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8:04 AM
SOCVR’s 10th room meeting will be held here today, 2019-04-25, at 20:00UTC. The meeting is planned to last one hour. The schedule for this room should convert the meeting time to your local timezone.
Please, do not request access. The room is currently in gallery mode. It will be unlocked prior to the room meeting. Everyone will be able to participate when the room meeting starts.
 
 
9 hours later…
5:29 PM
The agenda is:
Other issues have been deferred due to a lack of time.
It’s a good idea to read the issues on GitHub to be familiar with the issue and responses other people have already posted.
If you have a longer comment you wish to make during the meeting, it’s beneficial to compose it prior to the meeting, as the discussion can go quite quickly.
 
 
2 hours later…
7:30 PM
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7:56 PM
Hello everyone, and welcome to SOCVR's 10th room meeting. We'll start with some intro messages then get right into the topics. As a reminder, you can find them here.
General reminder: please be nice to each other. Please keep the conversation on topic, and the no one-box rule applies here. Please use stars sparingly. RO's will clear stars after each topic ends.
The room will be in a timeout for 1 minute at the start of each topic. Use this time to write up your long messages. Once the room has nothing left to add to the conversation, we'll move on to the next topic. The RO's will write up a summary of each topic’s outcome and add it to the room information repo after the meeting.
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We have 6 topics to work through. We'll try to get through as many as we can in an hour. Max of 10 minutes per topic. Topics we don't get to will be at the next meeting, if still applicable.
room mode changed to Public: anyone may enter and talk
The first comment on the GitHub issue indicates that requests from queues other than the CV Review queue are generally about questions that have recent activity, so are unlikely to run into this issue.
Thus, the issue largely boils down to: Should we permit questions which the user encounters in the Close Vote Review queue to have cv-pls requests posted regardless of a lack of other activity. However, the GitHub issue does not actually limit itself to only CV Review queue, so other queues should be considered wrt. corner cases where the question is not otherwise active.
 
It makes sense for the suggested edit queue. Even though the post isn't active yet, there's a non-negligible chance it will become active soon
 
The key issue there was suggested edits letting a CV be possible, but not a CVQ. The latter is generally unnecessary since it's already in the CVQ
 
" Should we permit questions which the user encounters in the Close Vote Review queue to have cv-pls requests posted regardless of a lack of other activity". That is the one queue I would definitely rule out.
 
My main problem with counting being in the CV queue as "active" is that it basically opens up cv-pls to any question which has a close-vote. There are a huge number of questions in the CV queue. cv-pls has generally been reserved for questions where the community benefits from the question being handled quickly, or where the normal process has a history of failing (low-traffic tags)
 
Maybe if the vote is valid, but about to age due to the backlog in the queue?
 
8:02 PM
Should we be starring points we agree with at this stage?
 
yes
 
I would go for "if there's a chance it will become active". Allowing stuff from CVQ seems counter-productive most of the time.
 
Stars will be cleared between topics
 
@gparyani hardly to enforce
 
I don't think we should allow any queue to circumvent the 'active' requirement
 
8:03 PM
@JohnDvorak I like that, yes
 
If we allow any of them, it should be the CVQ, though, as that's the one that has the most bearing on keeping question lists clean, and that's what we're primarily about anyway (CVs)
 
@JohnDvorak That sounds vague. There's always a chance something becomes active. Are we just talking about suggested edits?
 
CVQ doesn't tell you who voted for what. So i could end-run the age rules entirely by VTC, then finding the review and using that to justify a CV
 
We don't want to inconvenience people by asking them to sit at a review task to see if robots win the race and we need to close it
 
@Machavity Will they be kept logged separately?
 
8:05 PM
@ErikA chance because pending edit, yes
 
@gparyani The room itself is a log (hence why we do these in another room)
 
@gparyani Yeah, I learned from the last meeting that I needed to take a screenshot prior to clearing them.
 
I don't think any other queue can cause a bump
 
5 minute warning
 
@Machavity when you clear stars it clears them from the transcript
 
8:06 PM
@TylerH Ah. We'll screenshot them as Makyen said
 
It's really annoying to vote to close a really old question, only for it to hang around in the CV queue and eventually age after four days
 
... unless somebody edits from the queue, that is. I'd count that as negligible in the usual case.
 
The thing is, some users may use them as "evidence" that their much more recent question is valid. So IMO we should close those questions.
 
@gparyani as if having it age away in SOCVR is any better
 
@JohnDvorak But if someone edits from the queue, then the question is active.
 
8:07 PM
@gparyani I agree. I think it's annoying as I often have questions I would like to cv-pls but can't, so I would definitely benefit from this rule. But, I think the rule is a good one and we don't IMHO have a need to be able to cv-pls more stuff than we already can
 
Note: we only have 3 minutes left for this topic. Please make any final arguments. We need to get some resolution soon to keep on track.
 
@gparyani we can't close all those questions
 
We're already chronically short on CVs each day
 
@gparyani broken windows are a cv-pls reason already, pending review or not
 
So suggested edits yes and CVQ: No?
 
8:08 PM
I say no to all queues
 
Also keep the exceptions we already have
 
I think it should also be allowed if another question cites it as "evidence" for their own question, and the requester cites that newer question in their link, even if that earlier question itself doesn't have recent activity.
 
@JohnDvorak We have current exceptions?
 
@TylerH broken windows
 
@TylerH we've already gotten too little doing too much... it's meant to be the other way around :(
 
8:08 PM
...even if that earlier question itself doesn't have any recent activity
 
@TylerH i think we need to keep that in mind and signal if it turns into a problem
 
To be clear, we're just saying that this is another way for the question to be considered "active". It does not exclude you from posting a cv-pls from a queue if the question is otherwise active.
Discussion of this topic is over. The room will be frozen for one minute before the start of the next topic.
 
@Makyen That would be brutal - and prone to abuse :P
 
This room was placed in timeout for 1 minute; Next topic
> There are no official rules on this, but perhaps we need to amend Rule 11 as such
> 1. Questions under active Meta discussion about what to do should be off-limits. For our purposes here, an active Meta discussion is where the course of action is unclear and changing.
> 2. Any request (*-pls) prompted by a recently active Meta discussion should disclose that. Voters are held accountable for their votes and not disclosing that opens voters to potential liability on Meta
> We also probably need to amend Rule 15
> • If you previously took visible action(s) on a question or answer (i.e. closed, re-opened, etc), and those action(s) are called into question on Meta, then you are considered "involved" with that question
 
Agreed on all counts. We should not be influencing a post being actively discussed on Meta. The Meta effect is already too powerful as it is.
 
8:11 PM
+1 on required disclosure (if it's allowed at all)
 
we’re not above meta. If it is discussed on Meta it stays there. No actions from within/by the room
 
IMHO if it's on meta, leave it there. If you want to weigh in leave a comment/answer on the meta post.
 
it comes down to the traditional COI
 
+1 here for no requests related to recent meta posts. We're here for posts that don't get enough attention, things that are on there nearly always do.
 
8:13 PM
One case to note is if the requester simply doesn't know there's a meta thread on the question
 
@JonClements Is that a fish?
 
Agree with the motion as proposed. Meta > us
 
@JohnDvorak in that case once it's been mentioned a RO should probably move it
 
I also vote for us participating on that meta post being allowed
 
@JohnDvorak true, if that is a one-time accident.
 
8:14 PM
@JohnDvorak Yes, but that can easily be handled by informing them. It's not like we're saying the offense merits capital punishment.
 
@rene weigh in matter as any user is allowed to do, but don't involve SOCVR in it
 
@JohnDvorak To resolve that case, other sites have started posting comments on such questions, "this question is being discussed on meta [link]". Should we do the same?
 
@JonClements yes
 
@gparyani That appears to happen most of the time already. It's also helpful from the OP's POV.
 
@gparyani I I'll allow tthat
 
8:15 PM
5 minute warning
 
I also don't feel like taking the responsibility to
 
@rene "new" meta users tend to "call out" users...
sometimes deliberately, sometimes not
 
@gparyani Yes, that's a good disclosure step to take in pretty much every case
 
you've all been around to known how it works
 
Many users who are even veterans of main don't spend much time on Meta so may not know a question they're interested in is about to be/currently being mobbed
 
8:18 PM
@JohnDvorak IMO, users should be permitted to participate on any Meta post as individual. Officially participating as a room, should be a very rare event and only after discussion among the ROs.
Note: we only have 3 minutes left for this topic. Please make any final arguments. We need to get some resolution soon to keep on track.
 
But I don't want the room to be flooded with links to meta posts that are being discussed.
 
@Makyen true
 
@rene Comments on posts, not chat messages
 
dbc
Just a practical question from a non-full-time participant: if I come across a question that seems to need closing, will I need to search meta before making a cv-pls request?
 
@dbc no
 
8:19 PM
phew
 
It looks like we have consensus: Once it's on Meta, requests in the room are not permitted.
Discussion of this topic is over. The room will be frozen for one minute before the start of the next topic.
 
@dbc actually, some people are leaving comments if a question is discussed on Meta
 
So, just don't go CVing things you found on meta, say it if it gets on there, then all is well?
 
@dbc No. We operate on trust. But if you know there's a Meta, don't run to SOCVR to take action. That was was prompted this
 
8:20 PM
@dbc rene is required to but no one else is
 
This room was placed in timeout for 1 minute; Next topic
 
Requests are archived after a set period even when the request has not been completed: cv-pls/reopen-pls after 3 days; del-pls/undel-pls after 7 days.
Paraphrased: “Should we permit a single repost of a request after the request has been moved to the Graveyard without being complete.”
The first comment on the GitHub issue has some arguments for and against.
 
I think we should impose a waiting period at the very least
 
I think we should not allow it
 
8:22 PM
I think we should allow it
 
increase the days a request is aged away to when a CV/reopen vote ages away?
 
I say we don't bother. We have a system in place already to let people see old CVs for a time before binning them
 
I'd argue it's no longer active if your vote has timed out (vote no)
 
we're not here to bring a post in a state you want it to be in
 
@JohnDvorak votes don't change a question's 'last active' date
 
8:22 PM
Stars on each message represent a vote?
 
yeah
 
I'm for allowing it. Disallowing it is impractical to enforce anyway, you'd need to keep track of what's been CV-pls'ed
 
@rene we sort of are here for exactly that reason; we want close-worthy Qs to be closed.
 
I mean, it shouldn't count as active just because your CV has just run out
 
@JohnDvorak agreed, this wouldn't change that
 
8:23 PM
I'm generally OK with a single repost. There have been a number of questions which I've seen expire which can/should be actioned. This appears to normally be because the request was made at a slow time of day, or the request reason was poorly stated. Permitting a single repost would help alleviate this.
 
There is one thing: even if it were to be allowed, it should be disallowed if it's immediately after it was binned
 
it only changes the rule that you can't ever re-request a cv-pls after it's been binned/requested, to being able to re-request once
 
dbc
Just to be clear, we are voting whether to allow reposting of a cv-pls by the same person right? I think I may once have submitted a cv-pls for something Makyen proposed to close 2 years previously (because he had left a comment).
 
fair enough
 
I'm not sure what that mean either
 
8:24 PM
Why not allow reposting multiple times if it's still active?
 
@JohnDvorak that's a separate question/issue
 
@dbc either by the same or a different user
 
My proposal: it should be allowed, but only after a 7-day waiting period (from the time it was binned), and only if there was new activity in between
 
If the room doesn't care enough to act on it in the 3/7 days it gets, I'm fine with leaving it alone. It's had its chance. Trying to monitor this is going to be a nightmare if we say you get N reposts. If it missed it's chance, oh well, move on.
 
@dbc none of these rules are perfect; in such a case as that one we probably wouldn't catch it, and that's OK
@NathanOliver we act on other rules as a n honor system, why not this one?
E.g. only look up for previous requests if there's some hint of abuse
Like Makyen, I've seen some posts that get cv-pls'd that definitely should be closed, but miss out due to the time the cv-pls was posted
 
8:26 PM
mods have destroyed more amounts than you'd like if that make a difference
 
@gparyani I disagree with that. On questions with >100 views that means the existing CV will have aged away and you're starting from 0.
5 minute warning
 
I'm likely to forget my previous requests if my CV had time to age out
 
@JonClements not sure I follow what this is in response to
 
I'm all for honor system. If someone cares enough to re-request one specific one let them, just don't make a habit of it
 
@TylerH Probably wrong room
 
dbc
8:27 PM
Another query from a non-full-time user: how can I know I'm not making a re-request of somebody else's cv-pls?
 
@dbc again, you can't know for certain without doing an exhaustive search.
 
@JohnDvorak We're not strictly monitoring it, we just don't want this to be a willful thing
 
@dbc search the graveyard (if you really want to know)
 
Hence, honor system
 
@JohnDvorak The alpha version of the Request Generator will remember them for as long as you tell it to (i.e. length of time is a user-option).
 
8:27 PM
It seems a waste of time trying to enforce people not doing this, unless they're making a habit of it and irritating people
 
ROs already move stuff to the graveyard they know has already been requested
 
@dbc that Graveyard is a chatroom, not the real thing ...
 
@StephenKennedy unless we can make a bot do it, which I suppose we can
 
Note: we only have 3 minutes left for this topic. Please make any final arguments. We need to get some resolution soon to keep on track.
 
let's go for a single repost
no further strings attached, I don't like to babysit
 
8:29 PM
I can live with that, and was abt to add a similar disclaimer
 
dbc
I can agree that disallowing re-posting your own cv-pls makes sense (since we're on the honor system, you should remember), but adding the expectation to check for others' request seems a little burdensome.
 
Let's not ask people to search the graveyard each time...
 
@dbc It's not intended to add that, IMO. Just that it gets handled when noticed.
 
@dbc yeah, that would need tooling. That is insane
 
@JohnDvorak absolutely not
 
8:31 PM
phew
 
It looks like we've reached a consensus. Discussion of this topic is over. The room will be frozen for one minute before the start of the next topic.
*This room was placed in timeout for 1 minute; Next topic
*
 
The issue is primarily about deleting bad answers.
If we are going to encourage such cleanup, how should we organize it? (Suggested potential organization methods “Keep a list for 20k, userscript with special tag?”)
 
No, I think we should leave canonical cleanup to subject-matter experts. They can create a focused chatroom for it if necessary. Asking non-SMEs to contribute so heavily runs the risk of a poor job being done.
 
we already have , though no generator so far
 
8:33 PM
I upvoted Machavity's reply on the GH issue - allow del-pls but other than that, it's nothing to do with us
 
@JohnDvorak The alpha version of the Request Generator does all types of requests.
 
@TylerH there's plenty of clear-cut stuff non-experts can do
deleting non-answers found during clean up, we are totally capable of
 
dbc
In this context what does "bad answer" mean? 1) Technically erroneous. 2) No longer conforming with site rules (e.g. a product recommendation)?
 
@JohnDvorak non-answers can be flagged outside of a cleanup effort though
and mods can delete them (saving our precious delete votes)
 
@dbc Yes, all of those, and/or repeats of the same answer
 
8:35 PM
@JohnDvorak In which case, isolated del-pls requests should be fine, but the question is should we be actively encouraging using SOCVR for cleaning up such questions beyond that.
 
I'm for delv-pls on anything that's not NAA but is actively harmful (e.g. incorrect/insecure/duplicate/generally bad advice). Just only vote if you're knowledgeable enough, don't go on trust, as always. NAA queue works well for other stuff. I don't think we need additional tools/organization, it's a rare enough situation and delv-pls generally works pretty fast.
 
So... don't ask us to provide expert knowledge, but if it's something we can do, go for it?
 
that also ^
 
@ErikA All of incorrect/insecure/duplicate/generally bad advice is not reason for delete votes per the site guidance: stackoverflow.com/help/privileges/trusted-user
 
I'd say: SOCVR is willing to have del-pls requests for answers which qualify under our normal rules. In general, these should not be ones which require subject matter expertise. However, SOCVR won't organize cleanup of canonical questions, as that's best left to rooms where people with SME hang out.
 
dbc
8:38 PM
I'm a little wary about encouraging deletion of highly-voted "historical" answers that are mainly tool recommendations. See e.g. How to auto-generate a C# class file from a JSON object string. This is now considered off-topic but is nevertheless useful. Should we be encouraging deletion of something like this?
 
no, we should not be actively encouraging using SOCVR for cleaning up such questions beyond allowing a del-pls
 
5 minute warning
 
@dbc no, but clean-up of answers, yes. There is one deleted answer there for example. SOCVR could have done that
 
@NathanOliver Well, that's a subset of extremely low quality. In all those cases there's no scope to improve, you can't turn bad advice into good one without substantially changing the answer, for example.
 
@dbc only negative scoring answers can be manually deleted.
 
8:40 PM
Note: we only have 3 minutes left for this topic. Please make any final arguments. We need to get some resolution soon to keep on track.
^ OK that wasn't really needed
 
@ErikA That's what votes are for. Wrong, insecure, bad advice answer should be down voted. The delete votes are for things that qualify as VLQ.
 
dbc
@NathanOliver Oh right. (I don't vote to delete that often, and forgot.) This now seems somewhat safer.
 
I tend to agree. 20k requests are fine as long as you explain them, but a deliberate "cleanup" requires domain knowledge
 
@NathanOliver which you frustratingly can't flag for after like 3 days of the post's existence...
 
@Makyen what is the resolution?
 
8:42 PM
I think Stephen's 6 star is the resolution. No cleanups
 
Okay
 
@rene we won't organize cleanups of canonicals, but we allow deletion requests for specific posts that don't require expert knowledge
 
@rene It looks like we will not be encouraging cleanup of canonical questions, but will support del-pls requests under our normal rules.
 
@TylerH Right, the VLQ flag is gone but we can still delete it. Telling someone to recursively delete a linked list though shouldn't be manually deleted, just down voted to oblivion.
 
It looks like we've reached a consensus. Discussion of this topic is over. The room will be frozen for one minute before the start of the next topic.
This room was placed in timeout for 1 minute; Next topic
 
> Whether at least two non-requesting*, non-RO SOCVR members, providing clear and objective reasoning that a -pls request uses incorrect/inaccurate reasons--barring a logical/reasoned explanation for the choice by the requestor*--qualifies said request for being manually binned by an RO (who should obviously agree with said consensus).
> This means a total of three users (two normal and one RO) should agree explicitly (the two normal users by saying something, and the RO by binning) that the request is wrong/incorrect.
 
Sorry in advance for the length of this one... when I drew it up I didn't realize there was a prior FAQ. This would essentially allow non-ROs to play a part in a wrong request
 
I'm not fan of hyperactive binning, but three yay-votes seems pretty damning.
 
I think the current faq approach is the right one. These are edge cases anyway, and it will boil down to the RO agreeing with the current situation and the proposed situation anyway
 
I'd distinguish between "please explain yourself" from "definitely invalid request", too.
 
8:46 PM
I'm no the fence about whether this would mean Ros would no longer have carte blanche on the final verdict
 
I'm for reducing the binnings below the current rates (one RO's opinion makes it go bye-bye = bad).
 
Too many words
 
ROs will always have a final verdict. That's a major reason we're here. Eventually you need someone to make the final call either way
 
FWIW I want to say I have noticed that ROs typically tend to hold off on when room members point out a wrong request
rather than weighing in and binning a request
which seems problematic, to me.
 
There's not that much harm in keeping invalid requests slightly too long
 
8:48 PM
The idea here would be that the room could influence a RO to bin something
 
@JohnDvorak Requests get binned very rarely, other than those where the requestor asks for it to be binned. It's probably well below 1%.
 
@TylerH We don't always weigh in publically. Sometimes having a RO jump in adds too much (for lack of a better term) gravity
 
@JohnDvorak I have seen at least two cases (one yesterday and one that prompted this proposal) where a blatantly wrong cv-pls request caused a question to be wrongly closed, so I would say there is indeed some harm
 
I think RO's are held accountable when things go wrong in the current situation as well, and it doesn't go wrong. We shouldn't really go fixing imaginary problems imo
 
@TylerH It is a bit like an NAA flag you raise for a mod. I'm not an SME on all the cv-pls I see
 
8:49 PM
Speaking of which, I really appreciate the "as requested by original requester" note in binnings, BTW
 
@Machavity Sure, I acknowledge that, of course, and like rene said, not every subject is one ROs are knowledgeable in
IIRC, though, these were subject-agnostic cases
 
I tend to prefer convincing the OP that they should request the bin themselves
 
^ that's my preference too.
 
@Machavity you think that has a high response rate?
 
@TylerH At least give OP the chance to reply before you trash their request
 
8:50 PM
@TylerH at least for me it has.
 
@TylerH High? Maybe not. But I have seen it at work. We regularly discuss CVs and we ping the OP as needed
 
oh I'm misunderstanding what OP means here
I read OP to mean "the person who asked the question on Main"
not the person who made the request
 
OR?
 
Oh, sorry. I mean the OP of the CV
 
ah
Well the issue there is, on both cases I mentioned previously, the requestor refused to acknowledge any error/mishandling
 
8:51 PM
I'd be surprised if anyone protested against trashing a request to close their question
@TylerH then I'd rather it not be trashed
But then again, three votes is three votes
 
@JohnDvorak even if it's definitively and demonstrably wrong?
 
I'm fine with a three-vote system.
 
I'm not opposed to appealing to an RO when something is seriously deficient. We do have rules and you can already ping us when they're violated
 
5 minute warning
 
@Machavity to be fair, I don't think a RO was pinged directly in either of the cases I referenced (though at least one was active in the room at the times...)
 
8:53 PM
Three votes, and even then only start voting after it's clear you can't convince the OR?
 
@JohnDvorak I'd agree w/ that
 
To be clear: 3 room voters agree with a bin request, then ping a RO to request a bin?
 
Note: we only have 3 minutes left for this topic. Please make any final arguments. We need to get some resolution soon to keep on track.
 
Two regulars + RO
But if you want to go stricter... be my guest :P
 
the RO has to agree, right?
 
8:55 PM
@rene Well, yes, obviously
if they don't agree why would they bin the request
 
just checking
 
@TylerH finger guns
 
Alright, final wording them
 
FWIW the topic on GitHub specifies 3 total (2 regulars + RO)
 
What happens if 2 people agree it should stay (disregarding the requester) and 2 people vote against?
 
8:56 PM
My earlier comment was not meant to be flippant. We don't want the FAQ/rules to become biblical in length. If there is to be a new policy it needs to be concise.
 
@NathanOliver tie goes to the RO?
 
@NathanOliver Good point
 
Ah, I vote for a difference of two votes
 
hopefully we wont have two people defending a blatantly wrong CV-pls reason...
 
Or do votes subtract so it's now at 0?
 
8:56 PM
@Makyen suddenly we need more than 3 minutes...
 
I'd like a difference of votes to be 2, if it arises.
 
OK we need to wrap this up. Do we have a consensus?
 
Difference of 2 + RO
 
works for me
 
If two people agree with a bin request, they ping an RO and leave it up to that RO's discretion. RO is free to disagree
 
8:57 PM
same
 
Any you must have pinged the original requestor asking for their input.
 
@Machavity yep
 
dbc
Votes are stars next to message, right? Does that mean the RO will need to total the stars for binning, and total the stars for the original request, and net them out?
 
We need to move on. Discussion of this topic is over. The room will be frozen for one minute before the start of the next topic.
This room was placed in timeout for 1 minute; Next topic
> As noted elsewhere, the current FAQ page is somewhat bulky and cumbersome. With nothing but a single list of rules, adding new rules is difficult and has lead to some bulky rules in the middle.
> Counter argument: It would be nice to avoid overlapping numbers for the rules in the different sections. Currently in SOCVR chat people write helpful things like "see FAQ rule 99", which is short and easy to write. The new style FAQ would need something like "see FAQ section Moderation Request Rules, rule 99" to avoid confusion with other sections, such as the 'Q&A Interaction rules'
 
9:00 PM
I haven't read the FAQ rewrite proposal exhaustively but I'm in fan of a rewrite for conciseness, and I trust Machavity's work
 
+1 on keeping short unique identifiers for each rule. Doesn't have to be numbers, but it should be short.
 
@dbc no, I would just tally the aye's and the no's
 
Any major rewrites are going to be a ton of work
 
Mostly this was something I threw together due to a comment gunr made in another GH. We have 27 rules and adding new rules is difficult at present
 
yes
 
9:01 PM
I like having a FAQ that's more organized. My main concern with the re-write is basically the same as @AdrianHHH's (1): referencing in the room. I think that having multiple things with the same number will result in confusion when people are talking about rules in the room. Unless we have a clear way to identify each item, in a way that shows a unique reference to the item when people are viewing the FAQ page, I think that we're going to have ongoing communication issues.
 
If you can avoid renumberings by using something like 14a4, go for it dawg
 
remember wayback: chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/108179/conversation/… ... nothing really happened
 
We like for the rules to be organized, but they really aren't anymore. Rule 27 is really more closely related to Rule 15 (which is already huge)
 
Given that we have links that don't depend on the numbers, I'd have no problem with us just renumbering.
 
so 15b/g/n/az? :P
 
9:02 PM
I have no major invested time in this, so I am open to better ways to organize them
 
That's not short
 
zip it
 
"APR07a" is short. But also messy.
 
So... any suggestions on how to improve the page?
 
15.4b
 
9:04 PM
Surely you'd number by section?
 
Shouldn't we leave suggestions to GitHub? THis is just a vote on whether it should be undertaken
We surely can't expect to rework aspects of the FAQ in a 10 minute room meeting...
 
vote yes to having short identifiers that are unique across the FAQ
 
I'm trying to refer to them as Section #X (i.e. see Moderation Rule #13)
 
^ That's what I was trying to say too
 
Note: we only have 3 minutes left for this topic. Please make any final arguments. We need to get some resolution soon to keep on track.
 
dbc
9:06 PM
One thing I might suggest: currently the "rules" on socvr.org are under a page titled "FAQ". It's non-obvious to newbies that rules would be found in the Frequently Asked Questions page. Could the text header be changed to "Rules & FAQ"? Generally I deal with long FAQ pages by searching for some question I have that I think might be frequently asked, rather than reading sequentially.
 
@JohnDvorak The identifiers (as far as links) will be the same. Makyen wisely tied them to the rule, not the number
 
I would expect rules to be a part of FAQ
 
I disagree; rules aren't FAQ
rules are long and laborious by nature
FAQ should be short and to the point and about the site or the room, etc.
 
@dbc yes, that bothers me as well.
 
@Machavity this should have an extra star. I am out of votes.
 
9:07 PM
questions about rules can be directed to the rules themselves
 
Vote meh on rename FAQ to FAQ + rules
 
FAQ the rules?
 
The FAQ rules.
 
I'm not opposed to more work in GitHub. Do we have consensus about breaking the numbers up?
 
I think we should go ahead with a FAQ / Rules reshuffle but workout on GitHub how exactly it should be done.
 
9:08 PM
We can sweat the details later
 
Subnumbering would make maintenance easier, and I don't see a reason to keep just numbers
 
@Machavity yes, maybe keep a reference (old -> new)
 
@JohnDvorak The FAQ is Markdown, which makes using things other than numbers more difficult.
 
That's a dereference, not a reference :P
 
dbc
@JohnDvorak All I can say is that I missed picking on on the fact that "FAQ / Quick Reference" contained rules when I first started participating and scanned though socvr.org. Maybe my rtfm skills need improving.
 
9:10 PM
@Makyen four spaces of indentation for an easy 15.3 scheme
Fine then. Rename FAQ.
 
Do we have a consensus?
 
yes
 
looks like it, yes
 
yep
 
Discussion of this topic is over.
This concludes this room meeting. A summary of conclusions will be written and placed on the SOCVR website in the near future.
The results of the RO elections will be announced shortly
We'll keep this room open for another 30 minutes, then lock it until the next meeting. Thanks all for participating!
 
9:12 PM
\o/
 
I only have 48 minutes before I have to lie to my doctor about my sleep schedule :P
 
We have 9 open issues. Same time next week? :)
 
(g'night)
 
night o/
 
9:14 PM
Vote yay on having another meeting soon
 
9:54 PM
Makyen has removed an event from this room's schedule.
 
10:07 PM
room mode changed to Gallery: anyone may enter, but only approved users can talk
 

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