadMG Fun. (2013?)
u no find bug
yeah
I would try 2012 but since I installed 2013 RC, 2012 can't open
@ripDaddy69 *pointer = value?
user1174868
@Pawnguy7 Doesn't work
15:21
@DeadMG ^_^ I had that too, on my laptop
@ripDaddy69 have some code?
user1174868
umm
user1174868
I would have to rewrite it
@ripDaddy69 not supposed to work
@DeadMG Did you try uninstalling?
user1174868
15:22
I have been messing around with it for an hour
@R.MartinhoFernandes If it doesn't work, I'll be left with no working IDE.
@DeadMG what are you debugging :D
@A.H. it isn't?
@melak47 Wide.
15:23
@Pawnguy7 yeah you are generally not supposed to assign ints to pointers
@DeadMG Yeah, I was just wondering if had taken the risk and it still didn't work and then just reinstalled.
@DeadMG Wait, I think I saw this problem. Let me find you the link
Windows Guy at work has both installed and working.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Windows needs to be rolled back from the world
@A.H. That was the example I remember seeing when I first learned it. Or some primitive anyway.
15:23
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah, it worked fine on my desktop, but on my laptop 2013 killed 2012
user1174868
my laptop also still has ~windows8~ on it, though.
Oh, and in the specific thing, I assumed it was a pointer to a value, and you were changing the value.
Now, if I want to download a bunch of dependencies from the interwebs for my build on Windows, what are my best options?
user1174868
I am trying to print 7 not 99
15:24
`int test (int a){
int *ptr = &a;
*ptr = 7;`
(No clickety-things: has to be automated)
@DeadMG Sorry, can't find it. I solved this, it happened to me. But, I just forgot.
You are pointing to a copy of it there.
@ripDaddy69 doesn't work because your pointer points to the local stack parameter. not the one in main
@R.MartinhoFernandes Cry in a corner.
15:25
a gets copied since you pass it by value into test
int test(int& a){...}
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, frankly, I don't have that much faith that VS2012 would be much better. That shit had a nasty habit of crashing.
I guess I could install wget :S
user1174868
@A.H. So I need to pass in the memory address not the variable?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Which dependencies?
15:26
Or maybe put them on a shared folder and get them from there.
@ripDaddy69 pass a pointer , or by reference
@ripDaddy69 Should work if you pass it by reference as Marc showed.
@DeadMG Libraries and shit. Eigen, Freetype, ... that kind of thing.
user1174868
@A.H. Can I pass in the memory address?
user1174868
What is pass by reference?
15:26
yes , but why ?
@R.MartinhoFernandes I've heard NuGet supposedly does that kinda stuff
well, I guess that logically there's nothing stopping you writing a Python script or something to download them.
but idk about c++ libs :E
@melak47 Oh, I almost forgot that they added C++ support to NuGet.
15:26
Do they teach references or pointers first? I forget.
user1174868
Cool I got it
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's worth a shot I guess...but I wouldn't get my hopes up :)
user1174868
My class didn't teach me anything
reference is a pointer , thats how I would teach it @Pawnguy7
@DeadMG Yeah, I'll probably do that since that can be used for all platforms with some effort to pick the right sources for each.
user1174868
15:27
just some english second language guy rambling on about stuff while he rams shortcuts into a terminal
passing by reference does that implicitly
@Pawnguy7 references should be taught first
@R.MartinhoFernandes a python script that downloads and builds boost?
That seems to be how I remember it, yes. Though the bad things happen by copy came later I imagine :D
15:28
@A.H. And the rest of the libs we need, yes.
We already have a script to do a minimal boost build (i.e. only the stuff we care about).
@R.MartinhoFernandes NuGet has boost, but not eigen
@R.MartinhoFernandes you should make a package management tool, like in a cross platform way
so..guess that doesn't do much for you :)
I remember, I was getting a pointer - or, something of that sort - to an object. Instead, a copy of it ended up being destroyed. Took me a while to find that.
user1174868
I just find it amazing how there are so few native english speakers teaching my CS classes...in the US
15:29
@melak47 Last I checked (well, a long time ago, actually), making NuGet packages wasn't too difficult.
@A.H. I'm not crazy.
@R.MartinhoFernandes we should totally turn it into a group project, Would be SO useful
didn't want to say lounge project because apparently that kills stuff
Lounge<PKG>
with all the smart pointers out there currently, I don't even know what the bestest way to start teaching would be now .. try to shield students from the ugly truth of raw pointers for as long as possible or hit em hard straight away?
@ripDaddy69 as far as resources go, I think I used this. Never did follow the naming convention, though. I seem to recall the lounge didn't approve, however.
@A.H. Sorry, I already don't have as much time as I want for my current project.
user1174868
15:32
I have to learn C for this class :(
@ripDaddy69 don't do it!
C is super easy
user1174868
I like C better than java though
ok hating Java is good
just... write bad c++ without classes, templates, overloads, and don't get used to it
user1174868
15:33
lol
@ripDaddy69 I wrote this answer sometime ago: stackoverflow.com/a/8403699/46642. See if it helps.
TWGOK is awesome. On episode 9
user1174868
@R.MartinhoFernandes Thanks that did help
Hey, @Bartek if I have a Lua extension that comes as a C bit + a Lua bit, and an executable host that provides Lua scripting capabilities (in this case, premake), how I can use the extension from such a script? Do I have to change the host somehow?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Lua comes with a require function that can do that from in-script, if it wasn't disabled for sandbox purposes.
15:41
@DeadMG And what do I do with the C bits?
Just drop a dll on the folder?
@R.MartinhoFernandes no, you can just require
@R.MartinhoFernandes yep
@R.MartinhoFernandes Package them as a DLL and stick them somewhere. Working directory should be fine. You can also set the search path from Lua, I think.
K, thanks. I'll give it a try.
In wider perspective, it's called cpath
by default this variable has . and some system folders
be careful though, as it has weird format
something like /my/folder/?.so/
15:43
probably a Lua pattern.
probably.
never really got into this, I've just silently accepted it
Thanks. I'll call you names if it doesn't work.
what's the main difference between Lua and Tcl? is there any situation where one has a clear advantage over the other?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Can they be kinky names?
@MarcClaesen Lua is ponies and Tcl is unusable piece of crap
now jokes aside, Tcl isn't a proper language
15:44
how so?
@BartekBanachewicz So, if you don't want to use anything, Tcl has a clear advantage.
i c wut u did
@MarcClaesen take scope, for example
In general, everyone I know that's been using Tcl never said anything positive about it
fair enough
I never used either, just wondering which might be worth learning
@BartekBanachewicz You haven't met the right fanboys.
15:46
every now and then I run into them
@MarcClaesen Lua is widely used in games, but not only
however, its base functionality is rather limited
it's great for embedding into stuff, but feels much weaker as a standalone language
unless you combine it with Terra, but that's not standalone anymore, huh?
@BartekBanachewicz I assume neither were meant to be standalone anyway, right?
@R.MartinhoFernandes clearly tcl is awful is more popular, thanks for clearing that up :P
@MarcClaesen Lua is a general-purpose language; however, its main goal was to be small and portable. On an embedded platform it's more than enough
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol
15:48
My totally scientific method proves that Lua > Tcl.
10
here, have a star
@R.MartinhoFernandes you'd be surprised how many comparably scientific methods actually get published as meta-analyses.
Ell
Ell
Hi @bartek!
@JerryCoffin, btw, while we're talking asstronomy, don't forget about assteroids!
Hi @Elliot!
15:51
@BartekBanachewicz We're not talking asstronomy anymore. :<
the joke died a while ago @BartekBanachewicz
L'esprit de l'escalier or l'esprit d'escalier (staircase wit) is a French term used in English that describes the of thinking of the perfect too late. Origin This name for the phenomenon comes from French encyclopedist and philosopher Denis Diderot's description of such a situation in his Paradoxe sur le comédien. During a dinner at the home of statesman Jacques Necker, a remark was made to Diderot which left him speechless at the time, because, he explains, "l’homme sensible, comme moi, tout entier à ce qu’on lui objecte, perd la tête et ne se retrouve qu’au bas de l’escalier" ("...
Ell
Ell
I wonder why its called a scene graph when its a tree
@Ell a tree is a graph
15:53
@Ell <troll> because game programmers are silly </troll>
because a tree is a graph
Ell
Ell
But a graph isn't a tree
(Necessarily)
therefore a scene graph may be a tree
@Ell yes, your screnegraph doesn't have to be a tree
@BartekBanachewicz Diagnosis: you have been watching too much MLP.
Ell
Ell
15:53
When is a scene graph not actually a tree though?
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh :)
Ell
Ell
Cycles in a scene graph can't be good o.O
@Ell when you are lazy
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, not lately
std::list<thing> sceneGraph;
Ell
Ell
15:55
Well that's not even a graph :3
A list is a graph too
> is a French term used in English that describes the of thinking of the perfect too late.
SERIOUSLY
Ell
Ell
I guess a linked list is one
but its a tree then too
@Ell it doesn't have to be linked vOv
@R.MartinhoFernandes I like "escalator wit" (derp)
Why the fuck do they even have wikipedia onebox if it can't even handle text.
@Ell A linked list is a degenerate tree.
@BartekBanachewicz I thought it was "escalator wit"
15:56
welp
@R.MartinhoFernandes uh wat
time to uninstall VS2012 and reinstall it and try that
1 min ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
> is a French term used in English that describes the of thinking of the perfect too late.
Ell
Ell
googles degenerate tree
@BartekBanachewicz From onebox above.
15:57
@R.MartinhoFernandes uh wat -> wikipedia
@DeadMG maybe you just have to rebuild clang with VS 2013? :3
that could not possibly be of any use whatsoever
it'll be fun!
it'll take 3-4 hours during which my machine is unusable
16:01
@thecoshman ever since stylecop was introduced at my previous gig, XML documentation was mandatory at classes/methods. The upshot: everything got littered with autogenerated, nothing-saying crufty "documentation" comments.
@thecoshman repost
@thecoshman my pc has a volume button
user1174868
ah man it is so difficult to search for c
user1174868
why does citigroup keep coming up?
because they want you!
@sehe "Toes the string"?
@R.MartinhoFernandes My mind is the product of millions of years of evolution. It doesn't get much more "empirically proven" than that, right?
@R.MartinhoFernandes that kind of cruft, too, yes
16:09
@sehe what? have the comments with the code? That sounds far to convenient. You clearly need at least three separate documents covering different aspects of the library you want to use.
user1174868
If I am reading code examples and I see ... wtf does that mean?
@ripDaddy69 It could be just a way for the author to skip irrelevant details (i.e. pretend something appropriate is in that spot), or it could mean variadic arguments.
user1174868
ugh
user1174868
damn english second language instructors
user1174868
Actually that is unfair, he is probably just a bad instructor regardless of his english skills
user1174868
16:16
I think most programmers or CS students own a laptop
user1174868
I am starting to consider getting one
@DeadMG I suppose I need a build linking with the same Lua interpreter version, right?
Or is there some ABI compatibility?
@R.MartinhoFernandes there is. It sometimes depends on the interface of the library
user1804599
Ugh.
libraries meant for Lua usually expose a function to load the insides
you might also go the rough way and use Alien sometimes
user1804599
16:25
Somebody from Pakistan wrote completely unindented PHP code with variable names automatically translated to Dutch.
user1804599
With base-64-encoded SQL queries in the query string!
For your workplace?
user1804599
No, thank God.
Ell
Ell
@bananu7 what are we going to do about gldr?
Oops
This guy is so right about js libraries
there are just shit loads of them
16:32
@sehe I give up. What's the S?
@not-rightfold unindented ? Really?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Pretty sure that Lua is ABI-compatible across minor versions, and pretty much nobody uses anything except 5.1
@DeadMG Whats ABI Compatible?
The binary interface is compatible.
If component A1.0 is ABI-compatible with A1.1, and you have component B that interacts with A1.0 through a binary boundary (like a .dll/.so), you can change to A1.1 without needing to recompile B.
Apparently I did WHMIS early.
16:39
If A2.0 breaks ABI-compatibility, but is still API-compatible, you can simply recompile B against the A2.0 ABI and it works with A2.0. If A3.0 breaks both the ABI and the API, you need to actually change B's source to get it working and then compile again.
@R.MartinhoFernandes That makes perfect sense. So ideally, minor version releases remain ABI compatible, and major ones more often then not, break the compatibility. Right?
@GamesBrainiac That's just a convention, but yeah, I'd say an ABI breakage is enough to warrant a major version bump.
@R.MartinhoFernandes +12 on the SO question
@R.MartinhoFernandes Thanks. Also, I'm guessing that Languages like Python don't need to worry about things like this? Since they're not compiled. The only thing that changes for us is the API
@GamesBrainiac Yeah, it only matters when there's a binary interface. Common Python usage sticks to source interfaces.
16:45
@R.MartinhoFernandes One last thing. C++ is compiled, right? Would something like LLVM actually compile it to bytecode or machine-code? Because the very idea of a VM means, that it takes in byte-code, right? Or am I just too used to JVM and .NET?
How wonderfully helpful we are tonight
hehe
@GamesBrainiac Usually, yes, C++ is compiled (there are several C++ interpreters in the wild). Hmm, LLVM is a terrible name (they got stuck with it for historical reasons). It's not really a VM.
@CaptainGiraffe @R.MartinhoFernandes usually is. So is Mooing Duck, and Zoid and Dead and a load of other guys. Come to think of it, they're all really helpful if there's no chat room war going on! :P
The JVM works more or less as a common ABI that is stable across platforms.
user1804599
> TOAST usurps two bits of the varlena length word
16:47
@R.MartinhoFernandes Then what is it?
user1804599
This is the first time I've ever seen the word “usurps”.
@GamesBrainiac It's a compiler infrastructure. It does have uses for creating that sort of VMs, but it isn't one per se and that is not its sole use case.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Screen (it's in the linked link to an urban dictionary, look for "alternatives")
It grew in scope and the name stuck.
Cheers all, out of office
16:50
@sehe That makes no sense.
How do you pipe coffee through the screen into the keyboard?
Bendy straws, with a hammer?
@R.MartinhoFernandes I get the compiler part, what does the infrastructure entail?
@GamesBrainiac You need to know about object files, virtual machines and MSIL and a whole lot of stuffs.
16:52
@CaptainGiraffe I understand virtual machines, but the other stuff, I don't
But I do get this, LLVM is supposed to make shit go faster
@GamesBrainiac Well, it provides the basic tools you need to write compilers of all sorts. Optimiser, JIT code emitter, linker (not sure what's the current state of this one, but it's the thought that counts), etc.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Okay, since I don't get all that. What does it do to make C++ faster? What is special about it?
user1804599
Hmm.
user1804599
How can I create a file, returning an error if it already exists?
@GamesBrainiac I don't think there is anything special, really. Does it really generate better code in general?
Clang is meant to compile C++ faster, but that's a different matter.
16:55
@R.MartinhoFernandes A hypothesis, observation, and observable experiment? Checks out.
@not-rightfold Now that is wizardry shit.
user1804599
Hmm. open(path, O_CREAT | O_EXCL).
@GamesBrainiac AFAIK GCC-generated code consistently outperformed LLVM-generated code for a while, and now the two are on par with each other.
Clang bitches about some things I swear are valid
@R.MartinhoFernandes I ask this, because the PyPy team was talking about a LLVM backend. I did not understand what they meant. I'm trying to find that part in the FAQ
16:58
That said, LLVM has shown great speed improvements in compilers for other languages.
GHC has three code generation backends: C--, generate C code and compile with GCC, and LLVM. LLVM is consistently better than the other two.
@GamesBrainiac The good thing about that is that they don't need to invest many many man-hours in getting a good optimiser: the LLVM folks did that already.

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